Would you trade your life for a happy feeling?

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Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2008 07:47 pm
Ok, heres the question.

"Sciencetists have invented box that you walk in, sit in a chair, and the machine shoots stimulents into your body that makes you feel happy. The box will vary the stimulent so its a new feeling of happy every so often so that you wount get borde of it. After about 10 hours, a life support system turns on to keep you alive. Its free to use for as long as you like. However, everyone that has entered the box has never come back out.:disappointed: Now, your next in line. Would you go into the box knowing you may never come out?"

I said no becuase the real happyness isn't in a metal box. It's in your backyard. I would much rather move and run than sit and feel good. In life, you can't just want to feel good 24/7. You have to feel the full range on emoutions. Anger, sarrow, ect. Thats what makes life so great, the ability to feel this range on emoution.

Input?
 
FatalMuse
 
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2008 08:06 pm
@Sytar Embassy,
I would say no because there are people in my life who I'm attached to and they're attached to me, so by entering the box I may experience a happy sensation but I would also be causing pain to those I loved.

I also think true happiness comes from the full range range of human emotions, the ups & downs. Happiness is relative to other feelings.
 
socrato
 
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2008 08:07 pm
@Sytar Embassy,
I agree completely, and also, where is "Niwot" exactly?
 
Sytar Embassy
 
Reply Tue 19 Aug, 2008 08:23 pm
@socrato,
:lol:Niwot is close to Longmont, CO. Its a little sub-divison of Longmont actuly. If you look it up, you might find it as Longmont. But Google Maps will bring you right to Niwot.

Thanks for repling. Anyone else?
 
Zetetic11235
 
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 12:18 am
@Sytar Embassy,
The famous thought experiment by Nozick used to shoot down hedonism. It yielded interesting results. Most people would rather not live in constant pleasure and only for pleasure, the drive to freedom overrides it. I have to admit I would prefer to be free and miserable than live in a pleasure box.

This is why preference utilitarianism is so much stronger than the pleasure/ pain/happiness ect. model. It removes the imbedded presumption of what is most important to the general populace.
 
Deftil
 
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 12:54 am
@FatalMuse,
FatalMuse wrote:
I would say no because there are people in my life who I'm attached to and they're attached to me, so by entering the box I may experience a happy sensation but I would also be causing pain to those I loved.


I agree with FM (was actually going to say almost exactly the same thing myself), but will also say that if I didn't have ANY loved ones in the world at all, then I would seriously consider entering Mr. Happy Box.
 
iconoclast
 
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 12:54 am
@Zetetic11235,
Let me get this straight? I walk into the box, sit down and all my cares, worries and problems are at an end? I'm happy forevermore on every concievable level? This is not relative happiness - i.e. the difference between something to eat and a three course meal, such that I'd rather sit in the box than leave, but that I have no need to leave because all my needs are satisfied. This is an infinite course meal. This is not oblivion, like being so drugged up I can't be rationally unhappy. If I retained all my faculties - I'd get in the box. If my faculties were compromised to achieve this state then no.

Yoops! Just re-read the original post. Drug induced happiness, no of course not.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 07:11 am
@iconoclast,
I'd try it... with the most sincere hope that I would have the will power to exit that box.

Ooh, for all you Nietzscheans out there, do you have enough faith in your strength of will to enter the box?
 
iconoclast
 
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 08:07 am
@Didymos Thomas,
DT,

Drug induced hapiness is not happiness. It's illusory on two levels - one, it's a compromise of your faculties - in other words happiness purchased at a reduced level of function, and two, it's relief from the pain of not having the drug that passes for happiness. Will power is a non-question in face of addiction. That's why AA, NA and so on talk about 'rock bottom' - it's only when the addict reaches rock bottom and weighs the short term misery of quitting against the long-term misery of a lifetime of addiction can they make the choice.

iconoclast.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 08:31 am
@iconoclast,
Quote:
Drug induced hapiness is not happiness.


Believe me, I'm well aware of that fact.

Quote:
It's illusory on two levels - one, it's a compromise of your faculties - in other words happiness purchased at a reduced level of function, and two, it's relief from the pain of not having the drug that passes for happiness.


