speculative philosophy

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Aedes
 
Reply Sun 27 Sep, 2009 09:47 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;93996 wrote:
And for various reasons it has practically been written off in the modern world. ('too hard', 'too obscure', 'not provable', 'like science fiction', etc etc)...
I think it's been abandoned as a project for two principal reasons:

1) We're not as great as we think. We're self-destructive in the extreme, and being rational and smart and inventive does nothing to protect us from self-destructiveness.

2) We have learned a lot about human psychology and human decisionmaking, and have recognized that while we're rational our reason is under constant assault by irrational aspects of us.

The above makes this sort of self-celebration in Western philosophy seem naive.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Sun 27 Sep, 2009 10:39 pm
@prothero,
Seems kind of a defeatist attitude to me, really. I think there are many important insights that can be retrieved from the Western tradition, re-interpreted and re-used. I think we are actually in a much better position to do that now, in this post-modern age, than we were 100 years ago, in many ways. But the will does have to be there.
 
richrf
 
Reply Sun 27 Sep, 2009 10:49 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;93992 wrote:
You could apply existentialism to everything in life. You have complete freedom to pursue anything, any system, and you are beholden only to your own authentic self-assessment. The single unifying principle is the individual's judgement and freedom. This is why people can have internal consistency among apparently incompatible beliefs (for instance I am a practicing Jew but I'm also in a sense an atheist -- because it works in my way of balancing things).


I found this approach not very helpful. It may be helpful to other people thought. I would have no idea how to apply these ideas to all of the activities that I am involved with nor does it assist in answering any of the questions that I have. It is a philosophy for another type of person than me.

Rich
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Sun 27 Sep, 2009 11:25 pm
@prothero,
It also puts the human ego at the centre of the universe.

no wonder Camus got so depressed.
 
Emil
 
Reply Mon 28 Sep, 2009 12:09 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;93958 wrote:
And that means that (you think) it is about nothing in particular. That explains a lot too.


Indeed. It's contingent content is 0.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Mon 28 Sep, 2009 01:02 am
@prothero,
Bottom line is, if you restrict yourself to considering only what you are able to know for certain, you will find that life descends into meaninglessness and absurdity, as has been demonstrated time and time again in the history of cultures. A lot of modern philosophy is nothing more than the defence of bourgeois normality and a way to ratonalise and defend the ego in the face of its unavoidable end.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Mon 28 Sep, 2009 07:47 am
@richrf,
richrf;94006 wrote:
I found this approach not very helpful. It may be helpful to other people thought. I would have no idea how to apply these ideas to all of the activities that I am involved with nor does it assist in answering any of the questions that I have. It is a philosophy for another type of person than me.
You may not realize it, but it actually is your philosophy. It allows you to freely consider and integrate ideas from different philosophical and intellectual traditions, as opposed to considering yourself rigidly beholden to one at the exclusion of another. It allows you an individualized learning, apprehension, and assimilation.

---------- Post added 09-28-2009 at 09:49 AM ----------

jeeprs;94004 wrote:
Seems kind of a defeatist attitude to me, really.
The Titanic, A-bomb, global warming, etc are lessons in why we should temper pride with defeatism.

jeeprs;94004 wrote:
I think we are actually in a much better position to do that now, in this post-modern age, than we were 100 years ago, in many ways.
I completely agree, that's my point. We are less thrilled with our ingenuity when we're self-conscious of its down side.
 
richrf
 
Reply Mon 28 Sep, 2009 12:42 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;94054 wrote:
You may not realize it, but it actually is your philosophy. It allows you to freely consider and integrate ideas from different philosophical and intellectual traditions, as opposed to considering yourself rigidly beholden to one at the exclusion of another. It allows you an individualized learning, apprehension, and assimilation.


I have read some works by the existentialists, and whereas I do enjoy reading about their ideas, they are quite different from my own. I would say that my philosophy is closer to the pre-Socratic Greek philosophers such as Heraclitis mixed in with lots of Eastern Philosophy and ideas as well as those that I have developed on my own.

Rich
 
Aedes
 
Reply Mon 28 Sep, 2009 12:58 pm
@prothero,
but you are not a pre-Socratic, you're as modern as anyone else but you assimilate certain ancient philosophies into your modern thoughts -- and you aren't wholly invested in a single ancient philosophy. Existentialism isn't really a philosophy in the same way, it's simply the freedom to self-define.
 
richrf
 
Reply Mon 28 Sep, 2009 01:20 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;94104 wrote:
but you are not a pre-Socratic, you're as modern as anyone else but you assimilate certain ancient philosophies into your modern thoughts -- and you aren't wholly invested in a single ancient philosophy. Existentialism isn't really a philosophy in the same way, it's simply the freedom to self-define.


