Philosophy is Conceptual Poetry

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Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2009 01:00 am
I view philosophy as a genre of creative writing --poetry. (The word poet comes from the word maker.) And I don't mean poet in the sense of John Keats. But I do mean poet in the sense of the diary of John Keats. I'm suggesting that truth is made not found.

Keats presented a notion of "negative capability" which is similar to Richard Rorty's use of the term ironist.

To call philosophy poetry is to insist that it is not a reflection of but an interpretation of "reality' -- just as the word "reality" which is already in the singular case is part of such an interpretation.

To call philosophy conceptual poetry is to emphasize its abstractness, in contrast to the concreteness of what is traditionally understood as poetry.

Philosophy is an ambitious poetry, audacious enough to describe the totality, truth, philosophy itself -- and also to describe such descriptions.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sat 12 Dec, 2009 06:07 pm
@Reconstructo,
No one wants to engage this? Ah, come one. We sing our little songs.

The secret sits in the middle and knows. / We dance around in a ring and suppose.
 
Quinn phil
 
Reply Sat 12 Dec, 2009 06:34 pm
@Reconstructo,
Couldn't agree more, so, couldn't discuss more. :a-ok:
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sat 12 Dec, 2009 06:52 pm
@Reconstructo,
Ah, man, it feels good to have someone see what I mean by this. Thanks!
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Sat 12 Dec, 2009 07:51 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;107209 wrote:
I'm suggesting that truth is made not found.
From one point of view, the artist is only the passive transmitter of a light that seems to be "other." From another, the artist is the god of his creation: actively dictating each detail.

Neither perspective is entirely true.

I've used philosophy in my life as a map... when I felt like I was in uncharted waters... the only person who ever looked at things "this way" it's gives emotional stability, orientation, to find out that I'm not only not alone, but that the map is actually pretty big.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sat 12 Dec, 2009 08:29 pm
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;110731 wrote:
From one point of view, the artist is only the passive transmitter of a light that seems to be "other." From another, the artist is the god of his creation: actively dictating each detail.

Neither perspective is entirely true.

I've used philosophy in my life as a map... when I felt like I was in uncharted waters... the only person who ever looked at things "this way" it's gives emotional stability, orientation, to find out that I'm not only not alone, but that the map is actually pretty big.



I can totally get down with this. For "philosophy is not conceptal poetry" is also conceptual poetry. And the "artist as a passive transmitter of light" is a poem that makes sense to me.

Thanks for joining the conversation,
recon
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 12:21 am
@Reconstructo,
Poetry? not so sure. Convince me more please.

Yes both truly beautiful, truly inspiring, truly worthy.

But i think poetry although a study also, is without necessary intent and direction where philosophy has more and so much more.

Poetry; If you get it, you get it, if you dont you can find it elsewhere, in-where, everywhere.
Philosophy; is full of intentions and purposes to learn and teach truth, you have to go find it, you have to work harder for it.
Where as poetry is search for aesthetic sometimes and often over truth alone.

You can lie very well in poetry and it will still be regarded as a triumph.
Where as with philosophy you can only lie to yourself and get away with it and even then it is unlikely.

Poetry does not need to be read as much as philosophy needs to be published.

Philosphy is discussion/deliberation over poetry as a statement/stationary even if asking something.
However no need to make your philosophy unatractive.

Philosophy insists, poetry enlists.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 12:40 am
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;110814 wrote:
Poetry? not so sure. Convince me more please.


It's conceptual poetry. Also it's a metaphor, to cast new light on what some think is anti-poetry (philosophy).

Philosophy is composed of dead metaphors, many of which have a negative prefix. For instance, "infinite," "absolute," "in-dependent," "immaterial."

We understand the world largely by means of metaphor, which is associated with poetry. I do realize how strange "philosophy is poetry" might sound. But that may contribute toward it being a valuable metaphor.

I want to call attention to the importance of metaphor in philosophy, and that is especially why I call it conceptual poetry....
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 01:56 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;110700 wrote:
No one wants to engage this? Ah, come one. We sing our little songs.

The secret sits in the middle and knows. / We dance around in a ring and suppose.


It is just that I haven't the least idea of what you mean by "poetry". You certainly don't mean it literally, since if you meant it literally, it would be so obviously false that philosophy is poetry, that you would not say such a thing except provokingly.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 02:31 am
@Reconstructo,
I suppose you have see "poetry" as I do, in the broadest sense, as creative writing. The tradition of philosophy is an abstract Odyssey -- featuring the critical mind as Ulysses.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 02:39 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;110820 wrote:
It's conceptual poetry. Also it's a metaphor, to cast new light on what some think is anti-poetry (philosophy).

Philosophy is composed of dead metaphors, many of which have a negative prefix. For instance, "infinite," "absolute," "in-dependent," "immaterial."

We understand the world largely by means of metaphor, which is associated with poetry. I do realize how strange "philosophy is poetry" might sound. But that may contribute toward it being a valuable metaphor.

I want to call attention to the importance of metaphor in philosophy, and that is especially why I call it conceptual poetry....


Philosophy is conceptual poetry, is philosophical statement.

So philosophy is construct metaphor.
Poetry is often raw imagination at best and it seems the only similarity is that it can also be a construction of a metaphor, sometimes.

'We understand the world largely by means of metaphor', primarily through philosophy.
Poetry is all make-believe into belief, until it is questioned.

I am glad you said 'associated' with poetry.

It is highly valuable, because it asks us about our nature with imagination, and what makes a story truthful by the way it is told.

