Me or You?

@sheeps,

You are whoever you want to believe yourself to be. Doesn't mean you're necessarily either.

@sheeps,

You are me, me are you, we are ONE.

@Justin,

Spiritually there is no me or you.

Physically we are all a minimum of seven molecules shared custody of the body material that was once Ghengis Khan.

Socially we are us

Culturally I am me and you are the not me

Mentally I am me and I am me

@sheeps,

Goo goo ga joob...

@sheeps,

sheeps wrote:

Am i me? Or am i you?

I am I, and you are you, and no matter what you say or do, when ever this is said; it is true...

---------- Post added at 08:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 AM ----------

Holiday20310401 wrote:

You are whoever you want to believe yourself to be. Doesn't mean you're necessarily either.

What??? Where is the hanged man who wouldn't have believed himself the hangman???Being is not believing...Being is meaning..

@Fido,

Fido wrote:

I am I, and you are you, and no matter what you say or do, when ever this is said; it is true...

---------- Post added at 08:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 AM ----------

What??? Where is the hanged man who wouldn't have believed himself the hangman???Being is not believing...Being is meaning..

Sorry I got a little pessimistic Fido. If there's no one to interpret meaning then what's the point? What's the point of meaning anyways? Sounds to me like there is still some assigning of truth here. Nobody will ever be beyond the truth; lying, self-deception.

@sheeps,

Absolutely right...No being, no meaning... As Schopenhauer said: the world is my idea...Nice idea... And; the world will end with me... So; When we die, all meaning dies....As far as assinging truth goes, truth is just a certain meaning... And a form of relationship, but when we say truth we have a certain meaning in mind, and if you can strip away all the paint and window dressing, people concern themselves with truth because life depends upon it... Truth is life..

@Fido,

I often do think everything around me is a digitalization, similar to that in the matrix. Because I can never understand what makes me concious, and not anyone else. If a different sperm had fertalized a different egg, would I be here?

Meh, in the world I live in, everyone is themselves, I cannot see into their mind, not control them. So you are you.

@MaezGun,

"I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together."

@MaezGun,

MaezGun wrote:

I often do think everything around me is a digitalization, similar to that in the matrix. Because I can never understand what makes me concious, and not anyone else. If a different sperm had fertalized a different egg, would I be here?

Meh, in the world I live in, everyone is themselves, I cannot see into their mind, not control them. So you are you.

No...You would not be here...They would be here and the consolation is: They would not miss you...

@Fido,

Fido;61513 wrote:

No...You would not be here...They would be here and the consolation is: They would not miss you...

A depressing thought, but true. A person is never missed if no one had any clue that they would be there, and what they would be like.

However, the idea of consciousness by birth is still a little confusing to me. I'll try and convey my thoughts intelligently.
A sperm meets an egg and fertilizes it. An infant develops. A baby is born. A baby grows up. If a different sperm cell had fertilized that egg, the parents would still have a child, but the child would simply look much different. However, is this the only difference that is decided upon birth?
So I guess it's kind of like; is a child's/person's "soul" or being designated and determined immediately at fertilization? Is it the sperm and egg that create that person's consciousness/soul/being?

I don't think I've said this in a way anyone will understand. But if you do, please reply.

@sheeps,

When I was very little I got a hold of some child psych...And I came across the word tabla raza... I used to say such shet to my parents: You made me this way... Sorry you don't like me... Only I never said sorry...Speaking from the experience of my own children, only a childless person would say such nutz as blank slate... Children are born with their personalities complete... What a parent can do with it is quite small, and what the child does with it is his life... I don't know when it happens... Children are tuned in a little in the womb, jumping when startled and the like... But you find that when you meet them they do not make much of an impression, but looking back at them after they have grown some, you can never think of a time when they were not themselves... Their attitudes, their characters, their demeanor are so themselves...Knowing what little one can do with children is a clue to how little we can do with adults...I think the Muslims say: If you would chnage the world, first change yourself... We think external change is so much more difficult, but to change the world we must first change so many individuals, and reason fails us... The only way to change self, and to change anyone is to make them feel differently... Reason runs up hard against the emotions because how we feel is who we are...And who we are, and what we think is true is all bound up together, so to attack ones view of truth, which is what they are, brings up every defense... The power of art, and music is that it makes people feel differently without attacking their vision of truth... I hope this helps...

@sheeps,

Fido wrote, in part: "the world will end with me"

No, not really.

When 'you' die, sure, the world ends FOR 'you', but the world itself keeps right on ticking away whether Fido is here or not.

Even if each of us (all six billion plus) die right now, this second, the world/universe/reality is gonna keep right on ticking away.

*

As for the question, "Am i me? Or am i you?": I am Henry Quirk, a distinct, discrete, organic, autonomous, phenomenon. You, sheeps, are 'sheeps', a distinct, discrete, organic, autonomous, phenomenon.

We're similar since we're both cut from the same cloth, so to speak.

But: we're not the same.

I am NOT you, you are NOT me.

@henry quirk,

henry quirk;70314 wrote:

Fido wrote, in part: "the world will end with me"

No, not really.

When 'you' die, sure, the world ends FOR 'you', but the world itself keeps right on ticking away whether Fido is here or not.

Even if each of us (all six billion plus) die right now, this second, the world/universe/reality is gonna keep right on ticking away.

