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Alot of people think that we do not need religon. Many say that we only believe in god because we want to think there is a heaven.:nonooo: They think it is stupid to do this. But for me, wanting there to be a heaven is only a part of why i go to church. Many things that come from church really help you in life, be there a god or not. I can not find one thing in my religon that does not help you in life. Even praying helps you:whoa-dude:! Even if there is no god (im pretty sure there is) it helps to believe in him. Alot of atheist will say "You can still live those principles without beliving in god". This is not true:nonooo:. The fact that if you sin without going through the repentance process you go to HELL!:devilish:keeps you from sinning. If there is nothing like that you will just say "oops. ill try not do that again." but you most likley will do it again. If you think you can disprove this tell me.

I like this icon :poke-eye:. poke poke poke:lol:

@awoelt,

Hi Awoelt,

It's quite easy to "disprove" (in inverted commas, since we're not really talking about "proofs" here, but about arguments): acting morally out of fear is not necessarily moral. If this is the only reason preventing you from doing what is morally wrong, then you are not being moral, you're just trying to save yourself (not a bad thing in itself, but completely unconnected to morality).

However, the issue is, of course, far wider and deeper, so I would settle for pointing out - for fairness' sake - that many theistic views disagree with fear being the only incentive to act morally. In any case, the thought that atheists are any less moral than theists is, of course, quite ridiculous; and some thinkers claim for the opposite: since atheistic values need to be adopted autonomically, with no reliance on any given authority, they may be seen as more authentic, thus - more precious to the person holding them.

@adva,

Oops!
I just now noticed that this is a forum for REALLY young philosophers, not "academically young" or something like that...
Couldn't find how to delete my message, but of course, this explains why you are not familiar with the very wide debate on the subject (and also the large number of smilies... ;-) )

Anyway, you phrased your question very nicely and neatly! Good luck and enjoy exploring it! :-)

@awoelt,

awoelt wrote:

Alot of people think that we do not need religon. Many say that we only believe in god because we want to think there is a heaven.:nonooo: They think it is stupid to do this. But for me, wanting there to be a heaven is only a part of why i go to church. Many things that come from church really help you in life, be there a god or not. I can not find one thing in my religon that does not help you in life. Even praying helps you:whoa-dude:! Even if there is no god (im pretty sure there is) it helps to believe in him. Alot of atheist will say "You can still live those principles without beliving in god". This is not true:nonooo:. The fact that if you sin without going through the repentance process you go to HELL!:devilish:keeps you from sinning. If there is nothing like that you will just say "oops. ill try not do that again." but you most likley will do it again. If you think you can disprove this tell me.

I like this icon :poke-eye:. poke poke poke:lol:

First of atheists are like religious people if it comes to having different believe systems. I'm an atheist but can't stand a lot of atheists due to their almost autistic view on things. Just like Christianity, Islam, Hindu atheist believe in different things and take other roads. It's not as if we are the Orc's from lord of the rings trying to destroy religion.

The moral argument does not work; The fact that I'm an atheist does not make me want to murder anybody. The odds are even here on both sides. Fundamentalist religious people or atheists make the same mess everywhere. The fact that I don't believe in God does not mean i think murder, rape and adultery are great things to pass time. Besides the idea that these things are wrong does not stem from religion.

The church provides you a framework which you can hold on to, IF you are ready to accept everything else that comes with it. If your fine with that it's great and I wish you the best. But it does not work for me or other people, so we cling to other frameworks or develop our own.

Your "Atheist are stupid! If you are good you go to heaven, if you are bad you go to hell" argument brings some unwanted visitors. You now clearly state that you have to believe in God or otherwise you go to hell. It sounds like God is an angry old conservative man, and pressures you into believing in him. You talk about your religion as if it is an insurance policy, and sadly enough I witnessed tons of people talking about it this way.

There is no reason why atheist and religious people need to fight all the time. Despite other ways of going through life we are all the same. I'm not asking you to denounce your faith when I ask you to look clearly at what your religion entails and how many arguments fail if looked upon from different angels. But am merely trying to get you to think critical and see the errors in your reasoning.

@Vasska,

You seem to say that there can be no regret without a belief that somewhere there is a God judging you for what you do, which is not true. Humans experience guilt in all that we perceive to be wrong, and religion or no if we perceive something as right then we will do it. It seems to me that God would be a cruel being to send someone to the fires of eternal torment for those little niggly things in life, such as finding a penny in the street, so we can assume that only actions severe enough to cause regretful guilt can send us to hell. Guilt definitely hangs over peoples heads until they have righted it themselves, so this can replace the 'repentance process' you refer to. Besides, if God truly loved all his creations, and gave them an existence with no definite knowledge of his existence, if the time of judgement did come then wouldn't he forgive them? Which testament is the right one?

