The Meta-narrative of Awakening

@jeeprs,

jeeprs;81293 wrote:

Adam Smith is quite correct within his realm of expertise. As far as being a happy and productive citizen then it is perfectly sound to advance and protect one's interests. Can't dispute that India has benefited from Westernization, either. Be that as it may, what has caught my attention is the idea that there is a state beyond worldly joys and suffering. Indian philosophy has a lot to say on this, notwithstanding the existence of poverty and deprivation in India.

It is just an idea. It doesn't correspond to anything. It is just that idea that has made the East care so little for science and industrial progress, and place it into the wretched state it is just beginning to emerge from.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;81286 wrote:

I have no idea what your point is. I look after my grandchildren because I love them, not because they are on my "team". Whatever do you mean? Do you see everything in terms of sports?

Well, I don't know about your meaning for love. For me, care for the other person, is an aspect. When I say I love my child, I am also saying I care for him. I am not saying I care for myself and I am Number One. In the same token, when I say I love my plants, I also mean to say that I care for them.

Now, that is not to say that someone could not love a child or a child love their parent without caring for them. It is just not me. Maybe Adam Smith loved his children but only cared for himself. I don't know. I never met him and asked him. How about you? Do you only care about yourself?

Rich

---------- Post added 08-04-2009 at 06:17 PM ----------

kennethamy;81312 wrote:

It is just an idea. It doesn't correspond to anything. It is just that idea that has made the East care so little for science and industrial progress, and place it into the wretched state it is just beginning to emerge from.

Whoops! Did you just say that India and China are in a wretched state all on their own accord? I sure hope that is not what you said. I do remember until very recently there was a concept of colonialism. I remember the Boxer Rebellion, during which time the Chinese tried to get rid of Britain, France, Japan and the U.S, because we were forcing opium down their throats. I believe all of the colonialist countries were using Adam Smith as their backdrop to support their colonialist policies.

Now, I guess, Western industrialize countries have gone through some sort of meta-awakening. Good for them.

Rich

@richrf,

richrf;81318 wrote:

Well, I don't know about your meaning for love. For me, care for the other person, is an aspect. When I say I love my child, I am also saying I care for him. I am not saying I care for myself and I am Number One. In the same token, when I say I love my plants, I also mean to say that I care for them.

Now, that is not to say that someone could not love a child or a child love their parent without caring for them. It is just not me. Maybe Adam Smith loved his children but only cared for himself. I don't know. I never met him and asked him. How about you? Do you only care about yourself?

Rich

---------- Post added 08-04-2009 at 06:17 PM ----------

Whoops! Did you just say that India and China are in a wretched state all on their own accord? I sure hope that is not what you said. I do remember until very recently there was a concept of colonialism. I remember the Boxer Rebellion, during which time the Chinese tried to get rid of Britain, France, Japan and the U.S, because we were forcing opium down their throats. I believe all of the colonialist countries were using Adam Smith as their backdrop to support their colonialist policies.

Now, I guess, Western industrialize countries have gone through some sort of meta-awakening. Good for them.

Rich

Well, I don't know about your meaning for love. For me, care for the other person, is an aspect.

Exactly. So when I care for the child, I am, of course, pleasing Number 1 .

Did you just say that India and China are in a wretched state all on their own accord? I sure hope that is not what you said. I do remember until very recently there was a concept of colonialism.

Well, it was not the European countries who allowed themselves to be colonized. It was the Chinese and the Indians. America was colonized. But it is now the leading industrial nation of the world. So the explanation of wretchedness cannot be colonization. The wretched cooperated. Anyway, I am not interested in apportioning blame. I just pointed out that it is no accident that the dreamy philosophy of the East resulted in - well what it resulted in.

@jeeprs,

no loss of joy, pagan. Only loss of attachment to things which promise joy and deliver only sorrow. The state, incidentally, is called nibbana, and though I cannot claim to be personally acquainted with it, I have reason to believe that it is genuine.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;81328 wrote:

Well, I don't know about your meaning for love. For me, care for the other person, is an aspect.

Exactly. So when I care for the child, I am, of course, pleasing Number 1 .

Well, I am glad you are pleased, and I hope your child is pleased. That is why we take care of each other. Relationships have a way of doing that.

By the way, do you tell your children that you are caring for them in order to please yourself? Sounds like a very nice thing for a Daddy to tell their children. Do you think Adam Smith laid that little bit of philosophy on his kids? Maybe he did?

