My perception of time/space/movent

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Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 12:25 pm
Hi at first I was going to post this thread in the science, but some of it might not fit nicely there

The mystery and illusion that is Time

Nothing is as it seems to be and all things are subjective realties to
the observer. Everything is relative to each person from the viewpoint
of the only ultimate reality the First Cause, Ultimate, Divine Mind.

There is no absolute time, time moves differently from one object to
the next and in one location to the next.

For example, time moves slower on massive objects like the Sun or Jupiter and faster on less massive objects like earth

Time moves slower in space.

This is no longer a theory, but proven fact. Extremely accurate
precision atomic clocks on fast moving spacecraft have detected this
strange phenomenon and proven Einstein's theory of relativity to be
true.


Stop all the clocks in the universe and "movement will continue
unaffected".


Stop all movement and the illusion we call time will stop
and nothing ever happen again, unless Source again allows movement to begin again

Time within the physical universe time is elastic in one direction only namely; into a the future only

The twin paradox describes what happens. One twin
boards a spacecraft traveling close to the speed of light, on a voyage
for Alpha Centauri, some four light years from earth. Ten years he
returns having aged only one year compared to his now twenty-year-
older twin brother.

An enigmatic paradox but absolutely true and real.

One exciting, but far distant use of this effect is the real
possibility of reaching any moment in the future. Given enough speed and energy one could reach the Olympic Games of the year 2108 in a matter of only a few subjective days, but sadly never return to the time frame they left behind,

Backward times travel to the past, is a fantasy
and if this were possible, a person could do the impossible and go
back and murder their younger self.

There is no universal now! Events are simply hanging there in "spacetime"

Time cannot exist without space and space cannot exist without time and movement can only happen if both exists

We only perceive the concept of "time" the movement of an object through space.

Accordingly space and time are different realities of the same thing and one cannot without the other and only exist in conjunction with movement

For example, stop all movement in the universe
and you have stopped time, have you not?

Therefore, these three things cannot exist separately and are just one interconnected "Spacetimemovement" reality

Time" is an illusion, a purely human construct of mankind, designed for convenience in order to measure a perceived "past", "present" and "future". The illusion of "time" on Earth is maintained by means of a scientific measurement of the relative positions of the Earth and the Sun in the physical three dimensional Universe in order to observe the seasons and the time the Earth takes for a complete rotation relative to the Sun in the measurement of ongoing "time", in turn measured by various physical instruments such as clocks, calendars and charts.

Beyond the perceptions of most of those in the physical world, "time" simply does not exist. There is only Now, the Eternal Now where everything that has happened, is happening and ever will happen relative to the Earth concept of time already exists, always has existed and always will exist. Beyond Earth therefore the concepts of "past, present and future" simply do not and cannot exist.

The entire Universe from The Source, The First Cause, God is Energy vibrating at a frequency relative to The Source, The Source being the very center of the Universe of Energy and the physical world being the outermost shell, the physical three dimensional Universe as observed by means of the physical senses and by science, existing at the lowest rate of vibration and the highest density.

It should also be mentioned that the physical Universe of matter might only represent a tiny fraction of all the energy in existence in its entirety.


Everything that happens, ever happened and ever will happen in the entire Universe therefore, including the physical world, first originated as a thought originating from the Mind of a Being, and which thought in turn has its corresponding effect on the Energy and Matter of the Universe.

The Ultimate act of Creation by The First Cause, The Source, God of the entire Universe in all of its glorious spheres, planes and dimensions originated in the very beginning as a thought in the Mind of God.

It can be truly said therefore that we all exist as "expressions", within the Mind of God.

Since the beginning of the human concept of "time" mankind has sought to live life based around that concept, thereby always thinking in terms of past present and future rather than Now.

The Universe and the Energy we influence in the creation of our own individual realities have no concept of time, only Now, and as a result there is a no past or future irrespective of how much mankind forces his own existence around those erroneous notions.

This tendency to force everything to happen in compliance with a notional concept of "time" has a very profound effect on people.

When a person thinks in the future tense, for example " I will", "I want", "I could" then the Energy being influenced by those thoughts that can manifest into individual reality will be influenced only in the Now, with the perceived future arriving or not arriving.

So if someone thinks, says or behaves in a manner that implies "I want", then that person is placing themselves into a perpetual state of "wanting" but never of actually receiving.

The vast majority of the human race today exists to some extent in a state of such wanting, while never being in a state of Mind, Energy to receive that which exactly what they "want".


Author Alan McDougall 10/3/2003




 
Zetherin
 
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 12:37 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall wrote:
Time" is an illusion, a purely human construct of mankind, designed for convenience in order to measure a perceived "past", "present" and "future"


How does this take into account the "time" passed prior to humanity? Are you saying we just *think* "time" passed prior to our being, and that no "time" actually did pass?

