One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. If somebody believes he is following the commands of God, then in his perseption it is just. To defend his home and family is an universal right and shouldnt be denied him. But the issue is a complicated one, is the war on terror (an unending war, I believe) really a war against Islam, and does the invasions of their lands justify itself by the need to deffend 'our' own lands? Possibly, the war is actully within, in our own towns, as we have seen in England with home grown terrorists. It could be argued that these people are disillusioned men trying to find an identity, this is the sociallogical reasoning behind 'gangs' the world over, and the rise of right and left wing organisations in many countries. On the otherhand, many of these terrorists are very well educated and are wonderfully incorperated into their local comunities, family men, teachers and well liked friends.

Ive often wondered, in this case, what then is their motives for becoming 'terrorists'? Is it the teachings of fundermentalism in Islam, are they actually following their true religion as its supposed to be practiced? Or is it because they are 'fighting back' against the west and empiralism over their countries, people and proud culture? Martydom is usually the only way to make an effect on what they see as the 'rape and destruction' of their world.

Even in some western countries today the religious taditions provide a moral code of practice that holds the culture together as a unified people. The east has enjoyed this far longer than the west, and actully 'fear' globalisation as they feel it will remove their cultural unity, as it has done already in some eastern countries where the west has had a dramatic influence in the resent decades. I wonder if it even matters what religion it is they believe as the results may always be the same given the events that otherwise have happened.

Islam itself can be debated also, I suppose, but again I feel that the east would uphold and rally under any religious banner that it had weather it was Islam or even Christian, as any country would! The important thing is it is a common bond and cultural identity. Both religions (Islam and Christianity) have roughly the same moral code, in type.

Hmmm yes , would you subscribe to any "conspiracey theories" on this matter? such as "neo christianity" or dare I say it "zionist influence" on this so called war on terror?

What are your views on this? What is your opinion of the 'zionist movement'. Would I be correct in saying it is linked to 'temple mount'?

Are you avoiding an answer on this? I asked you if you entertain thoughts of a zionist or neo christian Influence on the wests foreign policy? I understand you want my answer but are you incapable of putting your own ideas on this? do you have to be spoon fed my own understanding to elaborate on it yourself at a later stage? Its such a complicated matter and I feel there are no right or wrong answers as such .We do not work for the secret service. Secret handshake to you All seeing eye.

Is there really a need for this here?

Without looking too far to find, the Internet is already awash with Zionist consipracy theories, plus a good deal said to substantiate, if the need be.

--- RH.

If you read from the top perplexity and at pilgrimshost first reply, you might see that we are looking at this debate from all points. while I agree there are way to many conspiracy theories floating about out there, surley you will understand that many muslims do infact belive in such conspiracy theories and much of the world . And as this talk is on the subject of Islam and the west I feel this subject should not be overlooked before we can move on to a more deeper debate. Maybe on the lack of evidence to support these conspiracy theories would be a good place for the next phase of this debate?

It never gets anywhere simply because, by definition, the proof of a conspiracy is never more than curcumstantial, and on this I speak from some experience.

I have been in Court charged with suspicion (in the 1970s a "sus charge"was enough to convict ), I have seen friends jailed on a drugs conspiracy charge, I have seen people since in prominent public positions who I knew then to have been involved but have since been absolutely quiet about it, and I have been involved with campaigners who worked hard for several years but in vain to attempt to prove conspiracy in local government.

Before then I want to talk about the proof of consipracy, somebody please tell me what there is to be done about it should it ever be proved.

--- RH.

We are going way off the subject. Once again if the muslims believe these conspiracy subjects to have truth, then they must be explored. These could be common "facts" in the islamic world even though to us its nonsense. Alot of the christian world thinks that islam itself is an evil religion and is from the devil, and they back that up with scripture! do they use sound debate?

I am trying to get a view of the mindset of these exremists from both sides. ( if one percieves them to be extreme)To understand what islam is? faith, truth, or mind control.

So conpiracy theories do have some part to play in this debate, Whether we agree on them or not. Ive heard truth is relative , well in the world of politcs and religion combind maybe it is. What is your view on islam and the story I gave above? The reason I started this thread is because I believe there is much to be debated as I said above.

I don't work too hard nowadays to form opinions with regard to issues beyond my immediate responsibility and influence.

This comes from the bitter experience of attempting to influence issues which, with hindsight, were never so willing to be influenced anyway, while personal concerns fell to the wayside, sadly neglected.

It is hard enough to keep track and make sense of immediate friends, family and ordinary business, and it has always been clear enough to me anyway that the World would be a much more pleasant, peaceful place to be if they all did the same, were they all to get on with minding their own business.

They may call that negative. I call it common sense.

--- RH.

Then why bother?

I said the same thing in what I called rambling or constructed debate. Maybe he feels the need to holt any interesting debate on this whole site.

Yes, cut2thepoint, I think we can all agree he's (perplexity) trouble.
--Pythagorean

Others my tell us why they bother, but whenever I have have asked they've rather appeared to resent the question.

I used to post frequently to more than dozen online forums but now it is down to less than a handful on any occasion.

I still get fooled into thinking that they mean what they say; that is the trouble.

They pretend to be friendly, easy going and open minded, with alternative opinion welcome, so .....and then.....

Fortunately, the repetition dilutes my curiosity; seen one, seen them all, one ego as good or bad as another.

--- RH.

Perplexity, why would you judge all people by some bad experiences you have had with 'the many'. Don't you realize that some individuals can be different?

You don't seem to believe that you can learn anything new. With all due respect, you seem close minded.

If you want this thead to be closed then carry on!

Perplexity has alot to say in terms of sence, he is right. Why toil in things that actully result in nothing. We could uncover the keys to the universe right here on this forum, but when you wake up in the morning it would be exactly the same as the day before we descovered it. The most important thing to consentrate on in life is...our own lives, yet certain people (me for one) choose to seek out the very things that wont make a difference anyway.

So infact, perplexities views are valid, weather it adds to this thread or not. So now thats said, lets get on with this thread, please.

I would not and I do.



I am a mature 57 year old adult.

The next great change in life I look forward to is death.

I do not therefore expect to be treated as a child in need of learning.

Instead of the talk about the new, I might be more impressed to be told what I had not been told before, too many times over.

--- RH.

I disagree. I believe the internet is a wonderful opportunity in the area of social change and consciousness raising.

If we uncover 'the keys to the universe', we could share it with many people, who are asking and ready for it.

The original post regarding Islam is an important one, I think. I often view the world from macrocosmic perspective.

India is becoming more materialized after centuries of focusing on the spiritual. The West is becoming spiritualized, even if we view the 'new age movement' as a bunch of BS, people ARE trying new things.

Our administration through the military is in the heart of Islam. There is something going on in terms of not just globalization and corporatism---but a cultural exchange is happening as well. Of course, we are not getting reports on this area.

I have studied many mystical traditions and can only add to this conversation by saying the philosophy of Sufism is absolutely beautiful.

GREAT! what is the point ? what started off as a debate about islam has turned into something else. If you want to talk about this type of thing then start a new thread about it! I WONT BE SPEAKING ON THIS THREAD NOW AS IT IS RUINED.

Who are you speaking to?