The Meta-narrative of Awakening

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pagan
 
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 08:24 am
@richrf,
Quote:
I think each path is valid. But I have known people who tried to breakthrough, got very frustrated, and eventually fell into ill health by trying to hard.
yes thats a very good point. Though cosmic consciousness or awakening or enlightenment (whatever the word) may indeed be a benign state, the route in trying to achieve it can be fraught with all kinds of emotional pitfalls. Sudden or gradual the path.

The problem i feel is in the promise. People trust and preconceive very poorly at times. You could waste years of your life and even cause yourself ill health by trying to become awakened ..... especially in the hands of charlatans and people that don't really care about you. Foreign lands are full of lost western souls. Far more lost than when they left home.
 
richrf
 
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 08:35 am
@pagan,
pagan;81749 wrote:
yes thats a very good point. Though cosmic consciousness or awakening or enlightenment (whatever the word) may indeed be a benign state, the route in trying to achieve it can be fraught with all kinds of emotional pitfalls. Sudden or gradual the path. .


Itzhak Bentov, in a video that was made of him during an interview, suggested that we are all evolving together, some maybe a bit faster than others (the normal curve), but we evolve no matter what. So, he felt that one can meditate or not (he did a lot of Buddhist meditation in his life), it is of no matter, since everyone is evolving together. Smile I thought that was an interesting thought.

Rich
 
pagan
 
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 09:21 am
@richrf,
Quote:
So, he felt that one can meditate or not (he did a lot of Buddhist meditation in his life), it is of no matter, since everyone is evolving together. Smile I thought that was an interesting thought.


i agree it is an interesting thought ....... and it raises a rather awkward question. Why is the awakened state of mind so incredibly rare as claimed by those who recognise it?
 
richrf
 
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 12:07 pm
@pagan,
pagan;81764 wrote:
i agree it is an interesting thought ....... and it raises a rather awkward question. Why is the awakened state of mind so incredibly rare as claimed by those who recognise it?


My own opinion is that it is a marketing gimmick. It creates artificial rarity and a marketplace for those who desire to have this rare experience and those who profess that they know how to get there. But I see no problem with it. I think all experiences of all sorts are fine and increase awareness of the world. It's all there, the dark and the light, the fast and the slow ...

Rich
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 04:13 pm
@jeeprs,
To be honest, I think there needs to be a sense of urgency to respond appropriately to a question such as this. But I don't think anything I write here will be sufficient to impart it. It might only come about as a result of a crisis of some kind, or it might not come about at all.
 
salima
 
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 06:41 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;81815 wrote:
To be honest, I think there needs to be a sense of urgency to respond appropriately to a question such as this. But I don't think anything I write here will be sufficient to impart it. It might only come about as a result of a crisis of some kind, or it might not come about at all.


i would say awakening includes at its core a gradually all-encompassing sense of self, so there is no need to worry about someone becoming enlightened and remaining self-serving. his self and your self then are the same, the issue disappears.

also i once rejected buddhism because of its apparent 'coldness' but i find that the principles are true and work also for one who who chooses to be ecstatically involved at any point of time while being detached enough to disengage and go on to something else. one does not have to give up a passion for life, but merely learn to accommodate pain and pleasure both.

the other interesting thing to me is that though the traditions often quoted and embraced by the west as having eastern origin, my experience in one country at least has not provided a single solitary living citizen who has any idea of what is contained in the vedic texts. i am the only one i know here who has read the upanishads. they do read the ramayana and those who cannot read watch it on television repeatedly, but seem to only be able to relate the events without even moral lessons. i have to wonder what influence any of these teachings has actually had on civilization in this part of the world. it seems to me that this knowledge and experience has only been known to a select few and never filtered down to Everyman. the society here has been held captive by a group who wish to use their traditions and customs, which is all most people are aware of in their total cultural legacy, as a means of controlling the vote bank. i cant speak for china, but i truly feel that india is sorely in need of being introduced to its own true wealth.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Fri 7 Aug, 2009 10:45 pm
@jeeprs,
That is curious. Indian philosophy has had huge impact on me. I have spent time on ashrams and Buddhist retreat centres and studied Sanskrit and Indian philosophy at University. My outlook has been greatly changed by Sri Ramana Maharishi and Krishnamurti. Maybe there are not that many people who are willing to engage with these teachings. On the other hand, the Insight Meditation Centres of S. N. Goenka claimed to have trained 100,000 people worldwide in 2007. That is a huge number in my mind. (Mind you I work in a company with a lot of Indian employees and a big operation in Hyderabad, and I rarely discuss any of this with anyone there.)
 