I'm not following your train of thought. I'm thinking it has to do with the format.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 12:40 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Quote:
For example, time moves slower on massive objects like the Sun or Jupiter and faster on less massive objects like earth

Time moves slower in space.


[/COLOR][/B]Where do you get this nonsense?Einstein's [/SIZE]Relativity states that the closer you get to the speed of light time slows down. If you really think time moves slower in space then you are neglecting Relativity.

Time is not effected by gravity.

There are theories that if you were to completely stop in space and not subject to the motion of any cosmological body then time would speed up, not slow down.

Alan, where ever you got your research from, it fails.


 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 02:16 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
[/color][/b]Where do you get this nonsense?Einstein's [/size]Relativity states that the closer you get to the speed of light time slows down. If you really think time moves slower in space then you are neglecting Relativity.

Time is not effected by gravity.

There are theories that if you were to completely stop in space and not subject to the motion of any cosmological body then time would speed up, not slow down.

Alan, where ever you got your research from, it fails.



Why Does Gravity Slow Time? - Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics

It is very hard to keep my composure in the light of your unpleasant remark that I am stating nonsense. One of my strengths in that of astrophysics and general physics and I take the highest umbrage for a comment from a person like you, who by your incorrect remarks makes it obvious that your understanding of even the very basics of physics is limited in the extreme

Gravity effects the flow of time , indeed you age infinitesimally differently if you worked on the top of of very high mountain when compared to anyone living at sea level "THIS IS A FACT OF PHYSICS"



Because you obviously think I am inventing the effect of gravity or mass to the flow of time I give you just one link of countless others to check your facts against


By your comment make it obvious to me that you do not only think I am speaking a load of nonsense but no less than Albert Einstein himself





Institute of Physics
Why Does Gravity Slow Time?

[CENTER][CENTER]Article Index[/CENTER][/CENTER]
Page 1
Page 2
Page 3


Why Does Gravity Slow Time?
Imagine a pair of twins, Alice and Bob, who will live to exactly the same age. Rather than giving this age in years, which might be confusing in what follows, let's say each will live for one billion heart beats, and their hearts beat at 60 beats per minute. Alice, a hurricane hunter by trade, has become bored with Earth's puny storms and has moved to Jupiter to chase its Great Red Spot, a centuries old cyclone of truly mammoth proportions.


Now gravity is stronger on Jupiter than on the Earth, one consequence being that Alice weighs more. But more interestingly, Albert Einstein's theory of general relativity - his theory of space, time and gravity - says that, due to the lower gravitational potential on Jupiter than on Earth, time as experienced by Alice is moving more slowly relative to time experienced by Bob back on the Earth. What does this mean? First, the word 'relative' is crucial here: it means that as far as Alice is concerned, nothing in her own experience indicates to her that time is moving more slowly.



The point is, more slowly relative to what? Alice herself feels nothing out of the ordinary, for instance her heart still beats at 60 beats per minute according to her wristwatch. It is only when Alice and Bob compare their experiences of the passage of time that they notice something very strange.


For example, when they speak with each other over the satellite link, Bob notices that Alice's voice is a bit deeper and she is speaking more slowly - exactly like a tape recording replayed at a slightly slower speed. But Alice does not feel that she is speaking slowly, or thinking slowly, or anything else for her is happening more slowly.



And from Alice's point of view, she notices that Bob's voice is higher pitched than she remembers, and he is talking (and thinking, and doing everything else) a bit faster - exactly like a tape recording played back at a faster speed. More to the point, when Bob puts the microphone next to his heart, Alice hears it beating at faster than 60 beats per minute according to her wristwatch (and her heart); conversely, Bob hears Alice's heart beating more slowly than his. Both agree that Alice could return to Earth before her billion heart beats run out and attend Bob's funeral.


How is this possible? Why does gravity affect the rate at which time moves? One of the simplest ways to understand this begins with Einstein's equation E = mc2, which says that mass is a (very concentrated) form of energy. As a consequence of this, Einstein reasoned that it would be possible to build a perpetual motion machine (and thus get something - energy - for nothing) unless gravity slows time. The machine in question is show in the figure. It consists of a vertical conveyor belt stretched between two pulleys which, to keep things simple, we imagine to be frictionless.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 04:03 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Quote:

Gravity effects the flow of time , indeed you age infinitesimally differently if you worked on the top of of very high mountain when compared to anyone living at sea level "THIS IS A FACT OF PHYSICS"


No, just because it's on a website doesn't mean it's factual.

Gravity doesn't effect time, it is speed that is causing the change in time. So many distort the equation.

The aspect of the Jupiter/Earth scenario is a farce. It has to do with speed, not gravity.
[/COLOR][/COLOR]
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Wed 20 May, 2009 06:52 am
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
No, just because it's on a website doesn't mean it's factual.

