Pretense or LIES!

@mister kitten,

mister kitten;120042 wrote:

What is a lie?
What is pretense?

Are they identical?

If not: Why? What separates a lie from something make-believe?
If so: Why? Should I start calling all fiction writers liars? What makes them the same?

they're not identical, one's disregard of reality and one is complete fiction.

a blonde bought quantum physics, she carried herself well, i was amazed by this, and assumed she was smart.

i know a blonde and she bought a book on quantum physics and she's smart. Now in the 2nd example you could've withheld information that she bought the book for her brother.

now, it's completely arrogant to assume all blondes are dumb, but it's a perfect stereotype for this situation.

ironic to stereotype in a philosophy forum.

@BaaBaa phil,

BaaBaa;120052 wrote:

they're not identical, one's disregard of reality and one is complete fiction.

a blonde bought quantum physics, she carried herself well, i was amazed by this, and assumed she was smart.

i know a blonde and she bought a book on quantum physics and she's smart. Now in the 2nd example you could've withheld information that she bought the book for her brother.

now, it's completely arrogant to assume all blondes are dumb, but it's a perfect stereotype for this situation.

ironic to stereotype in a philosophy forum.

Okay. One does this and the other does that. Please be more specific.

Example2: If one withholds information, then s/he is a liar?

@mister kitten,

obviously, lol.

pretense is a personal belief; a belief that ignores reality.

absolutely believing (it's a product of stupidity).

both have absolutely different meanings.

pretense: requires only one individual.
Lie:requires two; also which interests me, a lie can produce a pretense, lol; which just fascinates me on how the mind works(a person can lie to another and create a pretense for the person's perspective of the liar,
this is all true because the person who's receiving the lie believes it).Haha

the word pretense is only in existence because of perception.
otherwise it would remain in a single individual.

@BaaBaa phil,

BaaBaa;120057 wrote:

obviously, lol.

pretense is a personal belief; a belief that ignores reality.

absolutely believing (it's a product of stupidity).

both have absolutely different meanings.

pretense: requires only one individual.
Lie:requires two.

the word pretense is only in existence because of perception.
otherwise it would remain in a single individual.

If one believes in reality, then one must think reality is true.
If one thinks reality is true, then anything contradicting reality is false.
Lying is false. Since, as you say, "pretense ignores reality," therefore pretense is the same as lying.

"pretense: requires only one individual." Have you read The Crucible?
"Lie:requires two." I don't agree, but I can't think of an example right now and I gotta sleep (midterms tomorrow, woohoo! That is not sarcasm)

@mister kitten,

mister kitten;120060 wrote:

If one believes in reality, then one must think reality is true.
If one thinks reality is true, then anything contradicting reality is false.
Lying is false. Since, as you say, "pretense ignores reality," therefore pretense is the same as lying.

"pretense: requires only one individual." Have you read The Crucible?
"Lie:requires two." I don't agree, but I can't think of an example right now and I gotta sleep (midterms tomorrow, woohoo! That is not sarcasm)

you're thinking way too much of the actual meaning, consider the literal meaning (which is more defined, and when used properly can understand these definitions).
lie = an expression of deceit ( the person having knowledge of deceit)
pretense = no knowledge and created by assumptions ( an assumption created by ignoring reality and also created by belief)

ergo, pretense is a belief and a lie an expression.

any who contradicts reality is obviously absurd, lol.
a lie is false from the opposing perspective, but not from the individual itself.
a pretense is created by one individual; perspective is the only thing that combines these two words.

a side note: perception is truth and perspective is false. (*had perception before, a mistake *)
lie= perception ( you need another person to perceive it, which just negates the element definition of the word)
pretense=truth

but this discussion is really stuck on the negative meaning of the word, saying that anything that's under pretense is false.
pretense is created by coincidence(memories of relativity).

i'm sure you have an outlook on these words, and you're contrasting your outlook against mine, that's okay, i love to discuss:a-ok:

@BaaBaa phil,

BaaBaa;120062 wrote:

you're thinking way too much of the actual meaning, consider the literal meaning (which is more defined, and when used properly can understand these definitions).
lie = an expression of deceit ( the person having knowledge of deceit)
pretense = no knowledge and created by assumptions ( an assumption created by ignoring reality and also created by belief)

ergo, pretense is a belief and a lie an expression.