salima
 
Reply Sat 8 Aug, 2009 01:19 am
@pagan,
pagan;81764 wrote:
i agree it is an interesting thought ....... and it raises a rather awkward question. Why is the awakened state of mind so incredibly rare as claimed by those who recognise it?


i suspect that it is becoming increasingly less rare daily. not sure though what you exactly mean by 'the awakened state of mind'. if you mean what i mean, then yes-it is in my opinion fast becoming unrare.


"(Mind you I work in a company with a lot of Indian employees and a big operation in Hyderabad, and I rarely discuss any of this with anyone there.)"..........Jeeprs

i would hazard a guess that most of them are atheists. this is what i see happening now among the most highly educated younger people in india-the majority of them are hindu of course, and they are giving up any belief in it at all, but they retain the customs for the sake of structure and family ties. that has been my observation so far, anyway. if their parents had properly understood the teachings it would have made sense and had some value, but they were handed a bill of goods like christians were in the west, and the newer generations are all reacting the same way. but things here seem to be about 50 years behind the times-since i remember america 50 years ago, i can recognize it. but they may catch up to where america is today in less than 50 years, just like the second born seems to learn everything faster than the firstborn child.

so what i am saying is that the shift in consciousness (and there must be one because the human brain and any other part of us we wish to acknowledge is and has always been evolving) is beginning in the west, though it has been inspired in the east, and gradually will go back and meet its beginning to unify. my guess, anyway...
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Sat 8 Aug, 2009 02:35 am
@jeeprs,
the gate has always been narrow
 
pagan
 
Reply Sat 8 Aug, 2009 02:45 am
@salima,
Quote:
rich-My own opinion is that it is a marketing gimmick. It creates artificial rarity and a marketplace for those who desire to have this rare experience and those who profess that they know how to get there.
yeh thats a sentiment i have heard before and sometimes it feels right and sometimes not. I think the marketing gimmick is definitely used by charlatans, and by that i include people who are very well respected in a religion but are not spiritual at all. (like the catholic priests scandal).

..............but if awakening is so precious to humanity and nature, so unselfish, why keep it a secret? The only reason i can think of is that the teaching is not like learning to be a plumber. It is unpredictable and easily misunderstood? Thus it appears to be kept a secret. But that says something about awakening in itself! There is no getting away from the fact that these teachings have been around for thousands of years .... and the populace today overwhelmingly choose consumerism if it is available.

---------- Post added 08-08-2009 at 09:47 AM ----------

Quote:
jeeprs - the gate has always been narrow
exactly! why is that?

---------- Post added 08-08-2009 at 09:53 AM ----------

Quote:

salima - so what i am saying is that the shift in consciousness (and there must be one because the human brain and any other part of us we wish to acknowledge is and has always been evolving) is beginning in the west, though it has been inspired in the east, and gradually will go back and meet its beginning to unify. my guess, anyway...
i find that a bit strange though to be honest. The west invents consumerism, gets meditation from the east, spreads consumerism ...... awakening starts to grow? Isn't it consumerism that is growing?
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Sat 8 Aug, 2009 03:12 am
@jeeprs,
That sounds evangalistic, and is not what I meant. Another way of putting it. It is almost like a particular sense of humour. You can't really explain to someone who doesn't find it funny, what is funny about it.

I will try and explain some more. I had 'spiritual experiences' as a child. They were very vivid, fleeting, but also intensely real. They are very hard to explain and there is probably no point in trying.

I have said elsewhere on this forum, I was 15 - 16 at the time of Woodstock. It was the Summer of Love. I had some, how shall we say, ethnogenic experiences at this time which were completely life changing. I was not the only one. Many of us tried to relate these experiences to a philosophy of life. The Beatles were into Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and TM. The song on Sgt Peppers 'Within You and Without You' and so on.