Gravity doesn't effect time, it is speed that is causing the change in time. So many distort the equation.

The aspect of the Jupiter/Earth scenario is a farce. It has to do with speed, not gravity.
[/color][/color]


If is is a farce then don't, prove it scientifically to me please

I can give your reams and reams of proof about my statement, give me a few "counterargument to prove me and ever other physicist on earth wrong", you will realty upset the scientific world by proving no less than Einstein was wrong.

I will give you Einsteins actual equations but then you will say I got it from a web site so I will go and read up my own physics books and write out in detail the empirically tested scientific truth that what I stated was proved fact

It was done by the use of unimaginable accurate atomic clocks,
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Fri 22 May, 2009 05:16 am
@Alan McDougall,
VI

Time Dilation/Gravity




Time - MSN Encarta

Time is not a physical constant. Motion and gravity effect time by dilating (slowing) it or by expanding its duration. In 1905 Albert Einstein described the effect of motion on time in his special theory of relativity. In 1916 he described the effect of gravity on time in his general theory of relativity.
Time dilation effects due to motion were experimentally observed in the early 1970s.



Researchers placed atomic clocks on commercial airliners and observed the expected changes in time as measured by those clocks relative to similar clocks on the ground. In particular, when the planes traveled east, in the direction of Earth's rotation, the clocks on the airliners were 59 nanoseconds (59 billionths of a second) slow relative to the atomic clocks on the ground. When the airplanes traveled west, the clocks were 273 nanoseconds fast.



This discrepancy is caused by the rotation of Earth, which causes an additional time dilation. If the effect of Earth's rotation is removed, the time dilation produced by the motion of the airliners confirms Einstein's theory of how time changes with motion, as the dilation is in agreement with predictions made by the theory.


Time dilation effects due to gravity have been experimentally verified in many ways. For example, time on the Sun's surface runs about two parts in a million slower than on Earth because of the Sun's much higher gravity. In 1968 American physicist Irwin Shapiro confirmed this effect when he showed that radar signals (see Radar Astronomy) and their reflection
 
validity
 
Reply Fri 22 May, 2009 06:00 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall wrote:
One of my strengths in that of astrophysics and general physics and I take the highest umbrage for a comment from a person like you, who by your incorrect remarks makes it obvious that your understanding of even the very basics of physics is limited in the extreme
God is not in the basics of physics either, where does that place your understanding?
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Fri 22 May, 2009 10:26 am
@validity,
validity wrote:
God is not in the basics of physics either, where does that place your understanding?


Without God we must accept that our universe emerged from "nowhere" and "nowhen" and "nothing" became "everything

Time must have a beginning and God is as good as option as any for me,
I perceive god as the one who set time to flow when our universe began.

God to me is the Ultimate Physicist , he is the one who laid down all the mathematical constant that drives and sustains our universe.

But I have no problem discussing time without bringing and higher power into the equation, I do however, have a right to my own opinion

That is why I posted this thread here instead of the Philosophy of Science subforum

But we have debated that on another thread, so let us try to keep this topic the relation of time, movement and relativity.

We are separated from alternate dimensions and realms or universes if you like, by the very slightest slip in the invisible vials that separate each realm from the another

There are folds in the fabric of space time, something like large wrinkles in a sheet of cloth, these are portals into other realities, some almost identical to ours others so weird and outlandish that our human senses could not comprehend where we were

You might enter one and find yourself just a few minutes ahead of their time, like a fleeting ghost to them.

In an altered state of consciousness I entered a world identical to ours, except to me time was reversing, and to them time flowed as normal.

I followed a person who had arrived at his work desk, he got up from his chair turned around and walked backward into the elevator without looking behind him, as if he and the elevator were synchronized in some way

To him a was a frighting phantom reversing in front of by walking backwards in relative to him , not looking back relative to him

I called this Experience "They All walked Backward" It was weird, in the land of the backwards walkers I was king, a phantom who followed a person by reversing in front of them , disappearing and reappearing , like a fleeting ghost

It you could look at his wrist watch in relation to mine, both watches were set at nine o'clock in the morning, as I followed him backward his wrist watch began to reverse, relative to mine continues to advance, becoming more and more out of sync until I had no option but to exit this strange land or take the risk of being trapped in this place forever
Time is infinitely more complex than the tick tick tick of our bedside clocks
 
Krumple
 
Reply Fri 22 May, 2009 11:18 am
@Alan McDougall,
Quote:
Without God we must accept that our universe emerged from "nowhere" and "nowhen" and "nothing" became "everything
See you make statements like this but can't even see that even with god, you would still have the same result.

God is there, snaps his fingers and walla! *POOF* stuff from "nothing" emergence from "nowhere" and "nowhen".