I would not share this central proposition.

Existentialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"A central proposition of existentialism is that existence precedes essence, which means that the actual life of the individual is what constitutes what could be called his or her "essence" instead of there being a predetermined essence that defines what it is to be a human."

But everyone has their own way of understanding philosophies. Heraclitus and Daoism resonate with me as well as various other things that I have read and experienced.

Rich
 
Aedes
 
Reply Mon 28 Sep, 2009 01:31 pm
@prothero,
The primacy of existence over essence was conjured by the existentialists in response to antisemitism, racism, and war, during the generation after WWII. The idea is that humans are humans first and X (jews, whites, blacks, thieves) second. Therefore we do not pass immediate judgement upon them, we validate them as humans first.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Mon 28 Sep, 2009 03:32 pm
@prothero,
I was going to say, this week the leaders of the U.S., China, and Russia, among others, sat down at a table and signed a treaty, the aim of which is to rid the world of nuclear weapons. Now of course it may never come to fruition but the fact of its signature is at least cause for optimism.

And there are two existentialists I really admire: Erich Fromm and Viktor Frankl. Nevertheless I could never wholeheartedly endorse the idea that 'existence precedes essence'. We are born with talents and pre-dispositions, and these seem awfully like 'essence' to me.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 28 Sep, 2009 05:17 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;94125 wrote:
I was going to say, this week the leaders of the U.S., China, and Russia, among others, sat down at a table and signed a treaty, the aim of which is to rid the world of nuclear weapons. Now of course it may never come to fruition but the fact of its signature is at least cause for optimism.

And there are two existentialists I really admire: Erich Fromm and Viktor Frankl. Nevertheless I could never wholeheartedly endorse the idea that 'existence precedes essence'. We are born with talents and pre-dispositions, and these seem awfully like 'essence' to me.


Hmm. Were Iran and North Korea signatories? When did this sit-down occur?
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Mon 28 Sep, 2009 07:14 pm
@prothero,
Some place called 'United Nations', I believe. Iran didn't sign, but was definitely mentioned. I was actually a bit saddened by the lack of attention it got because I hope it will prove to be a turning point in history.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 28 Sep, 2009 11:58 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;94159 wrote:
Some place called 'United Nations', I believe. Iran didn't sign, but was definitely mentioned. I was actually a bit saddened by the lack of attention it got because I hope it will prove to be a turning point in history.


I consider that hope very, very optimistic. To say the least. It is the kind of thing that Oscar Wilde called, "the triumph of hope over experience" (which was how he defined a "second marriage"). The UN, the home of intentionally lost causes.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Tue 29 Sep, 2009 12:22 am
@prothero,
Yeah, yeah, I know, it'll never work, let's go back to building bomb shelters and hoarding soy. At least that new guy you have is making gestures in the direction of 'making the world a better place'.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 29 Sep, 2009 12:46 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;94202 wrote:
Yeah, yeah, I know, it'll never work, let's go back to building bomb shelters and hoarding soy. At least that new guy you have is making gestures in the direction of 'making the world a better place'.


What makes you think that? Appeasers never make the world a better place, they make it a worse place, and it is time we all stopped mistaking the shadow for the substance.
 
salima
 
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 07:56 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;94125 wrote:
I was going to say, this week the leaders of the U.S., China, and Russia, among others, sat down at a table and signed a treaty, the aim of which is to rid the world of nuclear weapons. Now of course it may never come to fruition but the fact of its signature is at least cause for optimism.

And there are two existentialists I really admire: Erich Fromm and Viktor Frankl. Nevertheless I could never wholeheartedly endorse the idea that 'existence precedes essence'. We are born with talents and pre-dispositions, and these seem awfully like 'essence' to me.


jeeprs, you didnt read the fine print...it must have said they agreed to do their best to rid everyone else in the world of their nuclear weapons
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 11:06 am
@salima,
salima;94393 wrote:
jeeprs, you didnt read the fine print...it must have said they agreed to do their best to rid everyone else in the world of their nuclear weapons


Nuclear weapons do not go off by themselves. What we have to do is, rather, to get rid of all of those who want to use those weapons to murder others, and who threaten to do so. For instance, to wipe another nation "off the map".
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2009 05:43 am
@prothero,
YEAH WELL The Nobel Committee agreed with me and not with all the cynics. So maybe there is hope after all.
 
 

 
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