Why do you believe in god?

@Zacrates,

DT,

such as?

iconoclast.

@astrotheological,

astrotheological wrote:

... but why do you believe in god?

I'm afraid I don't have much substantive to add to this, but it did bring to mind an interesting perspective: The last time I asked someone this, in a serious setting, was to a priest who'd come to visit us during Thanksgiving Holiday (we had family visiting who didn't want to go without a spiritual pretense). After our meal, the conversation turned to religion and I - being the positive atheist I aspire to be - asked him, "On a personal level, why do you believe in God".

He put down his coffee, looked me in the eye and said, simply, "cuz..." - that was it.

For good or ill, I think that speaks volumes and have to smile whenever I recall it

:bigsmile:

@Khethil,

Instances where religion promoted racial tolerance?

Sure. This is an easy one.

Christianity first gained popularity with the poor and enslaved of the Roman Empire. Especially among the slaves, people of all ethnic backgrounds came together in common worship, in community.

Dr. King, the famous Baptist minister, "I Have a Dream" speech, ect. Not to mention the army of like minded ministers who fought as King fought for racial equality. People of all races marched.

Baha'ullah, founder of the Baha'i faith, begins a world wide religious movement which recognizes the validity of and embraces all of the world's major faith traditions. Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, ect.

The significant and vital role religious institutions played in the Abolition movements in the US and Great Britain.

Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, ect - faith traditions are open to people of all racial backgrounds.

If you honestly believe that religion has played absolutely no part in fostering racial equality, then you have absolutely no understanding of history. None. Similarly, if you deny the fact that religion has been perverted to justify racism, then you have no understanding of history. Like politics and science, religion can be used for immense good and abused for immense evil.

Quote:

After our meal, the conversation turned to religion and I - being the positive atheist I aspire to be - asked him, "On a personal level, why do you believe in God".

He put down his coffee, looked me in the eye and said, simply, "cuz..." - that was it.

For good or ill, I think that speaks volumes and have to smile whenever I recall it

The arrogance and ignorance of the clergy can be depressing. This is why I abstain from organized religion.

@Didymos Thomas,

i think on a whole most religions do promote more often than not, a superior race and god favoring one country over another... people using god as an excuse for anything

then some individuals come along with the right ideas... and are religious, but can see all religions are essentially similar and exercise tolerance... but religion doesnt promote wisdom... it promotes being sheep. Razz

@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

All of mankind has spiritual needs. God is simply part of the language involved in some spiritual traditions.

Atheism, theism, whatever - these are not indicators of morality.

How is atheism spiritual?

@astrotheological,

Moses said to them " It is the bread the Lord has given you to eat." Exodus 16:15

Well Christians answer this. How did Moses get the bread that god wanted them to eat.

What if the lord is actually the sun. It would make sence because without the sun there would be no such thing as bread now would there. Maybe Moses was translating what the sun has created for them which would be bread. Moses probably just assumed that "god" which is the sun made the bread for them to eat because he couldn't come up with any other logical explanation as to why there is bread for them to eat.

@astrotheological,

In the beginning of genesis it says "And god said let there be light, and there was light." Genesis 1:3 Why would Mosses think that god was the sun when he wrote the bible and that was the third sentance he wrote?

@Zacrates,

Quote:

How is atheism spiritual?

Atheism isn't necessarily spiritual, but you can be spiritual and an atheist. Taoism, for example, is a non-theist spiritual tradition.

@Zacrates,

im quite sure moses took no part in writing anything in the bible himself...

the bible is mostly creative metaphor and is a great book when you realize its outdated and not to be taken LITERALLY.... specially the creation concept... its simplified for the ancient and simple mind... now we can better IMAGINE how God created existance.... with a big bang...

most ancient religions did worship the sun... chiristianity isnt the first... and isnt the MOST right religion... at one point in time the majority of the people believed the earth was flat... as you can see, the majority opinion doesnt make something the truth. it is better in my opinion to imagine our creator as being the sun... than a white jesus or a man with a lightning bolt... or any other artistic representation.... as our whole existance could not be without the sun, our whole existance could not have began without the force behind creation.... our creater... God... Allah... Odin... YHWH... Apollo... whatever name you give it...

@sarathustrah,

Quote:

the bible is mostly creative metaphor and is a great book when you realize its outdated and not to be taken LITERALLY.... specially the creation concept... its simplified for the ancient and simple mind... now we can better IMAGINE how God created existance.... with a big bang...

You're right that it's figurative - and because the book is figurative the idea that we can "better" discuss how God does something with new scientific developments misses the point. It's a myth. We cannot rewrite Homer and expect the text to be better because we update the science. It's myth. The science is irrelevant.

Quote:

most ancient religions did worship the sun... chiristianity isnt the first...

Psst... Christians do not worship the sun. Nor do the Jews.