Oh, but what if you're lying to me?
I agree with you, I just wanted to try to defend the other side.

@mister kitten,

mister kitten;120042 wrote:

What is a lie?
What is pretense?

Are they identical?

If not: Why? What separates a lie from something make-believe?
If so: Why? Should I start calling all fiction writers liars? What makes them the same?

Children who pretend are not lying. A person who lies intends to deceive. Unless the pretense in an intention to deceive, it is not lying. So, some pretense is lying, but some lying is not pretense.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;120094 wrote:

Children who pretend are not lying. A person who lies intends to deceive. Unless the pretense in an intention to deceive, it is not lying. So, some pretense is lying, but some lying is not pretense.

The same conclusion I came to.

@mister kitten,

[QUOTE=mister kitten;120056]Example2: If one withholds information, then s/he is a liar?[/quote]
A lie is the utterance of a falsehood with the intent to deceive, but withholding information isn't the utterance of a falsehood, so one that withholds information is not necessarily a liar--though I'm sure some would beg to differ, in cases where withholding information is the wrong thing to do.

However, just because withholding information is not a lie, that's not to say there aren't many circumstances where withholding information is wrong.

In fact, I would surmise that the confusion between A) lying (which is often wrong) and B) the cases where withholding information is wrong, explains why the concept of "lying by omission" was born. People misapply the term "lie" to cover more than what it covers.

Interestingly enough, if I'm correct about what I say a lie is, then it would be a mistake to say that a lie by omission is a kind of lie, as the name would seem to suggest.

@mister kitten,

fast wrote:

A lie is the utterance of a falsehood with the intent to deceive, but withholding information isn't the utterance of a falsehood, so one that withholds information is not necessarily a liar--though I'm sure some would beg to differ, in cases where withholding information is the wrong thing to do.

What is telling a truth but with the intention to deceive called?

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;120343 wrote:

What is telling a truth but with the intention to deceive called?

Bad luck...............

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;120343 wrote:

What is telling a truth but with the intention to deceive called?

Deceitful truth? Could you explain?

@mister kitten,

mister kitten;120355 wrote:

Deceitful truth? Could you explain?

A man tells another there is oil under a certain parcel of land. but believes there is no oil. He sells the land, and it turns out that there is, in fact, oil under that land.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;120364 wrote:

A man tells another there is oil under a certain parcel of land. but believes there is no oil. He sells the land, and it turns out that there is, in fact, oil under that land.

Coincidence?
The man selling the land was lying, not telling the truth.

@mister kitten,

mister kitten;120464 wrote:

Coincidence?
The man selling the land was lying, not telling the truth.

No. He was telling the truth, but he did not realize it. He was telling the truth, but he was not being truthful. Too bad for him.

@mister kitten,

The man did not know there was oil in the ground. His intent was to lie. There just happened to be oil in the ground.

@mister kitten,

mister kitten;120527 wrote:

The man did not know there was oil in the ground. His intent was to lie. There just happened to be oil in the ground.

No, he believe there was no oil. So, he intended to deceive. Only, he was unlucky and failed to deceive. He told the truth. He was not truthful.

@Zetherin,

[QUOTE=Zetherin;120343]What is telling a truth but with the intention to deceive called?[/QUOTE]
Misleading.

She told me not to eat lunch, but I ate lunch anyway. She asked me what I ate, and I told her that I had breakfast, and it's true; I did have breakfast. She asked if I had anything else, and I said "yes, I had a bag of chips for a snack," and that too is true. But, what she still doesn't know is that I had lunch.

See, I never lied (never uttered a falsehood with the intent to deceive), but not only did I deceive, I intended to do so, and I did so while telling only the truth--though whether or not I was truthful is another matter entirely, especially since I told only select truths to hide the fact that I had lunch.

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