God the observer of all time, How does he do it?

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Reply Tue 31 Mar, 2009 07:02 am
Hi people

God as the observer This primordial Mind had to do something; it had to Think and to find words from which to begin creation.

Endure forever, infinite, eternal are concepts that make no sense when they are linked to linear time we inhabit as three dimensional mortal beings, in an entropic driven universe.

I perceive God as that which exists in a place outside of linear time and space, that Jesus said was heaven "Our Father who is in heaven" God is also unlike us in that he inhabits infinite dimensions and of course can interact anything, anytime he chooses to do it..

I know you might say God is everywhere, but cant he withdraw himself at times from his own creation?

Thus heaven is somewhere else, not the universe The universe is more like a house he has constructed.

But how can God know everything and observe everything simultaneously?

Maybe God observes everything from a platform of infinite dimension, in what I call the "Every Changing" NOW.

Another possibility is God observes everything like an unravelled movie reel frame by frame.

If this is true then he could see the whole picture of his creation, indeed from beginning to end from , Alpha until the end of time Omega. Thus he could interact, intervene, splice and edit what he wants to do it.

This might sound a little silly, but after all creation is Gods movie is it not.

The error with this idea is that it does not really allow for free will. The Calvinist will like this idea I think. Of e.

He must observe everything that has happened, that is happening will happen in the future. I am the Alpha the Omega, the First and the Last, He that was and is and is to come. This gives credence to a previous suggestion of mine, that God endures as the One who IS

"IS" That.

Using another analogy of how I think God might observe the whole picture of our world and all its activities, all at the same time.

Think of a disturbance in a village involving the actions of a whole crowd of people of running rampant around in the streets all doing different things A helicopter (the eye of God) flies over the village and the observers in it can see the whole event in one time frame, from that observer platform God is both the pilot and the helicopter

Am I being a little silly trying to understand how an infinite being might work through time.
 
click here
 
Reply Tue 31 Mar, 2009 12:41 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall wrote:
Hi people

God as the observer
This primordial Mind had to do something; it had to Think and to find words from which to begin creation.

Endure forever, infinite, eternal are concepts that make no sense when they are linked to linear time we inhabit as three dimensional mortal beings, in an entropic driven universe.

I perceive God as that which exists in a place outside of linear time and space, that Jesus said was heaven
"Our Father who is in heaven" God is also unlike us in that he inhabits infinite dimensions and of course can interact anything, anytime he chooses to do it..

I know you might say God is everywhere, but cant he withdraw himself at times from his own creation?



Thus heaven is somewhere else, not the universe The universe is more like a house he has constructed.


But how can God know everything and observe everything simultaneously?


Maybe God observes everything from a platform of infinite dimension, in what I call the "Every Changing" NOW.


Another possibility is God observes everything like an unravelled movie reel frame by frame.

If this is true then he could see the whole picture of his creation, indeed from beginning to end from , Alpha until the end of time Omega. Thus he could interact, intervene, splice and edit what he wants to do it.

This might sound a little silly, but after all creation is Gods movie is it not.

The error with this idea is that it does not really allow for free will. The Calvinist will like this idea I think. Of e.



He must observe everything that has happened, that is happening will happen in the future. I am the Alpha the Omega, the First and the Last, He that was and is and is to come. This gives credence to a previous suggestion of mine, that God endures as the One who IS

"IS" That.



Using another analogy of how I think God might observe the whole picture of our world and all its activities, all at the same time.

Think of a disturbance in a village involving the actions of a whole crowd of people of running rampant around in the streets all doing different things A helicopter (the eye of God) flies over the village and the observers in it can see the whole event in one time frame, from that observer platform God is both the pilot and the helicopter

Am I being a little silly trying to understand how an infinite being might work through time



Note about your posts: Could you just use regular texts in your posts? Personally I find it easier to read. (I use an 8.9 inch Eee Pc) but nonetheless bold, italics and blue? Is that really necessary?

Now on to content:

On your example of God viewing time as a film strip. This is a little bit strong of an analogy but I think in its essence it does not negate free will. All it merely is is the foreknowledge of that which you are going to do.

Reference: Eph 1:11 "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will"

There are direct examples of, for at least my example, Jesus knowing what someone was going to do.

Luke 22:34- "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me."

