Time and space can never end. It is infinite.

@invulnerable23,

no your just telling me how you measure it or how you relate to it not what it is...

@invulnerable23,

invulnerable23 wrote:

Khethil, we just keep running into one another, don't we?

Sure do, is this a great place or what!?

invulnerable23 wrote:

Of course, the idea that follows is that if man ceases to exist, time does as well, in a manner of speaking. If other physical objects existed and moved and changed, that is only movement and change, not time.

Yea, exactly. It seems rather straightforward to me; but I'm often wrong. The way I look at time is the say way I look at beauty in that: If no one were around to call X beautiful, does that mean beauty disappears if we all were to disappear?

Good stuff, nice discussion. Thanks

@xris,

xris wrote:

no your just telling me how you measure it or how you relate to it not what it is...

I am saying that relation in the mind is all it is.

If you have a better answer, by all means, share it. :a-ok:

@invulnerable23,

invulnerable23 wrote:

I am saying that relation in the mind is all it is.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Time is a measurement. Without matter how do you tell yesterday from today? We need to make constant comparisons on matter to measure time.

Think about why we have 24 hours in a day. Why do we have 365 days in a year. Why is "time" different depending where you are in the universe?

@invulnerable23,

I can only agree with the accepted view of time...we can only value or see time when we have something happening it does not require a human to observe this occurrence, just the record of this occurrence..how we relate to time is something totally different...time is for this universe and as we are creatures of this universe we abide by its rules..

@astrotheological,

Xris, I just want to expand on your ideas. Are you saying, then, that time exists in the universe regardless of creatures observing it? Would you also say that (assuming that this is so) time existed before matter existed?

If so, then how is it that time can be relative? How can it slow down or speed up depending on gravity and velocity?

[This part is off subject. I just have to ask. Is your name pronounced "Chris" like the Greek letter at the front? If so, that's clever.]

@invulnerable23,

I can only relate what cosmologist tell us that time started with the Big bang...before there was nothing even the word nothing is not an adequate word to use to observe no time...I think we are hampered in understanding time by our short span of existance. If we lived for thousands of years we could see time flowing subjectively so much slower ...Its like ants dashing about with so little time..The relation with space and time is on occassions something i have to accept by greater minds than mine... What interests me is what was there that caused the BB or did it to come from nothing, its where religion can claim creation was initiated .There is a new example of the shape of the BB it looks like a large hunting horn shape of expansion..the univese looks like it started with a blast from a huge horn, looking at the shape you can almost hear the long low clear tone..yes my name is chris clever of you to spot it.

@xris,

xris wrote:

I can only relate what cosmologist tell us that time started with the Big bang...before there was nothing even the word nothing is not an adequate word to use to observe no time...I think we are hampered in understanding time by our short span of existance. If we lived for thousands of years we could see time flowing subjectively so much slower ...Its like ants dashing about with so little time..The relation with space and time is on occassions something i have to accept by greater minds than mine... What interests me is what was there that caused the BB or did it to come from nothing, its where religion can claim creation was initiated .There is a new example of the shape of the BB it looks like a large hunting horn shape of expansion..the univese looks like it started with a blast from a huge horn, looking at the shape you can almost hear the long low clear tone..yes my name is chris clever of you to spot it.

Interesting. The horn idea is new to me, I haven't heard that before. It certainly does put a spin on the big bang, doesn't it?

While I don't believe in the Big Bang, I will use the idea to further my idea of time. The subjectivity of time is absolutely what I am holding to as well. Relatively speaking, you need objects to move to keep track of time. Without movement and change, where is time? The reasons for this, I would say, is that time is in the mind. It's entirely subjective. Without a timekeeping movement, and no movement elsewhere, where is time? If someone is unable to move, and all things in the universe are unable to move (assuming that thought and perception is also frozen, since no synapses can fire without movement) then time stands still for that person.

@invulnerable23,

Time for the individual is of no consequence to the objectivity of our understanding of time...so why do you not believe in the Bigbang as the only known event that created this universe, how do you disagree with known cosmology?

@invulnerable23,

invulnerable23 wrote:

Let us assume it is possible for the physical world to cease existing. Will time continue, after all matter is gone?

If time is something contingent upon the physical world, then it has also ceased, because there is nothing to relate to for time to exist. If time is separate from matter, then time will continue despite this end to the physical world, but what is it that time will effect and change? Without anything to exert it's force over, how can you know that time exists at all, after the physical world ceases to exist?

Why would time stop. What would make it stop. It can never just stop or pause.

@astrotheological,

I hold to the idea that time is a concept in our minds. Without the humans who hold the concept, there is no time.

