Are videogames art?

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Fido
 
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 08:59 pm
@hammersklavier,
hammersklavier;83673 wrote:
I think a thought I thunk.

Okay, so the jist of Aristotle's argument in the Poetics is that there is a right way and a wrong way to write a play, right? And that since this is so, playwriting is a masterable discipline and therefore a craft, right? And by the Platonic definition of the term craftwork is the highest art, right? So it strikes me that the same is true when dealing with video games...if there's a right way and a wrong way to make a video game, and the difference between these two ways is apparent in the final product, then the techniques involved in video-game writing are something of a craft and therefore a type of art, which makes their product an artwork (albeit in much the same way that horseshoes are works of art). But wait, there's more! In the Platonic scheme of things, art is that which is beautiful and useful: in his Poetics Aristotle was dedicated to showing that catharsis is a useful emotive means to calm and discipline the viewer: that is, that catharsis allows us to substitute the highly unreal characters of a play (or in this case, a videogame) for the very real characters of the real world when we need to vent, more or less. That catharsis is a sort of bracing feeling. ...This is a use, Aristotle tells us, and therefore, aha, plays are both beautiful and useful and therefore a quite legit work of art. And since the arguments Aristotle applied to plays, which in his day were a quite novel art form look like they can be equally well applied to videogames, one wonders if there's any reason not to think that videogames are art.

Aristotle makes a statement in Poetics that cannot be defended, -that the line between vice and virtue is one that divides all of mankind...In Drama as art, The objects of tragedy are larger than life, and it is to help us to care for them when they meet their end... The problem of Video games is that they are at best a comedy, and since we cannot win, but must always lose and die, we are left caring less for ourselves... Look at our most common form of comedy: the police story... It does not matter how often the end of the criminal is shown, or from how many angles...It does not give people relief... They cannot forgive the other, so they cannot forgive themselves, and are left unimproved by the experience... People think they will feel better, but they always feel worse... How much better are people made by video games???Since they do as intended, they are art...They will never be high art...They lead people into an imaginary world...It is the same world we are all trying to escape, all the time... War, violence, hate, infidelity... That is our world, so subject makes it art...When will we survive in it and how???
 
Belial phil
 
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 09:42 pm
@Ultracrepidarian,
Ultracrepidarian;63735 wrote:
Puzzles are art? Who says? Puzzle games like Tetris may be games of skill, but that is not art. Tetris consists of puzzle pieces moving across the screen and it is up to the player to supply whatever skill he has to maniupulate them efficiently. He may even play a beautiful game of Tetris which may be admired. If he stretches before the game, I may even call it a sport. On the other hand, the script of Final Fantasy alone could be read apart from the game and would amount to many pages. There is a lot of dialogue, plot, and theme. Final Fantasy demands skill too, but as much as Tetris? I don't think so. RPGs and puzzle games are different animals just like art and sport.



A definition of art from the Merriam-Webster dictionary:
4 a : the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also : works so produced b (1) : fine arts

Someone consciously used skill and creativity to create Tetris, Tetris is therefore art.
 
Fido
 
Reply Wed 9 Sep, 2009 10:36 pm
@Belial phil,
Belial;89313 wrote:
A definition of art from the Merriam-Webster dictionary:
4 a : the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also : works so produced b (1) : fine arts

Someone consciously used skill and creativity to create Tetris, Tetris is therefore art.

All that people do which contributes to our survival is art... But is art good??? Not one thing can we do that does not reflect us, but do we shine a good light upon us???. Art is subject and humanity is the end of it.... We do not just create, but recreate ourselves... We are the subject and the object of our arts... Is it then too much to ask that we be caught in the bloom of youth and promise and hope???Done right, art always improves upon reality just as tragedy makes mankind more human rather than less so...So the question should not be whether it is art, but upon the quality of our productions as art...
 