That was all 40 years ago now. Of course, much water under the bridge. The whole sixties thing came unstuck. For me, it just meant that I dropped out for a few years and it made life pretty tough on the mundane level. But I stayed true to what I had found then and now I am really glad that I have. I studied Comparitive Religion at university (a totally useless thing to do) and learned Vipassana. It has taken a lot of time and soul searching. But now it is starting to bear fruit. What this means is really just a 'causeless joy'. There is nothing to in, and nothing in it, but hardly anyone seems to know what it is, and life would seem hardly worth living without it. It lends a whole new meaning to the idea of Nothing, believe me! It really is this sense of absolute joy in the very middle of all existence with no rationale, no necessity. That is about all I can say. Beautiful Sanskrit word for it - ananda. Actually the very beautiful Sanskrit term is sat-chit-ananda - being-knowing-blissfulness. Nothing is any better than that, not anything.

There is much yet to be done, but having come thus far I can only be grateful.
 
pagan
 
Reply Sat 8 Aug, 2009 03:55 am
@jeeprs,
Quote:
jeeprs - That sounds evangalistic, and is not what I meant. Another way of putting it. It is almost like a particular sense of humour. You can't really explain to someone who doesn't find it funny, what is funny about it.
Apologies but I didn't mean to imply that sense at all. I was just concogitating Smile ....."the teaching is not like learning to be a plumber. It is unpredictable and easily misunderstood? Thus it appears to be kept a secret."

The cultural evolution thing is a hopeful perspective for sure, though i cant help but notice an aspect of evolution. That it spreads life so much as it apparently 'progresses' it. Similarly for cultural forms. Diversity is inherent and necessary for evolution to work. It is in that sense a multi narrative. Bacteria rule the earth ..... or is it us? Smile It appears that one form cannot take over from the rest.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Sat 8 Aug, 2009 04:22 am
@jeeprs,
well it has to do with 'eschatology' - the destiny of souls. Mine is that we are here to know - 'know' in the sense of awaken to the beauty and glory of life on earth of which we are a fruition. This means a complete awakening beyond the narrow interests of one's own profession or nationality or ethnicity. Now actually this is friendly to the understanding of many different spiritual perspectives and persuasions. I am one who believes there is truth in all the great faiths, and they all have their own unique perspective. And this is the meta-narrative they are speaking.

peace to all.
 
salima
 
Reply Sat 8 Aug, 2009 05:42 am
@pagan,
pagan;81877 wrote:
Apologies but I didn't mean to imply that sense at all. I was just concogitating Smile ....."the teaching is not like learning to be a plumber. It is unpredictable and easily misunderstood? Thus it appears to be kept a secret."


the teachings are no longer secret, there are no more secrets. but there is a certain evolutionary change that has to take place in the mechanics of a human being which meditation of any kind seem to set the stage towards. and yes, the people who charge for their teachings are charlatans. there may have been a time there was a need for secrets, but i think that would be more along the lines of being hung or burned at the stake for heresy, which a lot of enlightened people were, i would think. drugs also can bring it on, but that is dangerous because the psychology of a person may not be ready to pursue personal growth or may not give up the drugs and self destruct before it can move on. but like it has been posted here, the change is going to happen anyway whether every individual works towards it or not, and the entire species is being carried on ahead. at least it appears that way to me.
 
William
 
Reply Sat 8 Aug, 2009 05:48 am
@richrf,
richrf;81280 wrote:


Into the Wild - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And then the author died, knowing that relationships did matter.

Rich


Hello Rich, I am assuming you are talking about Krakauer as the author? If so when did he die?:perplexed:

William

---------- Post added 08-08-2009 at 07:30 AM ----------

jeeprs;81881 wrote:
well it has to do with 'eschatology' - the destiny of souls. Mine is that we are here to know - 'know' in the sense of awaken to the beauty and glory of life on earth of which we are a fruition. This means a complete awakening beyond the narrow interests of one's own profession or nationality or ethnicity. Now actually this is friendly to the understanding of many different spiritual perspectives and persuasions. I am one who believes there is truth in all the great faiths, and they all have their own unique perspective. And this is the meta-narrative they are speaking.

peace to all.