Consider the fact that time as something the universe is contingent upon is unable to be found. The so-called effects of time are existence, change, and movement. But if you consider the reason that you can't find that idea of time is perhaps because it doesn't exist apart from the mind. That movement, change, and existence are reality, and time is a way to organize it.

Can time exist apart from matter? I think not.

As for the big bang, that is an entirely different subject. Wink

@invulnerable23,

So your saying before man appeared time did not exist? how strange a concept so how did the dinosaurs exist without time?

@xris,

I don't get it how one can say "time does or does not exist" and even "existed" ... using past tense Laughing

If an intelligent being observes a bridge, it will measure its length.
If an intelligent being observes a collapsing bridge, it will measure the time it took the bridge to modify itself from being a bridge to not being a bridge.

If there is no intelligent being, will the bridge stop having a length ? Or will it collapse instantly ?

Time or distance are used to measure stuff. They don't "exist". Does temperature exist ? When you put your hand in fire do you feel temperature ? Or do you feel heat ?

"Time can never end".. Hah. "Never" means "at no time" so what you're saying is `time at no time can end`. The concept of "time" doesn't support the notion of end or beginning, just as dimensions of empty space.
If you point to the sky you will be able to move in that direction meter after meter, yard after yard, (assuming you can pass through anything) without reaching an end. End ? Finish ? What does it mean ? No more empty space ? Laughing

@xris,

xris wrote:

So your saying before man appeared time did not exist? how strange a concept so how did the dinosaurs exist without time?

I don't think dinosaurs think using temporal language. As for their existence, they exist and they move, that doesn't mean our concept of time is applicable to them if we aren't around.

Quote:

If there is no intelligent being, will the bridge stop having a length ? Or will it collapse instantly ?

The length is described by humanity. Length also doesn't exist apart from organization applied to things by humans. Does an animal understand things in terms of length, width, or depth? I doubt the length of the bridge is what's holding the bridge up, and causing it to remain in tact.

Quote:

If an intelligent being observes a collapsing bridge, it will measure the time it took the bridge to modify itself from being a bridge to not being a bridge.

In so much as the being applies some relative outside movement to the movement of the bridge, to collaborate the movement and allow people to understand something they call "time". Thus, "the bridge took one hour to collapse," means that "the movement of the bridge was one-24th the movement of the sun in the sky" (granted, the earth spins, but the ancients had no idea of it, and the sun isn't in the sky for more or less half the time. Also, I have never seen a bridge collapse for an hour, but a measure of time was useful here).

Quote:

Time or distance are used to measure stuff. They don't "exist". Does temperature exist ? When you put your hand in fire do you feel temperature ? Or do you feel heat ?

Indeed. Conceptions applied to our experiences, and passed on through generations.

Quote:

"Time can never end".. Hah. "Never" means "at no time" so what you're saying is `time at no time can end`. The concept of "time" doesn't support the notion of end or beginning, just as dimensions of empty space.
If you point to the sky you will be able to move in that direction meter after meter, yard after yard, (assuming you can pass through anything) without reaching an end. End ? Finish ? What does it mean ? No more empty space ?

I liked this part. :a-ok:

@invulnerable23,

Our concept of time and there term on this planet is the same we can measure the time they existed so time existed before us...

@xris,

xris wrote:

Our concept of time and there term on this planet is the same we can measure the time they existed so time existed before us...

Notice you said "we can measure." You are right, we can measure it. That's exactly because time is only to organize things, so that's why you still need us to measure it.

@invulnerable23,

invulnerable23 wrote:

Notice you said "we can measure." You are right, we can measure it. That's exactly because time is only to organize things, so that's why you still need us to measure it.

so how does that make time non existent before humans existed...

@MITech,

MITech wrote:

Time always exists.

If, for example, at 09:00 one day everything that is in motion stopped. Then after an unknown period, started again. How would you determine how long everything was not in motion? Does it even hold meaning to ask, how long does nothing happen?

@validity,

Thats Ok if you can explain how time stopped but if you cant its not relevant...when you blinked a monkey jumped up smiled and then disappeared....

@xris,

Validity makes a valid point. (heh.)

Quote:

Thats Ok if you can explain how time stopped but if you cant its not relevant...when you blinked a monkey jumped up smiled and then disappeared....

It doesn't matter. For the sake of the discussion, assume it is possible. You still haven't addressed the issue of how to track "time" in that instance.

It would turn into the old English measurement for "foot", where it was as long as the king's foot. It varies from person to person.

Honestly, no one would know how long time has passed. That is simply because time is in the mind. You organize factors by it, and set up ideas of it being a dimension, when it doesn't really exist apart from your mind.

When we argue about movement and existence resulting from time or time resulting from organizing movement, we start to develop a "chicken or the egg" argument. That doesn't change the fact that the idea of a conceptual time holds some water.

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