That is what ended up happening. Well maybe you won't call that he had free will. I would disagree. I completely believe he chose what he did based on his own decisions, there was no invisible marionette type force driving him.

Of course it can all depend on how you define free will.
 
hammersklavier
 
Reply Tue 31 Mar, 2009 12:50 pm
@click here,
You know what my answer is by now, don't you?

God can observe all the Universe because God is the Universe, just as we can observe internally the feel of our heart, the rumbling of our stomach, the pressing sensations before we have to go to the bathroom, because we are our bodies, so can God perceive (a much better word for it) what's going on in His being.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Wed 1 Apr, 2009 06:45 am
@hammersklavier,
click here
Quote:

Note about your posts: Could you just use regular texts in your posts? Personally I find it easier to read. (I use an 8.9 inch Eee Pc) but nonetheless bold, italics and blue? Is that really necessary?

Now on to content:

On your example of God viewing time as a film strip. This is a little bit strong of an analogy but I think in its essence it does not negate free will. All it merely is is the foreknowledge of that which you are going to do.

Reference: Eph 1:11 "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will"

There are direct examples of, for at least my example, Jesus knowing what someone was going to do.

Luke 22:34- "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me."

That is what ended up happening. Well maybe you won't call that he had free will. I would disagree. I completely believe he chose what he did based on his own decisions, there was no invisible marionette type force driving him.

Of course it can all depend on how you define free will.


"Sorry for using fonts from my word document, I have changed it as you can see"

The analogy of a film , strip I acknowledge as being a rather crude way for a finite mortal like myself, trying to fathom how a Being like God works through time, and who is not bound into time like we are

hammersklavier


Quote:
You know what my answer is by now, don't you?

God can observe all the Universe because God is the Universe, just as we can observe internally the feel of our heart, the rumbling of our stomach, the pressing sensations before we have to go to the bathroom, because we are our bodies, so can God perceive (a much better word for it) what's going on in His being.


God is much more than the universe, in my opinion,why couldn't the universe just be one of his great houses he has conceived and constructed, but only visits when he wants to visits.

My analogy still suggests a way he might obseve everything all the time and according what he sees, interviene

A little siily, but whay not give it a bash at trying to fathom , god, time space etc
 
drifter
 
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 12:03 pm
@Alan McDougall,
It seems to me that the idea that God is outside of time is one that developed over the years and I don't think is particularly backed up. How bored would a God be that is always looking at every moment in time at every event, that can always see every little detail. God's 'life' would essentially be one big blur.
I subscribe more to the thought that God is all powerful, all knowing and ever present, to the extent that he knows each individual so well he knows what we are going to do as time goes on, and knows the end picture of how he will redeem humanity but will not ever violate the gift of free will that was bestowed on us, which would definitely be violated if everything was planned out and inavoidable... as the case would be if God knows exactly how every second of infinity will go...

just a thought.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 12:17 pm
@drifter,
drifter wrote:
It seems to me that the idea that God is outside of time is one that developed over the years and I don't think is particularly backed up. How bored would a God be that is always looking at every moment in time at every event, that can always see every little detail. God's 'life' would essentially be one big blur.
I subscribe more to the thought that God is all powerful, all knowing and ever present, to the extent that he knows each individual so well he knows what we are going to do as time goes on, and knows the end picture of how he will redeem humanity but will not ever violate the gift of free will that was bestowed on us, which would definitely be violated if everything was planned out and inavoidable... as the case would be if God knows exactly how every second of infinity will go...

just a thought.



A good valid thought at that, Does god always create, in a ceaseless cycle, of destruction and creation

Maybe God dwells in infinity and outside eternity but decides to forget to observe all his handiwork all the time.

Maybe like a finished sand castle, he breaks it up all existence, and begins again This is biblical I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning (s) and ending (s) It is also scientific, the universe started in the big bang and will end in one way or the other
 
drifter
 
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 12:38 pm
@Alan McDougall,
That is perfectly logical, I just don't think there is evidence of that being the case, God's perceived foreknowledge of events can all be explained by Him being all knowing and understanding His creation. Why do we need to believe that He is outside time? I am inclined to the opinion that this notion was conceived out of our desire for control and security. It takes more faith if we believe God is experiencing everything at the same time as us for the first time.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 08:34 pm
@drifter,
drifter wrote:
That is perfectly logical, I just don't think there is evidence of that being the case, God's perceived foreknowledge of events can all be explained by Him being all knowing and understanding His creation. Why do we need to believe that He is outside time? I am inclined to the opinion that this notion was conceived out of our desire for control and security. It takes more faith if we believe God is experiencing everything at the same time as us for the first time.