That's a great observation jeepers and IMO, you are right; how can we learn from those "individual truth's" when each feel their perspective "IS" the truth?.

Thanks,
William
 
richrf
 
Reply Sat 8 Aug, 2009 08:22 am
@William,
William;81887 wrote:
Hello Rich, I am assuming you are talking about Krakauer as the author? If so when did he die?:perplexed:


Hi William,

I was speaking of Christopher McCandless. Christopher, in his diary concludes that a happy life is one shared with others, not one spent alone, right before he perishes in the wild.

Rich
 
William
 
Reply Sat 8 Aug, 2009 02:42 pm
@richrf,
richrf;81900 wrote:
Hi William,

I was speaking of Christopher McCandless. Christopher, in his diary concludes that a happy life is one shared with others, not one spent alone, right before he perishes in the wild.

Rich


Rich, could you provide me a link that has the contents to that "diary" as I cannot find it. From what I know of McCandless, I would like to read in his own words those motivations that drove him "into the wild" and compare it to what others qre interpretating it to be, such a Krakauer. This "forced" isolation can be equated with many such "isolationalistic" constructs at odds with the reality of this world such as that exhibited by Buddhist Monks, Convents, mental illness and even meditation for they cannot find the answers they seek in this reality. I find it ironic that the very rich, responsible for this reality find it necessary to also be isolated from it as they live behind gates, and stone walls and state of the art security systems resemblent of the moats of Feudal Kings.

Thanks my friend as I continue in my quest to tie up a lot of loose ends. Smile

William
 
richrf
 
Reply Sat 8 Aug, 2009 04:20 pm
@William,
William;81944 wrote:
Rich, could you provide me a link that has the contents to that "diary" as I cannot find it. From what I know of McCandless, I would like to read in his own words those motivations that drove him "into the wild" and compare it to what others qre interpretating it to be, such a Krakauer. This "forced" isolation can be equated with many such "isolationalistic" constructs at odds with the reality of this world such as that exhibited by Buddhist Monks, Convents, mental illness and even meditation for they cannot find the answers they seek in this reality. I find it ironic that the very rich, responsible for this reality find it necessary to also be isolated from it as they live behind gates, and stone walls and state of the art security systems resemblent of the moats of Feudal Kings.

Thanks my friend as I continue in my quest to tie up a lot of loose ends. Smile

William


Hi William,

If you go to Amazon.com and look into the book, search for the word shared. This is the quote:

"Happiness only real when shared."

It is on page 189.

He makes other references to looking for someone to share with.

Hope this helps.

Rich
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Sat 8 Aug, 2009 04:37 pm
@jeeprs,
A song about it. Check out the lyric: "nothing you can do about it, too strong to be denied'

Nothing You Can Do About It
 
William
 
Reply Sat 8 Aug, 2009 05:56 pm
@jeeprs,
Rich, I have searched until I am blue in the face as to the "the actual journal" itself with no avail other than a "few" excerpts. If you have a "link" to the journal itself other that what Krakauer says it says, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks,
william

---------- Post added 08-08-2009 at 07:52 PM ----------

From what I can gather, it is apparent his family has the journal and it is probably in their best interest it not be published in the public domain. I would love to read what this bright young man had to say as to his perception of this reality that drove him to the extremes he went to, to find "freedom" and peace of mind, when by all indications some who talk about his life seem to think he had everything a person needed?

William

---------- Post added 08-08-2009 at 08:07 PM ----------

jeeprs;81952 wrote:
A song about it. Check out the lyric: "nothing you can do about it, too strong to be denied'

Nothing You Can Do About It


Thank you jeepers, but I don't think we know what love is all about in it's truest since of the word. Not yet at the very least. We have literally millions of songs, sonnets and poems using the word and still there is my list? I think we have a long way to go. As I have mentioned in another thread, there are charmed people in this world who are pure love, but you will never encounter one unless it was meant to be.(edit) in other words, you can't seek them,IMO. I have encountered two, one male and one female and I am so greatful for those experiences. Smile

William
 
 

 
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