*

As for the question, "Am i me? Or am i you?": I am Henry Quirk, a distinct, discrete, organic, autonomous, phenomenon. You, sheeps, are 'sheeps', a distinct, discrete, organic, autonomous, phenomenon.

We're similar since we're both cut from the same cloth, so to speak.

But: we're not the same.

I am NOT you, you are NOT me.

What you clearly do not grasp is that being is meaning...No being, no meaning... So is the world going to keep on ticking??? How is that suppose to mean anything to anyone without a witness and someone to share with...
And we are the same, and worse, we have life in common with all life on the planet...I have a lot in common with sheep, and a lot in common with lions... For example, I have wool in my head, and I like to mark my territory by pissing all over everything...But; I also have a lot in common with worms and most microbes, so, much as I like to think highly of myself, I am more accurate to the facts thinking lowly of mysellf....

@Fido,

"What you clearly do not grasp is that being is meaning...No being, no meaning... So is the world going to keep on ticking???"

What you don't get: the world has no intrinsic meaning. Each of 'us' (human individuals) bring subjective meaning or meanings to the world, as individuals, but the world itself has no objective, intrinsic, meaning.

And: it doesn't need one.

Tomorrow: all humans kick off as result of Captain Trips. The world keeps right on ticking along without us. Cheetahs still run down antelopes, trees still fall in the forests, clouds roll on, and rain falls. All: meaningless, but still happening whether or not you, me, or anyone is here to witness it and impart meaning.

"How is that suppose to mean anything to anyone without a witness and someone to share with..."

See above.

"And we are the same, and worse, we have life in common with all life on the planet...I have a lot in common with sheep, and a lot in common with lions..."

Commonality is not synonymous with 'sameness'.

"...so, much as I like to think highly of myself, I am more accurate to the facts thinking lowly of mysellf...."

I suggest avoiding idealism in all forms: including thinking 'lowly' or 'highly' of one's self.

Seems to me: pragmatically one should think 'realistically' of one's self.

It's realistic to acknowledge the exceptional nature of the human individual (what else on the rock can do what you or I can do?).

It's not realistic to elevate the metaphor/pattern making power of the human individual to universe/reality/world-sustaining proportions.

@sheeps,

sheeps;58699 wrote:

Am i me? Or am i you?

No one can ever be 'you' (but in the eyes of another 'me').
We are all 'me'; all 'self'.

@henry quirk,

henry quirk;70339 wrote:

"What you clearly do not grasp is that being is meaning...No being, no meaning... So is the world going to keep on ticking???"

What you don't get: the world has no intrinsic meaning. Each of 'us' (human individuals) bring subjective meaning or meanings to the world, as individuals, but the world itself has no objective, intrinsic, meaning.

And: it doesn't need one.

Tomorrow: all humans kick off as result of Captain Trips. The world keeps right on ticking along without us. Cheetahs still run down antelopes, trees still fall in the forests, clouds roll on, and rain falls. All: meaningless, but still happening whether or not you, me, or anyone is here to witness it and impart meaning.

"How is that suppose to mean anything to anyone without a witness and someone to share with..."

See above.

"And we are the same, and worse, we have life in common with all life on the planet...I have a lot in common with sheep, and a lot in common with lions..."

Commonality is not synonymous with 'sameness'.

"...so, much as I like to think highly of myself, I am more accurate to the facts thinking lowly of mysellf...."

I suggest avoiding idealism in all forms: including thinking 'lowly' or 'highly' of one's self.

Seems to me: pragmatically one should think 'realistically' of one's self.

It's realistic to acknowledge the exceptional nature of the human individual (what else on the rock can do what you or I can do?).

It's not realistic to elevate the metaphor/pattern making power of the human individual to universe/reality/world-sustaining proportions.

If you say the world keeps on ticking without us you are saying it has intrinsic meaning...Only life has meaning...When I die the world dies... Grab a shovel and stay ready to bury yourself...

@Fido,

"If you say the world keeps on ticking without us you are saying it has intrinsic meaning..."

No: what I'm saying is the world (as mechanism) and everything in the world (as mechanism) will continue on whether or not you or me or anyone are around to witness it, comment on it, give it personal meaning.

If we're all gone and the tree keeps growing, where's the meaning?

Without one of us to witness the tree and 'judge' it (give it meaning) the tree is 'meaningless'. This is neither good or bad?just what is.

"Only life has meaning..."

No: only the human individual can bring subjective meaning to the world. The life of an amoeba is meaningless unless a human individual gives it meaning, and, even then, that meaning is only important to the human individual. The amoeba (a bit of biological autonoma) is oblivious to the human individual and the meaning he or she crafts.

"When I die the world dies... Grab a shovel and stay ready to bury yourself..."

No: when you die, the world -- as you experience it -- dies with you. I, however, should I outlive you, will continue to be in the world, live in the world.

How do I know this?

When my Grand-pop kicked: I stood in the funeral parlor, stared down at his embalmed carcass, and said 'bye'.

His death, your death, my death, etc. ends the world as we each experience it, but the world continues without us.

The mistake, again: to elevate your death with reality death. After you go, the rest of us will continue to screw, drink beer, squabble about politics, and philosophize. You just won't be around to witness, or participate, in the shenanigans.

@henry quirk,

Henry;...If you think the world keeps on ticking whether anyone is around or not, then you think that on faith, and not on any sort of evidence...You really know better, and everyone does, but the thought that something exists after their deaths allows them to consider that they may exist after their deaths...That is the real goal: meaning without being to have some chance of being...

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