Do you even think through the things you write?

EDIT:

During the moon landings, did NASA need to slow down the astronauts voice transmissions? Why do I ask? Well according to you, since gravity effects time, the moon has less gravity therefore the time according to the astronauts would thus be faster than relative to mission control back on earth. Not only would their voice transmissions need to be altered but everything they did would have seems in faster forward. So all video feeds would have also required slowing them down. Both of these would have been required for mission control to understand the activities of the astronauts. Then there is the whole transmission. What the astronauts would have been doing and the time back at mission control would not match up. So they would be far ahead of mission control time line. If you are working on an experiment and needed to talk to mission control, they would think you were doing something else at that moment. This however didn't happen either.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Fri 22 May, 2009 12:46 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
See you make statements like this but can't even see that even with god, you would still have the same result.

God is there, snaps his fingers and walla! *POOF* stuff from "nothing" emergence from "nowhere" and "nowhen".

Do you even think through the things you write?

EDIT:

During the moon landings, did NASA need to slow down the astronauts voice transmissions? Why do I ask? Well according to you, since gravity effects time, the moon has less gravity therefore the time according to the astronauts would thus be faster than relative to mission control back on earth. Not only would their voice transmissions need to be altered but everything they did would have seems in faster forward. So all video feeds would have also required slowing them down. Both of these would have been required for mission control to understand the activities of the astronauts. Then there is the whole transmission. What the astronauts would have been doing and the time back at mission control would not match up. So they would be far ahead of mission control time line. If you are working on an experiment and needed to talk to mission control, they would think you were doing something else at that moment. This however didn't happen either.


That statement above just goes to enforce your lack of knowledge , in fields of astronomy, astrophysics, science, mathematics and cosmology
physics astrophysics ) The difference between time movement on the moon compared to the earth was almost infinitesimally small

In the order of a millionth of a pico second. A pico second is to a second, to a second what a second is to thirty six thiusands years
 
validity
 
Reply Fri 22 May, 2009 04:15 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan, you fail to see what you are saying. You are insisting to remainin scientific, while introducing God. This makes you appear offensively delusional.
You say to Krumple
Alan McDougall wrote:
who by your incorrect remarks makes it obvious that your understanding of even the very basics of physics is limited in the extreme
and yet you appear to have none
Alan McDougall wrote:
Without God we must accept that our universe emerged from "nowhere" and "nowhen" and "nothing" became "everything

Time must have a beginning and God is as good as option as any for me,
I perceive god as the one who set time to flow when our universe began.
God is not a part of physics.

You insist on proof,
Alan McDougall wrote:
If is is a farce then don't, prove it scientifically to me please

I can give your reams and reams of proof about my statement, give me a few "counterargument to prove me and ever other physicist on earth wrong", you will realty upset the scientific world by proving no less than Einstein was wrong.
then I insist you use the scientific method to prove the existence of God.

Alan McDougall wrote:
But we have debated that on another thread, so let us try to keep this topic the relation of time, movement and relativity.
And yet in your opening post you introduce God. I made a mistake, you do not appear offensively delusional, you appear offensively delusional with bouts of hypocrisy.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Fri 22 May, 2009 04:31 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Quote:
The difference between time movement on the moon compared to the earth was almost infinitesimally small

In the order of a millionth of a pico second. A pico second is to a second, to a second what a second is to thirty six thiusands years
I can't seem to find it now but you posted a link with your first post for this thread I think and in it I am assuming is where you got your theories from. Well in it, it makes the claim that people who live on mountain tops live longer than people who live at sea level simply because there is more mass below them which slows down time.

You really want to make the above argument when you say stuff like this:

Quote:
There is no absolute time, time moves differently from one object to
the next and in one location to the next.


Where is this location?

In another post you make the claim about airliners and time dilation. It has nothing to do with the motion of the planet. It has everything to do with the velocity of the airplane. Why?

Because the velocity of the clock on the ground is realitive to the earth's velocity through space time. However; the airplane's velocity is the earth's velocity plus the airplane's velocity which is faster.

The closer you get to the speed of light, time slows down.

So the time on the airliner would be slightly behind the clock on the ground.

It has nothing to do with earth's rotation or the direction the plane travels.


EDIT:

The same goes for orbiting satellites and the space shuttle missions. Their velocities are higher compared to the ground so the clock on the ground will be different than the clock on them.

Once again, velocity, not gravity...

Can I also add that many physicists are tossing out the concept of gravity because they are beginning to think that mass bending space time actually isn't a force but a result to the bending of space time. It only works for argument but the math often gets canceled. It also helps explain why it is such a weak "force" compared to all the others.

On a side note mass would effect time but it is not due to gravity. Why? Because the mass in a sense is stretching the space which stretches the distance/length between two points or in other words time.
 
 

 
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