@Vasska,

Vasska wrote:

Your "Atheist are stupid! If you are good you go to heaven, if you are bad you go to hell" argument brings some unwanted visitors. You now clearly state that you have to believe in God or otherwise you go to hell. It sounds like God is an angry old conservative man, and pressures you into believing in him. You talk about your religion as if it is an insurance policy, and sadly enough I witnessed tons of people talking about it this way.

-I would love to discuss your thoughts here if you would be open.

Vasska wrote:

There is no reason why atheist and religious people need to fight all the time. Despite other ways of going through life we are all the same. I'm not asking you to denounce your faith when I ask you to look clearly at what your religion entails and how many arguments fail if looked upon from different angels. But am merely trying to get you to think critical and see the errors in your reasoning.

I would agree with your point, that many good arguments can be reduced to rubble if looked at from a certain/different angle. But we can not simply conclude from this fact alone, that the idea/argument in question, is therefore "wrong."

'different angles' can be wrong in themselves, and thus not valid counter-arguments.

@Insight phil,

Insight wrote:

'different angles' can be wrong in themselves, and thus not valid counter-arguments.

Surely it's assumed that when he says 'looked at from different angles' he means 'looked at from different angles that are logically sound'?

And I somehow fail to see your idea that if an argument is disproved it's not wrong, can you explain that please?

@Kolbe,

Kolbe wrote:

Surely it's assumed that when he says 'looked at from different angles' he means 'looked at from different angles that are logically sound'?

And I somehow fail to see your idea that if an argument is disproved it's not wrong, can you explain that please?

I am having a difficult time coming up with a solid concrete example that is not silly.. im working on it though.

Great response though. ty Kolbe. =]

@Kolbe,

Kolbe wrote:

You seem to say that there can be no regret without a belief that somewhere there is a God judging you for what you do, which is not true. Humans experience guilt in all that we perceive to be wrong, and religion or no if we perceive something as right then we will do it. It seems to me that God would be a cruel being to send someone to the fires of eternal torment for those little niggly things in life, such as finding a penny in the street, so we can assume that only actions severe enough to cause regretful guilt can send us to hell. Guilt definitely hangs over peoples heads until they have righted it themselves, so this can replace the 'repentance process' you refer to. Besides, if God truly loved all his creations, and gave them an existence with no definite knowledge of his existence, if the time of judgement did come then wouldn't he forgive them? Which testament is the right one?

Would you consider yourself to be an Absolutist Kolbe?
-great post btw

@Insight phil,

Kolbe is Kolbe, I'm not sure if I have any other way of describing myself.

@Kolbe,

Kolbe wrote:

Kolbe is Kolbe, I'm not sure if I have any other way of describing myself.

fair enough.. Do you mind me asking what religion you believe in?

@Insight phil,

I was brought up Catholic and did once believe in God, but now I think I can be called agnostic. A philosopher once referred to the void where we place God as 'the unknown' and I seem to find that the best doctrine. I'm guessing you're Christian then?

@Kolbe,

Well I find it sad that you no longer believe in God. And refferring to God as 'the unknown' seems weak..
What if scientists simply stated that the study of chemistry was to complicated and left it as 'the unknown.' lol. that to me just seems *****. You should be actively searching for the answers that you do not have. I am surprised that you wouldn't want this already.

And yes, I am a Catholic. =D
also I play WoW too. lolll

@Insight phil,

You should indeed search for answers that you don't have, but not for answers that you can't have. The philosopher, who I know remember was Kierkegaard, said that you 'do not reason to existence, but from existence. I do not, for example, prove that a stone exists, but that something that exists is a stone'. Chemistry is a study into something we know exists, and we have many questions upon the topic of which are all answerable in due course, but on the topic of God there is a seperation between the physical and spiritual that answers can't seem to cross. Therefore, as an answer can never really be achieved, I don't think the use of the term 'unknown' is weak at all. It's merely the philosophical equivalent of dividing by zero, or the square root of -1. Also, as a Catholic, can you please explain to me the concept of original sin, in all my years I've never been able to wrap my head around it.

And you do? Sweet, what class?<Druid healbot

@awoelt,

If this deep-rooted conviction is ultimately that if you acquaint yourself with God,you will go to Heaven,whereas you veto,you would go to Hell,it would have this deplorable feeling of ambivalence.Whether to go to Hell or Heaven,an agnostic perceives,and this would engenders him/her to forswear being embroiled in religion.

Nonetheless,it is literally uphill to have people repenting to God.

