The Belief for everlasting punishment for finite trangressions agaist god

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Reply Fri 22 May, 2009 06:30 am
Greetings folks this is a hot topic, fundamentalist Christians and some other religions
believe that if you don't reach some sort of epiphany and convert in the absolute, like being Born Again , no matter how good you are you will be punished forever in hell

The idea is good people don't go to heaven only believers go to heaven, of course meaning that you must believe exactly as they believe to get gods favor and go to heaven

Human goodness equates to unspeakable depravity when compared to the absolute holiness purity and perfection of God

Hitler's hatred of the Jews presumably knew no bounds, for true hatred takes nothing to be too bad for the one we hate. It involves wanting and even willing someone's endless suffering. Hitler's actual atrocities can probably be quantified, for they were bounded by the limits that nature and nature's God has put on what an evil man can actually do.

But God, looking upon Hitler's heart, saw him willing on the Jews a quantitatively endless world of grief. God must make Hitler feel and acknowledge the wickedness of that desire if He is to show him his culpability's full depth.

Only then will Hitler apprehend himself truthfully. And so only that will begin to repair the moral order and quiet the anguish his unrequited wrong-doing stirs in our hearts. Yet Hitler cannot grasp the limitlessness of his evil intentions all at once, even after death; and so he will he have to endure drinking the dregs of God's righteous wrath everlastingly?

Of course Hitler and the best of us to God are equally evil,.to god even the minutest fragment of evil is unimaginably repugnant to God (that is the fundamentalist view NOT MINE SO DON'T JUMP ON ME)

Peace Alan
 
xris
 
Reply Fri 22 May, 2009 09:30 am
@Alan McDougall,
I hope that an awakening of the conscience that has been subdued by the individuals free will is the punishment inflicted on the evil.Can you imagine the enormity of the horror for Hitler if he faced his actions.Moral individuals can suffer by their mistakes for days contemplating their wrong, can you imagine how much pain and for how long realising your evil.I have had nightmares where i imagine i have murdered and the sick feeling it gave me,to murder in reality for the moral person must be an unbearable burden.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Fri 22 May, 2009 11:39 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
I hope that an awakening of the conscience that has been subdued by the individuals free will is the punishment inflicted on the evil.Can you imagine the enormity of the horror for Hitler if he faced his actions.Moral individuals can suffer by their mistakes for days contemplating their wrong, can you imagine how much pain and for how long realising your evil.I have had nightmares where i imagine i have murdered and the sick feeling it gave me,to murder in reality for the moral person must be an unbearable burden.


Yes xris whether we believe in some sort of eternal accountability or not for our action in life, both good or bad, I would not have liked to have being in Hitlers shoes when he committed suicide

I watched a TV documentary on Hitler the other day, where he was reduced to a pathetic defeated very mortal man He came out of his bunker to congratulate the last few soldiers "Hitler youths", young boys in fact , who still fought for this madman in the face of death

He held his right arm behind his back and his right hand was trembling terribly with maybe Parkinson's disease

Strangely I have had similar dreams to yours, where I have murderer someone and felt the aweful realization of the deed and the consequences

I am a kindly old critter and wonder why I could dream this kind of nightmare. Maybe it is a type of telepathy , tapping into the mind of a psychopath

The other day I watched a low budget CD movie called Gruesome, try and get it it is really good (not religious xris) But relates very much to your post

If you live by the sword you will die by the sword

Peace

Alan
 
Krumple
 
Reply Fri 22 May, 2009 11:58 am
@Alan McDougall,
Quote:
believe that if you don't reach some sort of epiphany and convert in the absolute, like being Born Again , no matter how good you are you will be punished forever in hell
There is so many ridiculous things about this belief.

First off, Hitler was religious.

Secondly, you don't know if Hitler asked god for forgiveness before he died.
People just all assume he didn't or that his actions resulted in him going to hell, but you have absolutely no idea.

Third, you don't even know if the Holocaust was gods will and it was through Hitler that it was conducted. Therefore Hitler might be a proponent of god, so why would god torture him?

Fourth, if god punishes the good people because they have not chosen to accept Jesus or god, then god is not even worthy of being called a god.

Fith, if you can commit sin and be forgiven for sin then why doesn't everyone sin to the maximum and then just ask for forgiveness later? It seems a little silly to try to avoid sin if you are going to be forgiven for it anyways.