I do not know if you give Biblical statement credit, but God said to Jeremiah for instance, I knew you before you were born , before the foundations of the world

Are we not just thoughts in the mind of God made concrete.

If we go to science for the answer, before the creation event, the Big Bang,everything emerged and became the universe as we know it, that includes, time, space, matter, energy and the fundamental constant that sustain the universe.

The universe did not emerge into an infinite void, it brought the void with it, and this void we call space

Weird but true

The terminology big bang is also not correct, there was no primordial explosion , just the universe emerging from nowhere into somewhere, if we discount God that it
 
drifter
 
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 07:30 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall wrote:
I do not know if you give Biblical statement credit, but God said to Jeremiah for instance, I knew you before you were born , before the foundations of the world

Are we not just thoughts in the mind of God made concrete.



Jeremiah 1: 4-5

Before I made you in your mother's womb, I chose you. Before you were born, I set you apart for a special work. I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.

I don't see these verses as proof God is outside time, just that He had a purpose for Jeremiah ( and everyone else). That purpose could have been rejected or accepted, God's will could be done or it could be ignored. In fact there are several examples of where God's plan is not done, or has been postponed in the Bible (Jonah, Elijah, Samson, King David...) Do you think it was part of God's plan for the Israelites to wander around the desert for so many years before they reached he promised land? The God that is presented to me in the Bible is one that wants the best for His people, and He has a perfect plan for everyone but we often choose to go against it. The God that is presented to me if I believe in pre-destination and all that is a much more controlling, cruel one; and one that I believe is much more contradictory to everything the Bible teaches us.
 
Justin
 
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 08:33 am
@drifter,
I agree on the text. Of all the posts on this forum Alan, I usually skip over reading any of yours because the text is so awful to read. From now on, please remove all formatting from your text. Do this by selecting all the text in the editor box and click the http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/images/PHBlue/editor/removeformat.gif button in the top left to remove the formatting. Thank you!

Alan McDougall wrote:
I perceive God as that which exists in a place outside of linear time and space, that Jesus said was heaven "Our Father who is in heaven" God is also unlike us in that he inhabits infinite dimensions and of course can interact anything, anytime he chooses to do it..

And this perception is based on what? God might be a girl.

drifter wrote:
Jeremiah 1: 4-5

Before I made you in your mother's womb, I chose you. Before you were born, I set you apart for a special work. I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.

Sounds similar to what God told George W. Bush. Does Jeremiah and George have anything in common?

drifter wrote:
I don't see these verses as proof God is outside time, just that He had a purpose for Jeremiah ( and everyone else). That purpose could have been rejected or accepted, God's will could be done or it could be ignored. In fact there are several examples of where God's plan is not done, or has been postponed in the Bible (Jonah, Elijah, Samson, King David...)

True. But what is God's plan anyway?

Alan, what I think is silly is that people assume that God is what is written in Bible. So we have a definition of God described by Man. So it's the man who created the god by definition of such.

Thousands of years from now, there may be a new bible written and George Bush may be wrote about as a prophet who freed Iraq. I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing anything that ties together God (love) and destruction or war. It just seems odd and 100% human perception.

Well overall, I don't think that God is what people have defined and perceived him or her to be. Remember, it was man who was on earth and it was man who looked to the heavens and started worshiping the sun. Then it evolved from sun worship and idolizing to the creation of a being that we cannot see. What will it be next? I've never looked into it but I bet there are old stories about a Sun God as well.

I don't believe that God is outside of time as it's clearly a definition of humankind... just as God himself is a creation of humankind.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 09:40 am
@drifter,
drifter wrote:
Jeremiah 1: 4-5

Before I made you in your mother's womb, I chose you. Before you were born, I set you apart for a special work. I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.