@awoelt,

awoelt wrote:

Alot of atheist will say "You can still live those principles without beliving in god". This is not true:nonooo:. The fact that if you sin without going through the repentance process you go to HELL!:devilish:keeps you from sinning. If there is nothing like that you will just say "oops. ill try not do that again." but you most likley will do it again. If you think you can disprove this tell me.

To be honest, I was quite offended by this statement. Because, althought I regard myself as an Atheist, I definitely make an effort to be a good person; to try and keep people happy and not make them miserable. I see this aim as something that generally, in the long run, would benefit human kind. If there were enough people with the same aim, that is.

I admire your enthusiasm for practises that can make people live good lives, however I sometimes find it pitiful that certain people who cannot even begin to comprehend living a good life without the endorsement of religion. I want to make it clear that I am in no way referencing this to yourself or any other person on this forum; you obviously have an open mind because you have invited people to attempt and disprove you.

Unfortunately, there are too many people who cannot see that benefits of some good old altruism once and a while. I am inclined to say too much hedonism and spite, in some respects. Too much general ignorance in regards to the feelings of others also, especially in young teenagers. For example, only today a boy from a couple of years below me seemed to find it funny to push me into the road whilst I was waiting to cross. Another group seemed to gain enjoyment out of watching my friend grimace after one member of the rabble asked my friend: 'are you ****ing ginger?'. Interesting use of an expletive, I know, especially seeing as the question needn't be asked if you have any logic in there whatsoever.

Thinks like this are gradually turning me into a bag of nerves who sighs alot, and, right now, I'm sighing a hell of a lot, heh. I do worry for the world, if people can't just be kind or thoughtful to one another every once in a while, what does the future hold? Mass murder simply out of spite? I dunno, perhaps I'm just seeing things in varying shades of grey at the moment.

@awoelt,

so...
god is important as method for knowing about the importance of living our live doing always the right things, helping the others,,, and tring to not fall in sin....

religions are one way for doing that people do not make bad things to theirselves and the other ones who every one live....

religion as a education way.. as a exit for LIVE 4 LIVING.

@awoelt,

awoelt wrote:

Alot of people think that we do not need religon. Many say that we only believe in god because we want to think there is a heaven. They think it is stupid to do this. But for me, wanting there to be a heaven is only a part of why i go to church. Many things that come from church really help you in life, be there a god or not. I can not find one thing in my religon that does not help you in life. Even praying helps you! Even if there is no god (im pretty sure there is) it helps to believe in him. Alot of atheist will say "You can still live those principles without beliving in god". This is not true. The fact that if you sin without going through the repentance process you go to HELL!keeps you from sinning. If there is nothing like that you will just say "oops. ill try not do that again." but you most likley will do it again. If you think you can disprove this tell me.

I can well believe that faith-based belief offers comforts not available to more sceptical athiests. The idea of being forgiven without any other human necessarily knowing what you need forgiving for; the idea that you are never alone no matter how lonely you feel; the removal of your own finitude; safety in both numbers and history... The problem is that unless you have some strong reason for already being in or converting to a religion (raised to be religious by your parents, school and state for instance), it is pretty much impossible to make a leap of faith on the promise of those comforts alone, since as much as we'd like them, we could never truly believe in them. Further, there's not much any one religion offers you can't get from any other faith, which tends to dilute its impact somewhat. Don't get me wrong, I envy the pants off Christians in some respects, but not most respects.

The idea that eternity in hell deters sin is nothing more than self-fulfilling prophecy, since it becomes necessary to state that any apparently Christian person who commits grave sin isn't really Christian because otherwise they would not have sinned, even if it's a child-abusing cleric being considered. You're not really Christian (and so promised eternal heaven) until you're dead, which is a tad late. The human race has its own effective methods to keep behaviour in check such as judging and prosecuting.

@awoelt,

awoelt wrote:

The fact that if you sin without going through the repentance process you go to HELL!:devilish:keeps you from sinning.

I am a better person than you because I need no reward or punishment to feel repentance.

If there is a God, it is far more likely to me that this whole heaven and hell nonsense was simply his method for distinguishing motive.

When we reach the gates you will be utterly flabbergasted when God says "Welcome to all those who did good by his fellow man without turning an ear to my whims."

@awoelt,

if i was god and you were my little son, awoelt, i would probably dislike you because my punishments are keeping you from sin, where is the infinitive-love that punisher-god gives to everybody? shouldn't you do the same too?
'so why do i love you? u use me! sleep now in the fire' i'd say, if i was god.

and if 'many' say (i think u mentioned many of the believers) that the reason why they believe because there is a heaven, i'd dislike my sons more!

since this is a young-philosophers forum, i feel free to answer this very-young(like me) message of you

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