Sixth, if heaven or hell is eternal then their reward or punishment do not equal the crime so it would be unjust to torture a being for eternity for something they did that was comparatively short in scale. This would make god once again, unjust.

Seventh, why would your soul have any information about you in the next world? Your brain and memories carry over? The soul has hair? Teeth? Fingernails? Nerve fibers? Internal Organs? Bones? Limbs? Your senses in tact? It seems so absurd that your soul would have these things, because to have them would mean that physics would be required to exist in heaven or hell. So this would mean you would have to eat, you cant have conservation of energy without ingesting some from of energy. It is why we have stomachs, to process the food into energy the body can use. Therefore you would need to eat in hell. If you don't need to eat in hell then physics can not exist in hell. If physics doesn't exist why would you need bones, or limbs? Why make this world full of physics but have this other dimension that does not? It is clear this is a psychological issue where people fear death, don't understand death, can't cope with death, they invent ideas to ease their mind about death.
 
xris
 
Reply Fri 22 May, 2009 12:29 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
There is so many ridiculous things about this belief.

First off, Hitler was religious.

Secondly, you don't know if Hitler asked god for forgiveness before he died.
People just all assume he didn't or that his actions resulted in him going to hell, but you have absolutely no idea.

Third, you don't even know if the Holocaust was gods will and it was through Hitler that it was conducted. Therefore Hitler might be a proponent of god, so why would god torture him?

Fourth, if god punishes the good people because they have not chosen to accept Jesus or god, then god is not even worthy of being called a god.

Fith, if you can commit sin and be forgiven for sin then why doesn't everyone sin to the maximum and then just ask for forgiveness later? It seems a little silly to try to avoid sin if you are going to be forgiven for it anyways.

Sixth, if heaven or hell is eternal then their reward or punishment do not equal the crime so it would be unjust to torture a being for eternity for something they did that was comparatively short in scale. This would make god once again, unjust.

Seventh, why would your soul have any information about you in the next world? Your brain and memories carry over? The soul has hair? Teeth? Fingernails? Nerve fibers? Internal Organs? Bones? Limbs? Your senses in tact? It seems so absurd that your soul would have these things, because to have them would mean that physics would be required to exist in heaven or hell. So this would mean you would have to eat, you cant have conservation of energy without ingesting some from of energy. It is why we have stomachs, to process the food into energy the body can use. Therefore you would need to eat in hell. If you don't need to eat in hell then physics can not exist in hell. If physics doesn't exist why would you need bones, or limbs? Why make this world full of physics but have this other dimension that does not? It is clear this is a psychological issue where people fear death, don't understand death, can't cope with death, they invent ideas to ease their mind about death.
All these things are opposing your thoughts on an after life not others.You are supposing the christian idea of forgiveness and retribution.You cant imagine a reality without a physical ability, why?Im not saying your wrong but you might just be.Its not the act of saying sorry its the persecution you inflict on yourself that decides your sorrow.Is it always fear that drives belief?xris.....Smile
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Fri 22 May, 2009 12:49 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
There is so many ridiculous things about this belief.

First off, Hitler was religious.

Secondly, you don't know if Hitler asked god for forgiveness before he died.
People just all assume he didn't or that his actions resulted in him going to hell, but you have absolutely no idea.

Third, you don't even know if the Holocaust was gods will and it was through Hitler that it was conducted. Therefore Hitler might be a proponent of god, so why would god torture him?

Fourth, if god punishes the good people because they have not chosen to accept Jesus or god, then god is not even worthy of being called a god.

Fith, if you can commit sin and be forgiven for sin then why doesn't everyone sin to the maximum and then just ask for forgiveness later? It seems a little silly to try to avoid sin if you are going to be forgiven for it anyways.

Sixth, if heaven or hell is eternal then their reward or punishment do not equal the crime so it would be unjust to torture a being for eternity for something they did that was comparatively short in scale. This would make god once again, unjust.

Seventh, why would your soul have any information about you in the next world? Your brain and memories carry over? The soul has hair? Teeth? Fingernails? Nerve fibers? Internal Organs? Bones? Limbs? Your senses in tact? It seems so absurd that your soul would have these things, because to have them would mean that physics would be required to exist in heaven or hell. So this would mean you would have to eat, you cant have conservation of energy without ingesting some from of energy. It is why we have stomachs, to process the food into energy the body can use. Therefore you would need to eat in hell. If you don't need to eat in hell then physics can not exist in hell. If physics doesn't exist why would you need bones, or limbs? Why make this world full of physics but have this other dimension that does not? It is clear this is a psychological issue where people fear death, don't understand death, can't cope with death, they invent ideas to ease their mind about death.