I don't see these verses as proof God is outside time, just that He had a purpose for Jeremiah ( and everyone else). That purpose could have been rejected or accepted, God's will could be done or it could be ignored. In fact there are several examples of where God's plan is not done, or has been postponed in the Bible (Jonah, Elijah, Samson, King David...) Do you think it was part of God's plan for the Israelites to wander around the desert for so many years before they reached he promised land? The God that is presented to me in the Bible is one that wants the best for His people, and He has a perfect plan for everyone but we often choose to go against it. The God that is presented to me if I believe in pre-destination and all that is a much more controlling, cruel one; and one that I believe is much more contradictory to everything the Bible teaches us.


My quote from the Bible was a little off as it was taken from memory. And God seems to change his mind from time to time, when he decided to bring the flood onto the earth, the Bible says It pained God that he had made man.

There are two possibilities here., one he created man, look away for a while and when he looked again at the progress of the world system he was not happy and decides to scrap the lot, with the exception of Noah and his family

Or maybe he is stuck in linear time like we are and simply did not know what was going to happen

Justin
Quote:
I agree on the text. Of all the posts on this forum Alan, I usually skip over reading any of yours because the text is so awful to read. From now on, please remove all formatting from your text. Do this by selecting all the text in the editor box and click the http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/images/PHBlue/editor/removeformat.gif button in the top left to remove the formatting. Thank you!


Justin I have tried my best to stop my wicked ways, and I have stopped using fonts from my words documents

I don't think you should just skip over my posts for this small transgression

Justin I know the Bible was written by countless ancient scribes and due to this it is full of silly contradictions, but I was communicating with a Roman and had to speak as a Roman , if you get my drift.

God to me is just the intelligence that pervades all existence and I did not reach that conclusion by reading scripture.

Cant we be happy friends dear Justin, I am realy trying to correct my wayward ways?
 
Justin
 
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 10:38 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall wrote:
Justin I have tried my best to stop my wicked ways, and I have stopped using fonts from my words documents

It's not that it's wicked at all it's just the formatting of your text. When you paste your text into the editor, just remove the formatting with the button that performs this action. Word adds formatting which can cause all kinds of other issues.

Alan McDougall wrote:
I don't think you should just skip over my posts for this small transgression

It's not about transgression it's about hurting my eyes and getting a headache at the site your text formatting. I haven't changed it because nobody has mentioned it that I've seen and everyone has their individual and unique way of writing. However, formatting of text is going to be added to the rules because obviously I'm not the only one.

Understand that when people are on the net, they land on a page or text or a forum and there's a 15 second window before they close it and move on. The text you've been using doesn't afford even the 15 seconds because it is hard to read and sometimes is large enough to be considered obnoxious or shouting.

Alan McDougall wrote:
Cant we be happy friends dear Justin, I am realy trying to correct my wayward ways?

It's not about being friendly and it's nothing personal. It's just a legitimate request because people do what to read what's written... but if they can't, then they wont read it. Cut and dry, very simple.

To be honest, because of the text formatting, I would bet that I haven't read 3 full posts of yours on this entire forum and it's just because of the text. If others feel the same way about the text and don't want to read it, eventually they just skip past what you've written and read stuff the eyes can handle without a bunch of mind chatter and pollution. For this same reason I don't use Myspace... It's like silent screaming on the formatting of their sites and text. This of course is my own opinion and I've been known or called the 'formatting Nazi' at times.

As far as happy friends, no problem there. I'm not being unhappy and hope it doesn't sound that way.

Alright, back to the thread. Thank you for understanding friend!
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 11:57 am
@Justin,
Justin

I accept all what you say, and would like to reiterate that you have built up a great forum here with great and interesting members.

It is our varying opinions and disagreement (maintaining politeness at all times) that make this the great forum it is.

I know I could/should have said this by PM but if you don't mind I would like the other forum members to see these comments by me

I have been on quite a few forums since getting broadband ADSL over here in South Africa, and yours is the best one I have registered on as an active member

I am now focussing most of my dialogue now on your forum, it is difficult to inhabit and give real justice if you try to spread yourself to thin

What I found when I first started posting on the internet in a forum, is that I had no idea how to function correctly so, I barged in with large numbers of threads that were just statements and not questions, thus no response or angry rejection.

All this wrong use of fonts by me, I thought wrongly that they were pretty and your correction was just part of my learning process of correctly negotiating my way around within a forum.