@Didymos Thomas,

oh i mean christians or jews werent the first religion... i meant before them... egyptians and the "savages" worshipped the sun and were at the top of my mind...

christians and jews worship the SON Very Happy

and i dont mean to rewrite the bible... and i would never want anyone to make a new one... but i wouldnt say its entirely myth... and even so, take like MLKs motivational speeches... in 2000 years they may be well outdated... and you could no longer prove he existed probably... and even if you decide to bump it down to myth... the points should never be forgotten...
and i think science and imagination should always be used to build your beliefs... you cant rewrite homer... but whats wrong with being inspired by it to make a new epic adventure thats more modern in subject matter

wow i totally dont feel like im sayin this right, or if im even reading your response right lol... i gotta get some brain fuel... gonna make some dinner Razz

@sarathustrah,

Jews don't worship the "SON", they only believe in one god and no son or "Ghost of holiness" or something.

@sarathustrah,

You're doing very well, actually. I only respond when someone is either interesting and enlightening to converse with, or when someone is making misleading and divisive claims. My conversation with you has, to my satisfaction, been interesting and enlightening.

Yes, Sun worship has been popular throughout history. And for good reason, which you have pointed out.

Oh, and Christians worship the Son; Jews think he was a great teacher, but they do not worship him.

I think you make an excellent point about Homer. His work is not longer relevant enough to man to be used as a basis for our religion, but his work is still inspiring and worth study. I think all scripture is like this - when the scripture no longer speaks to you, do not use it as scripture. But however distant the scripture becomes, the scripture will always contain truth and value worthy of our modern attention. The Bible, too. Someday, the Bible will be a dead scripture, if you will. But always, so long as a copy exists, the Bible will be read and studied by man.

What of the Bible is not mythical?

Also, I'm not sure the classification of "myth" is a bump down from anything. Sounds like an elevation. With myth, no matter what changes, the message is always valuable. Homer is like this. There was a time when people took the stories to be relatively factual historical accounts, but today, when we all know better, the book still has immense value to us. Talk about literary brilliance!

@Zacrates,

Zacrates wrote:

In the beginning of genesis it says "And god said let there be light, and there was light." Genesis 1:3 Why would Mosses think that god was the sun when he wrote the bible and that was the third sentance he wrote?

Yes but moses is simply interpreting what he believes started life. The sun gives light. It gives energy. It allows life to exist. Moses is simply saying that by letting light shine upon earth life can exist. Hes just saying it in the way that god (the sun) would say it if it could talk for itself. In Moses mind the sun was a god. It just couldn't talk for itself so Mose talked for it. This is just a thoery of what the bible could have been interpreted back then. Nobody knows exactly how it was interpreted back then anyways.

@astrotheological,

Man how do people get thanked dozens of times.

@astrotheological,

No, in the mind of Moses (or the actual author of the story) the Sun was not God. God created the Sun. Moses isn't talking for a sun god if Moses has that god creates the sun. The sun, and everything, is presented as the creation of God.

And we can determine some things about the way the book was interpreted in the time it was written. The book did not exist, and was not composed, in a historical vacuum.

Thanks take time to accumulate. Over time you will have many as well. Smile

@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

No, in the mind of Moses (or the actual author of the story) the Sun was not God. God created the Sun. Moses isn't talking for a sun god if Moses has that god creates the sun. The sun, and everything, is presented as the creation of God.

And we can determine some things about the way the book was interpreted in the time it was written. The book did not exist, and was not composed, in a historical vacuum.

Thanks take time to accumulate. Over time you will have many as well.

Tell me where it says that god created the sun.

@astrotheological,

Well, you can open your Bible to the first book of Genesis and read the part where God says "Let there be light" and there was light. This is God creating the sun and moon.

@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

Well, you can open your Bible to the first book of Genesis and read the part where God says "Let there be light" and there was light. This is God creating the sun and moon.

I just explained earlier in the thread about that quote from the bible. Besides there is no scientific proof so far as we know that god exists or a being exists that can just do that stuff in 7 days anyways. I think I also explained that science is true and religion isn't and why.

@astrotheological,

Quote:

I just explained earlier in the thread about that quote from the bible.

Right, and your explanation doesn't seem to hold water. In the discourse, God exists prior to light existing. The sun and moon are the sources of light, thus God existed prior to the sun and moon.

In the story.

Quote:

Besides there is no scientific proof so far as we know that god exists or a being exists that can just do that stuff in 7 days anyways. I think I also explained that science is true and religion isn't and why.

So what? The Bible is myth, not science. The Bible doesn't contain scientific truths, the Bible conveys, with the use of figurative language, answers to the "why" questions. Meanwhile, science coldly explains the physical process of "how". Both are vitally important. But religion is not science, and science is not religion.

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