Sorryel
 
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 11:00 am
@ejones4uoregon,
ejones4@uoregon;67016 wrote:
I am wondering why this discussion is so popular? This is by no means an attack on those who have responded here, but a question as to why "this" topic continues to be discussed? Do those who get pleasure in video games, or are inspired to contemplation by them, wish to make games "art" because they feel guilty for their enjoyment? So that they might spare their "intellectualist" reputation from those who will immediately judge them fools for such a "worthless" interest? If they are pleasurable to you, they are meaningful. But why ask "art"? Those who do not enjoy them, or are not impressed by them, will shoot this move down to assert their own "higher taste".


I love this discussion. It combines at least two of my favorite pastimes: computer games (a very artistic subset of video games) and art (a wonderfully ill-defined set of highly variable areas of cultural significance).

The culture machinery has not really caught up with computer games yet. You can tell that's true because most people seem to place a vaguely negative value on them.

On the other hand, for most of art, the cultural machinery has worked it over and left most of it to drift off into obscurity. You can tell that's true because most of art seems to exist under headings such as "Classical Art" that tell the average cultural denizen: you already know what that is -- don't actually spend any time looking at it.

In the cultural penumbra of computer games you can still come across cultural evaluations that are still forming and are not solidified...or that may forever remain non-cultural. For example if you go and look up different actual performance models for battleship gunnery control in WWI with reference to a game, you can find a project that is building simulations of WWI gunnery control systems and thereby bringing into question all the supposed wisdom about how these gunnery systems actually worked. Note that these simulations include actual working computer models of the physical control system such as plotting tables and repeaters (input of vectors from various devices around a ship).
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Thu 26 Nov, 2009 01:14 am
@hammersklavier,
Yes. Yes. Yes.

Not only video games but ALL games are works of Art, if one considers them as such.

I have both programmed my own video games and created various strategy / role playing games that do not involve computers. I view game-design as a sublime though unappreciated sort of art.

It's sort of like playing God. You invent the "world" and the rules of the world. Your player's provide the will, the intelligence, the individual style.

Thanks,
S.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Sun 14 Feb, 2010 06:59 pm
@Theaetetus,
hammersklavier;44742 wrote:
Or is art by committee, any sort of committee, not art at all?

I open the floor.
Computer games are no different from anything else which are created for amusement, some are just sloppy trash, other are made with soul and love which I consider from time to time great art, on line with ancient greek sculptures.

Kierkegaard;46280 wrote:
Playing the video-game would not be considered an art. Creating it however might be.
"It is self-evident that nothing concerning art is self-evident."
Then you havn't seen professionels play. It's no different than ballet, the display of excersizing extremely difficult maneuvers, and tactics are subject for mass entertainment alongside professionel sport. Even dedicated TV channels are made to display this new kind of 'e-sports'

Please stop making purely theorized statements, and study the subject.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Sun 14 Feb, 2010 07:02 pm
@HexHammer,
QAre videogames art?
AYes, there is good art there is bad art.
 
Marat phil
 
Reply Tue 23 Mar, 2010 06:07 am
@hammersklavier,
Ingenious video games:

Stronghold
Fallout (1-2)
TES III Morrowind

Admit that you simply do
not wish to waste time on it.
 
JPhil
 
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 09:36 am
@Kierkegaard,
Kierkegaard;46280 wrote:
Playing the video-game would not be considered an art. Creating it however might be.
"It is self-evident that nothing concerning art is self-evident."

What does even mean?
 
GoshisDead
 
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 03:11 pm
@Kierkegaard,
Kierkegaard;46280 wrote:
Playing the video-game would not be considered an art. Creating it however might be.
"It is self-evident that nothing concerning art is self-evident."


In the sense of the virtuoso, video gaming can be an art form, much the same as appreciating the way Michael Jordan played ball, or Yo Yo Ma plays cello. Virtuosos don't necessarily create a lasting record of their art, they perform their art in the media in which they are inspired.

Although I detest this game and and what it stands for, this is none the less impressive and could by many be considered awe inspiring art.