You're correct about the first point, incorrect about the second. If you were correct, then the drug would never be appealing in the first place because the individual would have no discomfort when away from a drug prior to habitual use. Addiction doesn't begin at the moment of first intoxication. For most drugs, addiction comes with habitual use, and the development of predictable habits surrounding the drug use.

Quote:
Will power is a non-question in face of addiction.


Then no one could quit a drug cold turkey. However, people can accomplish this feat.
Quote:
That's why AA, NA and so on talk about 'rock bottom' - it's only when the addict reaches rock bottom and weighs the short term misery of quitting against the long-term misery of a lifetime of addiction can they make the choice.


First, AA and NA are pseudo-religious cults. No offense to anyone who has benefited from the programs, they work for some, but I've been there, witnessed and engaged in the ceremony. Be weary of their claims regarding drugs and addiction. I'd recommend less extreme organizations when looking for information.

Second, hitting rock bottom is the moment when you begin to gain enough will power to attempt to climb out of the hole. AA/NA preach that the addict is powerless in the face of the addiction, which is simply false.

To return to the topic of the thread, let me point out that we do not, and cannot, know what being in the box is like without having been in the box. No one has come out, but this does not mean that those inside cannot come out if they like. If nothing else, entering the box with the sincere intention to leave the box at some point in time could provide the rest of humanity with a description of the experience inside the box - maybe even a warning never to enter.

And consider this - if after ten hours, a life support system comes on, perhaps it would be possible to slowly ween the patient off the stimulants and revive him/her. That would at least give me a better chance of getting out of the box alive.
 
iconoclast
 
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 08:53 am
@Didymos Thomas,
DT,

I concede the second point to the extent that drugs can produce pleasant and exciting effects - but less so the more you take them, and in addiction, it's not about the pleasure of the drug anymore, but about the pain of not having the drug.

I've been to AA/NA - and took what I wanted from the meetings, which was people who understood and weren't judgemental who'd support me in my decision to quit. But it became somewhat self flagellatory after a while, going there listening to people talk about it.

I've done cold turkey half a dozen times, but not once by choice - and never with the drugs there. It had nothing to do with will power and given the choice, i'd have taken the drug every time. When I quit I had to move away - just to get away from people.

Anyhow, as you say, back to the thread, don't get in the box, it's a prison.

iconoclast.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 09:09 am
@iconoclast,
Quote:
I concede the second point to the extent that drugs can produce pleasant and exciting effects - but less so the more you take them, and in addiction, it's not about the pleasure of the drug anymore, but about the pain of not having the drug.
Right, which generally requires habitual use.

Quote:
I've been to AA/NA - and took what I wanted from the meetings, which was people who understood and weren't judgemental who'd support me in my decision to quit. But it became somewhat self flagellatory after a while, going there listening to people talk about it.
The meetings tend to be filled with nonjudgmental people who want to help you quit. My main concern with twelve step is that no path out of addiction works for everyone, yet twelve step programs enforce the notion that, in order to recover from addiction, the addict must surrender himself completely to God.

Quote:
I've done cold turkey half a dozen times, but not once by choice - and never with the drugs there. It had nothing to do with will power and given the choice, i'd have taken the drug every time.
Cold turkey by strength of will will not always work. Especially when dealing with harder drugs and particularly vicious addictions. But the issue of will is not limited to cold turkey, it is part of any addiction recovery. That's what "rock bottom" is all about. Even walking into an AA/NA meeting, without a court order to do so, is a matter of will power for most.

Quote:
Anyhow, as you say, back to the thread, don't get in the box, it's a prison.
So what if it is a prison? It's a unique prison that has attracted some number of people. This is something we, human beings, need to check out. Someone has to experience the process and tell about it - maybe we should get rid of the box. But we can't know until we experience the box.
I'm not suggesting everyone jump happily into the machine, I'm suggesting we learn about the experience of being in the machine.
 
Sytar Embassy
 
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 03:08 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
:lol:Let me change the question alittle. Say that you can only spend 30 min in the box a day and still pay nothing. However, you can pay an extra $100 for another hour in the box. How much money would you spend on the box?