Quote:

Well, it was not the European countries who allowed themselves to be colonized. It was the Chinese and the Indians.

I see. the Chinese and Indians asked for it. Nice thought.

Quote:

America was colonized.

Yes, and the American Indians suffered for it. But I guess they were asking for it also, when they welcomed the first colonists from Europe.

Quote:

But it is now the leading industrial nation of the world. So the explanation of wretchedness cannot be colonization.

Yep, India kicked out Britain and China kicked out the Nationalists. And now the Chinese are lending money to the Western industrial nations to keep them afloat.

Quote:

The wretched cooperated. Anyway, I am not interested in apportioning blame. I just pointed out that it is no accident that the dreamy philosophy of the East resulted in - well what it resulted in.

Well, I think it had less to do with Eastern philosophy, and more to do with Western heavy armaments. But time has moved on, and everyone has nuclear weapons. Hmmmm ... we may need some more awakening. This is suppose to be progress?? :sarcastic:

Rich

@jeeprs,

Quote:

It is just an idea. It doesn't correspond to anything. It is just that idea that has made the East care so little for science and industrial progress, and place it into the wretched state it is just beginning to emerge from.

I can't argue with common bigotry and don't see any point in trying. This is a very stereotyped depiction of eastern society and culture. There is much that can be learned from all of the high cultures in my view, including Indian and Chinese. If you think it is all backwards savagery, perhaps this says more about your own attitudes. Anyway that is definitely enough out of me on that topic, I am not going to engage in any further dialog with 'kennethamy'.

@jeeprs,

yes jeeprs, a nice thing about this forum is the ignore button. That way some writing doesn't even get posted when we visit. It is important sometimes to filter out sound that others find entertaining, but jangles our own ears too violently. (or wishishy washishy drivel from the other perspective lol)

I studied buddhism for a while, (not as a monk) and i learned a great deal from it. But the unattachment leading to not suffering was something i didn't like about it. It felt passionless and loveless to me..... removed too much into an abstract philosophical benign sense of well being. Nothing wrong with a bit of that for sure, but that state of mind to dominate one's life? ....... And besides, i dont think it can work. Suffering is physical pain but also the fear of loss. To react to such a natural fear, whether in your own life or of someone elses, seems essential to me. Suffer i must in order to care fully and immediately.

Having said that, meditation and impermanence and other teachings, do help rid the mind of lifes little irritations that somehow can get out of proportion ....... especially if there ain't an ignore button handy.:bigsmile:

@jeeprs,

Thanks pagan, I am with you on all that. I of course am very attracted to Buddhism, but what actually got me started on the whole spiritual trip was something else altogether. But personally I really needed that discipline of regular sitting - I have a strong imagination and am extremely garralous, so I was always jumping around like a monkey and talking at the top of my voice. I needed to find a way to integrate some of the insights I had had with daily life. I needed a 'vehicle' and that is what Dharma is.

Actually I was 'initiated' into meditation by a unique pair of new-age type teachers in Sydney in the late 70's. I was also reading a lot of various types of spiritual philosophy. It culminated in this awakening of the heart chakra which has stayed real ever since. It was what one teacher of the time called 'divine ignorance', kind of a spiritual unknowing. It has proven durable too, it has lasted and grown, so it was not just a flash in the pan. I have since discovered confirmation of this ability in a lot of Christian spiritual literature (mostly Eastern Orthodox actually, not Western.)

That idea of being kind of deliberately controlled or austere, I agree is colourless and bloodless. What has happened in my case is not like that. All I know is that there is this presence and reality that you can only be aware of on the deepest level of your being (i.e. the heart). It has helped to loosen the grip of a lot of unwholesome habits on my part because the whole 'centre' of this behaviour has become more transparent and not so heavy any more. But it requires ongoing effort and devotion. It is very easy to wander off.

I am realising this spirituality business really is a practical skill. There are definite things you have to learn and you can only learn by doing. There really is such a facility as 'prajna' or wisdom, and it has a life of its own.

Anyway thanks for your comments and feedback they are appreciated.

@jeeprs,

Hi,

Can't disagree with what you say, but I am a bit different.

I want people to be candid about their views. I want to know what people are thinking. I want to hear and try to understand all the perspectives out there. It is the only way that I can hope to piece together the clues of what this is all about.