YouTube - Through the Fire and Flames
 
PappasNick
 
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 06:11 pm
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead;143201 wrote:
In the sense of the virtuoso, video gaming can be an art form, much the same as appreciating the way Michael Jordan played ball, or Yo Yo Ma plays cello. Virtuosos don't necessarily create a lasting record of their art, they perform their art in the media in which they are inspired.

Although I detest this game and and what it stands for, this is none the less impressive and could by many be considered awe inspiring art.


I concur about virtuosity.

What does the game you linked us to stand for?
 
GoshisDead
 
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 09:11 pm
@PappasNick,
Its guitar hero, and i was being dramatic, I just have issues with the people addicted to it who don't bother to spend all the time they use to perfect it when they could just learn guitar.
 
PappasNick
 
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2010 12:43 pm
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead;143362 wrote:
Its guitar hero, and i was being dramatic, I just have issues with the people addicted to it who don't bother to spend all the time they use to perfect it when they could just learn guitar.


That's the irony, isn't it? They could learn to play a real guitar in all the time they take to learn virtual guitar.

I suppose it's like that with other virtual things, too.

I remember the first time I was asked to play SimCity. It felt like work!
 
Keamari
 
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2010 06:58 pm
@Theaetetus,
I'd definitely say that they are, or at least have the possibility to be.
Are statues art? Yes. Can buildings be art? I'd say so.
Can a computer designed model, the same as the statue but made using a computer, be art? I'd say that it can. So why can't a computer designed building (a location in a video game) be art?
This doesn't make any arguments for the gameplay, but the settings at least can definitely be art, and I see no reason why a storyline couldn't be.
 
sjk
 
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 10:20 am
@hammersklavier,
I wouldn't say it is as the emotions that the gamer would feel would be based on their own response to direct stimuli (such as sounds, colours, etc..) Good art however, should attempt to represent the artist's feelings by direct and precise transmission. Video games however, create emotions that are entirely dependent on the person within that given situation as if they were there themselves (well...not quite).
 
GoshisDead
 
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 10:29 am
@sjk,
SJK:

Good traditionally has done no such thing. Art is a business and has been for a very long time. A great many of the classical pieces we consider high art were commissioned pieces designed expressly for the patron to his/her exacting specifications. What feeling really is the artist trying to portray other than if I don't give them what they want, I don't get paid. Walking through the National Portrait gallery in D.C. one marvels at technique and the way the artist captures the emotion of the person in the portrait not at the way the artist expresses his/her own feelings in the portrait. Expressionism as a popularized art form is fairly recent. Although I do agree that the artists emotions are capture in any art, to a degree, I do not feel, however, that the artists emotions are paramount to a piece being "Good Art". The talent I think is the artist's ability to evoke emotion out of the consumer, which video games do very well.
 
sjk
 
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 10:44 am
@hammersklavier,
I would argue that commissioned art does not express emotion at all, but rather displays a basic image of how that person wishes to be seen, in terms of status etc. It is because this lacks sincerity of emotion that I don't believe it to be good art. If indeed the artist was able to fully understand and portray the emotion of their patron in the painting however, because the artist has experienced this emotion in order to convey it, then the transmission of the artist's feeling is still felt. Finally, because nature can evoke different emotions depending on the person, does this mean that there needs to be an artist to have created it? If however, the artist is just representing what is in nature in order to achieve the same effect, then I believe this is not good art, but merely replicating what has been gained in nature in order to achieve something of a similar effect.
 
Marat phil
 
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 11:11 am
@hammersklavier,
Videogames - art of postmodern. If the spectator = artist = personage - that this art of postmodern. Its philosophical fact. Good game gives glory emotions. Emotions of the player are projected on the game hero.
 
sjk
 
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 11:20 am
@hammersklavier,
If the player was, as it were, living through the eyes of the game's hero, then it would be as if the individual was placed in that situation themselves, hence they are only experiencing their own emotions. This would not be as much art any more than paintball is, for both rely on the person's own feelings, not ones that are transmitted to them.
 
GoshisDead
 
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 11:42 am
@sjk,
The David, the Sistine Chappel, The last Supper (Da Vinci), La Velata All commissioned.
 
 

 
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