The very first time I used the internet on ADSL broadband was just a number of months ago and I regret my Bull in a China shop approach both in your forum and the other unfortunate forums that I entered with absolutely no idea of correct etiquette

I am sorry to digress in this way, but maybe there is someone reading this post that can learn from my mistakes

Peace

Alan
 
drifter
 
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 12:43 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall wrote:


Justin I know the Bible was written by countless ancient scribes and due to this it is full of silly contradictions, but I was communicating with a Roman and had to speak as a Roman , if you get my drift.

God to me is just the intelligence that pervades all existence and I did not reach that conclusion by reading scripture.


Just for the record, I'm not necessarily a 'Roman', I'm not even sure what I believe, it seemed that Alan was talking about the Christian God and using the Bible as evidence to make his point and I did the same.

Justin, I don't think there is any correlation between George Bush and Jeremiah in the slightest. My only point is that if I did believe in the God that the Bible portrays, I wouldn't believe that He is outside of time as I find no evidence of that in anything that I've studied.


P.S. I'm just getting used to posting on forums again, haven't quite got the hang of quoting properly yet, sorry!

---------- Post added at 07:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:43 PM ----------

Justin wrote:
True. But what is God's plan anyway?


I don't know! But if you study the lives of the people I mentioned; the story goes that God had plans for them and they went against them, but God redeems them in some way to bring them back to His original plan as closely as possible. Whether the Bible is God's word or not doesn't really make a difference, you can just look at it as a historical document. Yet even then when you look into it closely you can see the coherence in God's actions. There has to be faults in it because it was written by men, but this doesn't discount it as invalid. Yes you are right that someone could write a 'new bible' but the original wouldn't be discounted because it offers a complete package... redemption and meaning to life. I don't know if I believe it, it all sounds pretty far fetched to me. I guess I sort of see the bible as Gods character reference.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Sun 5 Apr, 2009 01:37 pm
@drifter,
Quote:
Previously posted by drifter
Just for the record, I'm not necessarily a 'Roman', I'm not even sure what I believe, it seemed that Alan was talking about the Christian God and using the Bible as evidence to make his point and I did the same.

Justin, I don't think there is any correlation between George Bush and Jeremiah in the slightest. My only point is that if I did believe in the God that the Bible portrays, I wouldn't believe that He is outside of time as I find no evidence of that in anything that I've studied.


You make a good point like I stated if we use the Bible as a reference, and I am not stopping anyone doing that, then it appears that God did not know his plan with humanity would fail and he would have to start over again by saving Noah and his family

I am an insatiable reader and therefore fairly informed and knowledgeable about the Bible and of course also an ex church goer now disappointed and disillusioned.But that is another story

We can also have a look at the Adam and Eve myth/story, if God could see the future and lived outside of time and space then why the heck did he give them a test he knew they were going to fail

No offence Roman to sometimes Roman , it is a good tool to use in philosophical debate :bigsmile:
 
Justin
 
Reply Mon 6 Apr, 2009 04:52 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan, great having you here and you made me laugh. 'Bull in China shop' approach is a good way to describe it. You are learning how to use the forum and thank you for that effort. I too was new at one time to forums and like you, was a bull in a china shop. Was banned from a few of them too. I couldn't imagine being new or just getting the Internet. You are doing a fine job at understanding this new and improved method of communicating.

Also, thank you for such kind compliments on the forum. I will try to do more to make resources available for new members so they can learn how to use the forum. Being a geek that lives on the Internet, it's often hard to understand that there are people around the world being freshly introduced to it.

drifter wrote:
Just for the record, I'm not necessarily a 'Roman', I'm not even sure what I believe, it seemed that Alan was talking about the Christian God and using the Bible as evidence to make his point and I did the same.

Justin, I don't think there is any correlation between George Bush and Jeremiah in the slightest. My only point is that if I did believe in the God that the Bible portrays, I wouldn't believe that He is outside of time as I find no evidence of that in anything that I've studied.

You are correct in a sense but in another, Jeremiah wrote that scripture and it's Jeremiah that appointed himself as a prophet to nations. Bush also appointed himself to a certain extent. What they have in common is they both claim that God told them so.

drifter wrote:
P.S. I'm just getting used to posting on forums again, haven't quite got the hang of quoting properly yet, sorry!