And for that concept alone i salute you.

Philosophy and poetry both teach us how to hear, only one can be easily replaced or even forgotten, for the better sometimes of more poetry you meet for the first time, philosophy teaches you to be prepared, poetry teaches you to be surprised.
Although to be metrical and iambic is a ***** to get and then get rid of.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 02:42 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;110837 wrote:
I suppose you have see "poetry" as I do, in the broadest sense, as creative writing. The tradition of philosophy is an abstract Odyssey -- featuring the critical mind as Ulysses.


Yes. That is exactly what I meant. Except that you also use the term, "philosophy", non-literally. The confluence makes a mighty muddy river.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 02:43 am
@Reconstructo,
"Beauty is truth; truth beauty " Keats
"How can we tell the dancer from the dance?" Yeats
"Where The Fire and the Rose are One.." Eliot
"What is love?" Some popular song lyric.
Shelly's long poem of Keats is very philosophical.
Byron's Don Juan is philosophical in its proto-Nietzschean way. So are Shakespeare's sonnets at times. It's not such a leap.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 03:03 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;110842 wrote:
"Beauty is truth; truth beauty " Keats
"How can we tell the dancer from the dance?" Yeats
"Where The Fire and the Rose are One.." Eliot
"What is love?" Some popular song lyric.
Shelly's long poem of Keats is very philosophical.
Byron's Don Juan is philosophical in its proto-Nietzschean way. So are Shakespeare's sonnets at times. It's not such a leap.



Even if some poetry is philosophy, that does not mean that all philosophy is poetry. At best it would mean that some philosophy is poetry. But, of course, that there is some philosophy in poetry would not mean that any philosophy was poetry. Distinctions, distinctions. Bothersome if you are poetisizing, but necessary if you are philosophizing.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 03:25 am
@Reconstructo,
Sure, distinctions are great. But my metaphor "philosophy is poetry" is a disclosing sort of statement. I'm calling attention to a neglected aspect of philosophy, that it is creative writing rich with metaphor. I'm exaggerating to get a point across, you might say. Just like Marx did. Just like Schopenhauer and Nietzsche did. And it worked. Their exaggerations have been assimilated.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Tue 15 Dec, 2009 01:10 am
@Reconstructo,
Jesus said "I am the Truth." Now this is a radical statement for philosophy. This is a union of neo-pragmatism and the Sophia of the mystics.

Any other attitude tends to be submissive. The thinker kneels to god. The thinker kneels to logic. This statement of Christ is an ultra-Romantic Satanic claiming of the truth. This is to one-up Schopenhauer. Nietzsche was already there sometimes. Just as he was sometimes a female element and sometimes a stick of TNT. But he got it from Jesus and Byron. Both of whom were in his face as a growing boy.

As Spengler said, Faustian Western Christian man conceives himself not as a body but rather as force. I admit, "I am the Truth" is something Caligula might say. To appreciate it without irony or decency is dangerous. But we do have a radical and sublime conception of truth lurking in a book that some mistake for conservative.

Socrates and Jesus were put to death. Most of us identify with one or the other if not both, and yet how quick are we to insult those who question our knowledge or our motive? I say that our knowledge and motives are related, that we are networks of belief and desire. We bump against ideas and assimilate the ones that increase the integrity of the network. Some ideas threaten us. We resist them, counter them, negate them. This forum is collision of such networks. We networks collide like amoeba. Sometimes a painful collision inspires an evolution. We only replace a part (belief) that seems broken, and parts can only seem broken in relation to other parts.

Just as the body replaces its cell and remains somehow the same, so do we replace old beliefs and desire and maintain our identities -- which may be no more than nodes on the nexus, a signature on a self-editing canvas.

If the above post is not conceptual poetry, what is it?
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 01:34 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;107209 wrote:
I view philosophy as a genre of creative writing --poetry. (The word poet comes from the word maker.) And I don't mean poet in the sense of John Keats. But I do mean poet in the sense of the diary of John Keats. I'm suggesting that truth is made not found.

Keats presented a notion of "negative capability" which is similar to Richard Rorty's use of the term ironist.

To call philosophy poetry is to insist that it is not a reflection of but an interpretation of "reality' -- just as the word "reality" which is already in the singular case is part of such an interpretation.

To call philosophy conceptual poetry is to emphasize its abstractness, in contrast to the concreteness of what is traditionally understood as poetry.

Philosophy is an ambitious poetry, audacious enough to describe the totality, truth, philosophy itself -- and also to describe such descriptions.

That's what philosophy "can" be, it can also be nonsens, it cal also be delusive, it can be whatever you make it.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 01:41 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;127391 wrote:
That's what philosophy "can" be, it can also be nonsens, it cal also be delusive, it can be whatever you make it.


This may surprise you, but I agree with everything you said. No need to assume I was providing as exhaustive account of its possibilities. Keep looking around. My old posts are all over the place. I'm not a one-trick pony. I'm a horse of a different color.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Fri 12 Feb, 2010 02:05 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;127393 wrote:
This may surprise you, but I agree with everything you said. No need to assume I was providing as exhaustive account of its possibilities. Keep looking around. My old posts are all over the place. I'm not a one-trick pony. I'm a horse of a different color.
That may be all other posts made by you are of infinitivly high quality, but I evaluate each post individualy. Sorry.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 12:29 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;127405 wrote:
That may be all other posts made by you are of infinitivly high quality, but I evaluate each post individualy. Sorry.


I forgive you. You don't lack energy.
 
 

 
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