Its like crak. Never endding happyness would drive men mad for such a feeling, don't you think?
 
iconoclast
 
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 04:19 pm
@Sytar Embassy,
With respect, I'm done talking about this. Don't do drugs, they're false and destructive. iconoclast.
 
Deftil
 
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 07:13 pm
@iconoclast,
iconoclast wrote:
DT,

Drug induced hapiness is not happiness. It's illusory on two levels - one, it's a compromise of your faculties - in other words happiness purchased at a reduced level of function, and two, it's relief from the pain of not having the drug that passes for happiness. Will power is a non-question in face of addiction. That's why AA, NA and so on talk about 'rock bottom' - it's only when the addict reaches rock bottom and weighs the short term misery of quitting against the long-term misery of a lifetime of addiction can they make the choice.


Wait, if drug induced happiness is not happiness, then why is it called drug induced happiness? By definition, it must be happiness. If it isn't, then it isn't actually drug induced happiness.
This isn't to say that there are not significant drawbacks to drug use; there are - especially over the long term, but to say that happiness isn't happiness is logically inconsistent.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 07:30 pm
@Deftil,
Don't you guys know? "Happiness is a warm gun".
 
Sytar Embassy
 
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 08:59 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
O man, me is confused! "A warm gun?" Could you explain your self a little on that?

If no one has thing else to say, I could get a new situation and post it. I have the class 2marrow.
 
de Silentio
 
Reply Thu 21 Aug, 2008 02:04 pm
@Sytar Embassy,
Sytar Embassy wrote:
Ok, heres the question.

I said no becuase the real happyness isn't in a metal box. It's in your backyard. I would much rather move and run than sit and feel good. In life, you can't just want to feel good 24/7. You have to feel the full range on emoutions. Anger, sarrow, ect. Thats what makes life so great, the ability to feel this range on emoution.

Input?


Funny you classify what would make you happy, because isn't this what the box would do? Wouldn't the box make you 'move and run', feel anger and sorrow just to make you feel happy?
 
de Silentio
 
Reply Thu 21 Aug, 2008 02:17 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Drug induced happiness is happiness. What's the difference between a drug making me happy and sex with my wife making me happy?

Sex can make someone feel happy if it is enjoyable, but obviously forced sex will not make someone feel happy. Likewise, a drug can make someone feel happy, but forced drug use (addiction) will not.

Are drugs a prescription for happiness? Well, in fact they may be. Drugs help people feel happy all the time. Caffeine, aspirin, anti-depressants. Of course it is not the drug alone that makes one happy. The drug has to correlate with good experiences. Think about someone who has social-anxiety-disorder. In a room full of people they are nervous and uncomfortable, happiness doesn't usually follow from these feelings. But if they take a drug that alleviates these feelings, then they have the potential for being happy. And all things equal, it is the drug that gives them the potential for feeling happy, and if they feel happy, it is the drug that made them that way.
 
Justin
 
Reply Thu 21 Aug, 2008 02:40 pm
@Sytar Embassy,
Sytar Embassy wrote:
"Sciencetists have invented box that you walk in, sit in a chair, and the machine shoots stimulents into your body that makes you feel happy. The box will vary the stimulent so its a new feeling of happy every so often so that you wount get borde of it. After about 10 hours, a life support system turns on to keep you alive. Its free to use for as long as you like. However, everyone that has entered the box has never come back out.:disappointed: Now, your next in line. Would you go into the box knowing you may never come out?"


I'd also have to say no to this one. First of all, I don't believe there's anything science can invent that would make a person truly happy. Stimulants can induce a false happiness but if you were unhappy to begin with, then you are just an unhappy person on happy stimulants.

Happiness cannot be purchased just as it cannot be induced and the thought of the possibility is somewhat absurd either way. Happiness is first found within self and then expressed outside of self. We are always looking for happiness in things and in other people and in stuff outside of ourselves that we have no control over and we often find that this type of happiness will always let us down.

So, NO I don't think I'd want to step into a box that made false promises of something science has no control over.
 
 

 
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