Thank you for the much needed reminder. I will do some tutorials this week to assist. I've attempted on a couple occasions but it was interrupted. This is a must do and I've been meaning to do it.

drifter wrote:
I don't know! But if you study the lives of the people I mentioned; the story goes that God had plans for them and they went against them, but God redeems them in some way to bring them back to His original plan as closely as possible. Whether the Bible is God's word or not doesn't really make a difference, you can just look at it as a historical document. Yet even then when you look into it closely you can see the coherence in God's actions. There has to be faults in it because it was written by men, but this doesn't discount it as invalid.

I don't think it's entirely invalid. It's a historical document or account of certain people. My contention is it's not complete and written by creative thinkers. Humans wrote the darn thing then humans pruned what was to be entered so it maintained consistency and form a complete package as you mentioned. Smashed it down, rewrote it, smoothed it over then translated it and mashed it up again and we have a new book, a new bible.

drifter wrote:
Yes you are right that someone could write a 'new bible' but the original wouldn't be discounted because it offers a complete package... redemption and meaning to life. I don't know if I believe it, it all sounds pretty far fetched to me. I guess I sort of see the bible as Gods character reference.

Yes a new bible. The earth may be cleared someday and reborn and any evidence of previous life forms destroyed in floods, fire and or erosion... or whatever this god may do. Then we'd have to form a new bible for the new people.

Agreed. there are lots of good stories in the bible on character and there are also a lot of good books in print that also support godlike or Christ like character. The thing is, an instruction book is not needed because of God's omnipotent presence. I'm not disputing that it's a good book. Great history.

I also don't believe it all. Why should I? It would be like going to church and believing everything my pastor tells me. He's still fallen man and his belief system was founded and molded and shaped throughout his lifetime base on circumstances, events and perceptions. That doesn't mean he's right but he thinks he is. He may even write a book that in years from now is tossed into a bible because it's politically correct.

So back to the thread, God the observer... I don't think so. I think God the omnipotent so if there's a God, he's experiencing what we are experiencing this very moment. But 'he' may be a 'she', so I'm using these terms sort of loosely describing it.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Mon 6 Apr, 2009 06:55 am
@Justin,
Quote:
Previously posted by Justin

Alan, great having you here and you made me laugh. 'Bull in China shop' approach is a good way to describe it. You are learning how to use the forum and thank you for that effort. I too was new at one time to forums and like you, was a bull in a china shop. Was banned from a few of them too. I couldn't imagine being new or just getting the Internet. You are doing a fine job at understanding this new and improved method of communicating.

Also, thank you for such kind compliments on the forum. I will try to do more to make resources available for new members so they can learn how to use the forum. Being a geek that lives on the Internet, it's often hard to understand that there are people around the world being freshly introduced to it.
And thank you Justin , I really appreciate your patience with me and your kind comments

Getting back to the topic, I feel that many of the biblical stories are mythical and have been passed verbally over huge time spans.

I have always had this innate intuitive feeling that something went drastically wrong far back in the deep in historical past of primordial man.

I have always disliked this kill or be kill or eat or eaten scenario that sustains biological life on earth

My late dad said after visiting an abattoir he could not eat meat for a year. I eat meat but always feel a little guitly when I do. I know if I visited an abattoir I will never eat meat again

It there is a God and IT created our world why did he allow death, death is unnatural to me as anyone would know at the funeral of a beloved or even at looking into the dying eyes of ones pet dog, it is awful

Geneticists tell us our genes are programmed with a death gene our cells can divide and live again without real problem, but when they reach a limit of division of maybe 60 times, they die an d we die with them, I don t like it

Switch off the death gene someone
 
Doorsopen
 
Reply Mon 6 Apr, 2009 01:53 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;55928 wrote:
Hi people ... trying to understand how an infinite being might work through time.


Imagine, if you will, a single point of light. This point may, in your imagination be as large or as small as you wish. This single point has only one dimension, neither time nor space have relevance to this point. Fix the thought of this point in your mind for a moment and you will have experienced a realm of existence which has neither time, space nor movement. Now will, in your thoughts, that this single point divides itself into its mirror image. Now you have two points that share the same origin and which reflect one another's nature. Hold in your mind these two points of light reflecting one another and you will have experienced the original concept of dualism. Which point of light is 'real'? Following this thought you may now realise that you can, in your consciousness, trace a line that connects these two points ...