Are you sure , really really sure ??
 
Eudaimon
 
Reply Thu 28 May, 2009 09:52 am
@Alan McDougall,
Hi, Alan. I presume this thread developed from some of our previous discussion...
In history we had examples of thousands of martyrs who died in tortures, yet being happy. The point is that if god really wanted to punish Hitler, would "an eye for an eye" be a real punishment, if I have power to experience that without grief?
The other point is that thou ascribest to much hatred to Hitler. To the extent that he becomes not a human but an embodiment of devil (or god, as Krumple said, who knows?). Hatred is limited much as everything in this life... Much as thine own sins...
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Thu 28 May, 2009 10:51 am
@Eudaimon,
Eudaimon;65386 wrote:

The other point is that thou ascribest to much hatred to Hitler. To the extent that he becomes not a human but an embodiment of devil


Can you think of a better human embodiment of evil than Adolf Hitler?

I do not know how Alan might have over exaggerated Hitler's hatred; the man is responsible for one of the most atrocious genocides in history. That takes a great deal of hate to orchestrate.
 
Eudaimon
 
Reply Fri 29 May, 2009 02:27 am
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas;65398 wrote:
Can you think of a better human embodiment of evil than Adolf Hitler?

I do not know how Alan might have over exaggerated Hitler's hatred; the man is responsible for one of the most atrocious genocides in history. That takes a great deal of hate to orchestrate.

Whether we can think or not of some one more cruel than Hitler (actually, I suppose there were such people in history, they only didn't have such instruments as he did; read old testament, Greek poems e.g.). The point is that he was a human just as every one and his behaviour was in those limits nature put for humans (everything including hatred, joy is finite). Everything passes away, as famously stated Solomon.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Fri 29 May, 2009 03:50 am
@Alan McDougall,
Quote:
Its not the act of saying sorry its the persecution you inflict on yourself that decides your sorrow.
Then why do Christians make statements like Jesus or god will be the judge? So wouldn't your above statement be a contradiction?

This also doesn't work for someone who really can not see that their actions were bad in any way. Some serial killers do not see or think themselves bad for killing. People like to believe that they know killing was bad yet they did it despite it. This is not the case in all cases.

With that sort of mentality I can also use myself in that sort of thing. I personally do not think doing drugs or paying for sex is bad in any way shape or form. So if god were to ask me to judge myself on doing drugs, I wouldn't start crying or judge myself on that. I don't think they are bad in a moralistic sense. However; can they mess you up physically, emotionally and psychologically. Yes, they do have that ability, but so does everything else including religion.

If you take things in moderation and not to an excess then it's really not that harmful. Even water if drank too much within a short period of time, can be deadly.

So I really don't buy the self judgment theory. It sounds reasonable but I don't think it works like that. Let me put it another way, some people might judge themselves too harshly on stuff that isn't in anyway bad. So the whole system would be imbalanced. You would get people who weren't critical enough and some who were more critical then they needed to be.

Quote:
Are you sure , really really sure ??


No, I am not sure. really really sure. I just don't believe that a 2000 year old love letter from god has managed to handed from person to person down to me without a single person adding in their own lines here or there.

It's quite funny how Christians on one hand will say humans are all corrupt and evil yet when it comes to the bible they haven't corrupted it. So when I ask this, their response is, well god made sure people wouldn't corrupt his love letter. If that is true, how come I get Christians saying that there are parts of the bible that are not translated correctly and to get the correct interpretation you have to read the Hebrew. So god was to lazy to over see the translations? But he wasn't lazy to make sure it wouldn't be corrupted? It's just a round and round unending maze of apologizing and wobbly excuses.

Are you sure? really really sure?
 
xris
 
Reply Fri 29 May, 2009 05:25 am
@Krumple,
Krumple im no christian so i cant respond to certain questions.My wishful thinking would be that the conscience would be made aware of its errors not those seen as unsocial by others or unacceptable by society.Certain individuals have switched of their moral button for one reason or another ,ide like it switched on again.
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Fri 29 May, 2009 05:42 am
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas;65398 wrote:
Can you think of a better human embodiment of evil than Adolf Hitler?

The British people who orchestrated the successful genocide of the Tasmanian Aborigines?

The Japanese officers who oversaw the rape of Nanking?