So, I don't filter. But this doesn't mean I always respond. However, what I always do do, is listen with curiosity. I want to know. Smile

Rich

@jeeprs,

jeeprs;81338 wrote:

I can't argue with common bigotry and don't see any point in trying. This is a very stereotyped depiction of eastern society and culture. There is much that can be learned from all of the high cultures in my view, including Indian and Chinese. If you think it is all backwards savagery, perhaps this says more about your own attitudes. Anyway that is definitely enough out of me on that topic, I am not going to engage in any further dialog with 'kennethamy'.

Don't like the message? Ignore the messenger. Well, that's an improvement. People used to kill the messenger. (By the way, where is the bigotry? And the "backward savagery". Naughty, naughty. Misrepresentation. I love Indian food! And I rather like some Chinese food).

---------- Post added 08-05-2009 at 04:08 AM ----------

richrf;81360 wrote:

Hi,

Can't disagree with what you say, but I am a bit different.

I want people to be candid about their views. I want to know what people are thinking. I want to hear and try to understand all the perspectives out there. It is the only way that I can hope to piece together the clues of what this is all about.

So, I don't filter. But this doesn't mean I always respond. However, what I always do do, is listen with curiosity. I want to know.

Rich

Everyone filters.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;81386 wrote:

Everyone filters.

Thanks for the info.

Rich

@richrf,

richrf;81401 wrote:

Thanks for the info.

Rich

See? You had filtered out that everyone filters. Welcome.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;81429 wrote:

See? You had filtered out that everyone filters. Welcome.

Nope. Just more insight on who you are and the nature of people. Observation is a great way to understand.

Rich

@richrf,

richrf;81431 wrote:

Nope. Just more insight on who you are and the nature of people. Observation is a great way to understand.

Rich

But since you admit you filtered out that everyone filters, when you filtered, you could not have observed that you filtered. Now you know. And I was glad to inform you of that. Only, don't filter that out.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;81434 wrote:

But since you admit you filtered out that everyone filters, when you filtered, you could not have observed that you filtered. Now you know. And I was glad to inform you of that. Only, don't filter that out.

I have no idea what you are talking about since I said I try not to filter. But you are all over the place. Maybe too many filters. I don't know. But I do my best.

Rich

@richrf,

the closest i can relate to awakening and cosmic consciousness is an experience of ...... well sort of not being here at all. Like an expansion into what surrounds me. A landscape with 'nobody' watching. Things happen. Animals shift about. Cars go by..... but its like the driver is driving and the animals are doing what they do and either way its not me looking. I am at least partly not doing what I do, because this window has opened up.

Its a sort of wonder state that is fragile to what "I" am feeling. If the feelings are strong it blinks out and i come back..... and then it becomes like a memory of peace in another realm. This realm.

@pagan,

pagan;81617 wrote:

Its a sort of wonder state that is fragile to what "I" am feeling. If the feelings are strong it blinks out and i come back..... and then it becomes like a memory of peace in another realm. This realm.

Hi Pagan,

I consider everything I experience as equal and all part of my conscious experiences. I am not looking for any major awakening in my life. Just a gradual increase in awareness of things that I experience every day - both while I am awake and asleep.

Now and then I have a unique experience of one sort or another. I consider them some new and greater awareness that I am slowly acquiring. Just increments at a time.

I have friends that are seeking some major awakening. Some altogether now consciousness, but I am not sure it works that way. I think we go from A to Z by moving through each of the letters in the alphabet, in our own way and our own time. I think trying to jump from here to there but be quite difficult and possibly unhealthy. So for me, it is easy does it. And, yes, from time to time, I too have some very interesting new experiences.

Rich

@richrf,

richrf;81440 wrote:

I have no idea what you are talking about since I said I try not to filter. But you are all over the place. Maybe too many filters. I don't know. But I do my best.

Rich

Well, do try harder. Your best does not seem to be good enough.

@kennethamy,

Quote:

rich - So for me, it is easy does it. And, yes, from time to time, I too have some very interesting new experiences.

hmmmm..... the gradual or the sudden path? Which one should we choose? Smile

@pagan,

pagan;81731 wrote:

hmmmm..... the gradual or the sudden path? Which one should we choose?

Hi pagan,

I think each path is valid. But I have known people who tried to breakthrough, got very frustrated, and eventually fell into ill health by trying too hard. So sudden paths are like jumping out of a plane or climbing steep mountains - it is a risk, and other than the excitement, I am not sure why to do it. I have enough excitement in my life as it is. I don't need to go looking for it. Smile

Rich

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