On the one hand, from the perspective of the original point of light, time does not exist, so there is no distance and no time across which to travel. From the perspective of the secondary point of light, whose existence is dependent on the first, this dualism is irrational, it's qualities merely a reflection of the first. Subsequently neither time, nor space have relevance.

Now concentrate your thoughts on the line you have imagined separates these two points of light ... From this moment forward we have many observations to make ... What is the distance between the original point of light and its reflection? How long does it take to travel along this line that separates the point and its reflection?
I place your question here, on this line, this line which appears to separate the first point from the second. Time and space are a means to define this apparent separation of infinite and finite. But neither time nor space define, the original point which you at first observed.

So, How does an infinite being work through time? It doesn't. Only the finite, or that which defines time for itself, works through time. Which is real?

All three perspectives are real: we experience the "line" as our reality, our nature is the reflection, and the first is considered the point of origin of the latter two ...
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Mon 6 Apr, 2009 03:22 pm
@Doorsopen,
Doorsopen wrote:
Imagine, if you will, a single point of light. This point may, in your imagination be as large or as small as you wish. This single point has only one dimension, neither time nor space have relevance to this point. Fix the thought of this point in your mind for a moment and you will have experienced a realm of existence which has neither time, space nor movement. Now will, in your thoughts, that this single point divides itself into its mirror image. Now you have two points that share the same origin and which reflect one another's nature. Hold in your mind these two points of light reflecting one another and you will have experienced the original concept of dualism. Which point of light is 'real'? Following this thought you may now realise that you can, in your consciousness, trace a line that connects these two points ...

On the one hand, from the perspective of the original point of light, time does not exist, so there is no distance and no time across which to travel. From the perspective of the secondary point of light, whose existence is dependent on the first, this dualism is irrational, it's qualities merely a reflection of the first. Subsequently neither time, nor space have relevance.

Now concentrate your thoughts on the line you have imagined separates these two points of light ... From this moment forward we have many observations to make ... What is the distance between the original point of light and its reflection? How long does it take to travel along this line that separates the point and its reflection?
I place your question here, on this line, this line which appears to separate the first point from the second. Time and space are a means to define this apparent separation of infinite and finite. But neither time nor space define, the original point which you at first observed.

So, How does an infinite being work through time? It doesn't. Only the finite, or that which defines time for itself, works through time. Which is real?

All three perspectives are real: we experience the "line" as our reality, our nature is the reflection, and the first is considered the point of origin of the latter two ...


I agree an infinite being could not be trapped by linear time, if it did then like us who exist in linear time, it would be subject to cause and effect leading to relentless entropy of itself. Thus ceasing to be Infinite, creating an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms.

A being subject to the flow of energy which it must get from another source other than itself cannot be considered infinite can it?

Energy can only flow from one state to another state if it exists in "conjunction with linear time". Second law of thermodynamics of which I know a little of being an engineer


This being , therefore, must reside outside of linear time, in an "ever moment" from which it can jump to another ever moment" or between events in linear time, but not subject to the flow of linear time.

Jumping instantaneously for example, from its present "ever moment" into the primordial past or into the unimaginable distant future, hesitating there hovering and jumping back and forward between energy states or times if you like

All this comes from my colorful imagination and maybe it might even make some sense, because this happens in quantum mechanics

For instance, in the quantum world an electron does not exist if it is not observed,it but can exist if observed in one energy state only. but can jump between energy states instantaneously, time is not a factor.

Like the earth moving into the orbit of Mars, instantaneously. no space or time needed, one moment here the next moment there . Space and time are not a factor.

Maybe there is a great being to whom our whole universe is just an electron and the universe can only exist if it hovers and observes it, an outrageous thought?

Would the universe really exist if there were no one observing it? Does it need an observer to exist in one state or another like a tiny electron?,

What is true for the infinitesimal might be equally true for the huge and colossal.!l

Brave thoughts by little Alan sitting at his computer desk, looking at his monitor, musing about existence, if Alan vanishes, according to Alan so does the entire universe, scary but true, it is all about personal perception :shocked:
 
Doorsopen
 
Reply Tue 7 Apr, 2009 03:17 am
@Alan McDougall,
We are that part of the Universe that observes existence formed from infinity. We are at once within that infinity and observing its continual formation.
 
 

 
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