Stephen Barker?
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2009 03:16 am
@Dave Allen,
Dave Allen;65529 wrote:
The British people who orchestrated the successful genocide of the Tasmanian Aborigines?

The Japanese officers who oversaw the rape of Nanking?

Stephen Barker?


Dave you simply cant justify one evil by quoting another, the Aboriginal almost genocide was bad, but not systematic slaughter of countless millions like the NAZI regime

If we use cold equations to translate evil, then Hitler comes out at the top of the depraved bunch.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2009 03:34 am
@Alan McDougall,
Quote:
If we use cold equations to translate evil, then Hitler comes out at the top of the depraved bunch.


No actually god would hold the top spot for evil, because god has killed more than Hitler.
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2009 03:58 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;65932 wrote:
Dave you simply cant justify one evil by quoting another...

No, but you can point out that no single person is a paragon of evil. I don't think anyone here is seeking to justify any particular evildoer - just pointing out that stating any one is worse than any other is a controversial exercise. If not an exercise in futility - are those who draw up plans for genocide as evil as those who rape toddlers? If so H G Wells is one of history's greatest villains.

I do happen to feel that, in terms of malice and totality, the genocide of the Tasmanian aborigine has to be the world's worst - a literal final solution applied to humans who were viewed as animals.

To compare the supposed chief administator of a partial genocide to the British in Tasmania (who killed less, but completely wiped out the culture they sought to destroy, who sent frightened survivors of small-scale slaughters into the forests of Tasmania with the heads of their relatives about their necks as a warning to others, who sold tobacco pouches made from cured aborigonal scrotums) seems unfair to me. That Germany has gone down as one of history's most condemnable cultures, whilst Britain seem to have acheived a status of plucky heroes - just because of the events of the first half of the 20th century - strikes me as ironic. History is written by the victors I suppose, and unlike the jews there are no Tasmanians left to speak up for those who suffered. Before he left office Tony Blair publicly apologised for Britain's role in the slave trade - which was nice of him. He wasn't under any pressure to apologise for Britian being the only culture to ever carry out a successful genocide - because no one is left to represent Tasmanian culture.

If its numbers and cold industrial systems of death and oppression that are evil, then Stalin strikes me as more of a paragon of evil for the genocide of the kulaks, the gulags, and the engineered famines that wiped out the Russian peasant class.

If we're talking about personally icky things people have done, Hitler never actually got his hands dirty, he was an administrator and organiser - but his personal deeds were not those of a violent psychopath or child murderer.

Yet Hitler remains top cultural bogieman - which I feel is overly simplistic and excuses other evildoers of their shame.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2009 04:10 am
@Dave Allen,
Krumple;65938 wrote:
No actually god would hold the top spot for evil, because god has killed more than Hitler.


And He hasn't been tried, not even once. I don't think He has even been arrested. It must be tough to convict without evidence, finger prints and such.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2009 05:05 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;65938 wrote:
No actually god would hold the top spot for evil, because god has killed more than Hitler.


Well God is accountable to no one is he? , beware he might send you to a place that you will not like at all

I think it is safety first , god just might, might, really exist, so it is best not to insult him

"God if there is a God save my soul if I have a soul"
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2009 06:10 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan I'm content to condemn the myth that created christian brutality.The conquistadors used the scriptures to murder millions of South Americans.Muslims used their god to kill 80 million pagans.If there was a god don't you think he aught to inform his followers about the excesses they commited in his name?Just one little nudge,one wink, one shake of his head.I can assure you if god exists I will not bow down and worship him, not till his made his excuses and explained his inept reasoning's.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2009 06:22 am
@xris,
xris;65960 wrote:
Alan I'm content to condemn the myth that created christian brutality.


But the myth did not create Christian brutality. The men reading the myth and interpreting the myth to suit their own selfish ends created the brutality. Ignorance created the brutality.

The hero of the myth is murdered, he does not have victims. To say that a myth about a man who endures the brutality of others with compassion somehow created cold-hearted slayings does not make much sense.
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2009 06:33 am
@Alan McDougall,
But the hero of the myth (or his authors) also invented Hell as it is popularly understood, and said that you would go there if you didn't accept his authority.

It's hardly a surprise then, based on this doctrine, that those who came to follow the hero in word and deed (if not intention) have been willing to use the fact that spreading the word might help people avoid everlasting torment as an excuse to go as armed missionaries.
 
 

 
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