The End Of Repentance

  1. Philosophy Forum
  2. » Christianity
  3. » The End Of Repentance

Get Email Updates Email this Topic Print this Page

Reply Sun 6 Jun, 2010 08:04 am
Hi All,

The End Of Repentance...
When has the line been crossed (if ever)?

1) What act is beyond repentance (if any)?
2) Is "to sin in the knowledge of sin "unforgivable"?
3) If God (biblical) only forgives those who forgive themselves - What is the point of God's forgiveness?

Your replies to these questions are, indeed, useful. And I am grateful for them.
Thank you, everyone, and have a great everything, always.

Mark...
 
Jacques Maritain
 
Reply Sun 6 Jun, 2010 10:51 am
@mark noble,
To deny God's grace and forgiveness at the moment of death is the only unforgivable sin. Other than that, redemnption is always a possibility.
 
mark noble
 
Reply Sun 6 Jun, 2010 11:00 am
@Jacques Maritain,
Jacques Maritain;173825 wrote:
To deny God's grace and forgiveness at the moment of death is the only unforgivable sin. Other than that, redemnption is always a possibility.


Hi Jaques,
Doesn't that open the floodgates to doing as you please until the moment of death - When you repent and are forgiven?

Thank you for replying Jaques, and treading where so many others fear to.
Have a lovely day, sir.

Mark...
 
Jacques Maritain
 
Reply Sun 6 Jun, 2010 11:04 am
@mark noble,
mark noble;173827 wrote:
Hi Jaques,
Doesn't that open the floodgates to doing as you please until the moment of death - When you repent and are forgiven?

That's a common question, and honestly I can't fully answer it since that's ultimately God's decision. I do know there's a difference between perfect and imperfect contrition for sins. Perfect contrition is that you're sorry for what you did because you know they were wrong and offend God. Imperfect contrition is you're sorry because you're afraid of Hell.

So God does recognize a distinction between why people seek forgiveness, and that it's not necessarily a free for all.
 
mark noble
 
Reply Sun 6 Jun, 2010 11:14 am
@Jacques Maritain,
Jacques Maritain;173828 wrote:
That's a common question, and honestly I can't fully answer it since that's ultimately God's decision. I do know there's a difference between perfect and imperfect contrition for sins. Perfect contrition is that you're sorry for what you did because you know they were wrong and offend God. Imperfect contrition is you're sorry because you're afraid of Hell.

So God does recognize a distinction between why people seek forgiveness, and that it's not necessarily a free for all.


Hi Jaques,

That's a common reply too, But the right one, at that.
Why do you think Hell is used so much in christianity to scare people into obedience?

Thank you again, Jaques.

Mark...
 
mark gamson
 
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2010 07:39 am
@mark noble,
Hello

The only unforgivable sin I know of that Christ spoke about is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. (attributing something to the Devil that is God's)
 
mark noble
 
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2010 12:18 pm
@mark gamson,
mark gamson;174650 wrote:
Hello

The only unforgivable sin I know of that Christ spoke about is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. (attributing something to the Devil that is God's)

Hi Mark,

What though, is not God's?
See you tomorrow, my friend. And Journey well.
Mark...
 
Krumple
 
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2010 01:00 pm
@Jacques Maritain,
Jacques Maritain;173825 wrote:
To deny God's grace and forgiveness at the moment of death is the only unforgivable sin. Other than that, redemnption is always a possibility.


This is not true, at least not according to the bible. It states that if you are to blasphemy against the holy trinity such as saying, I deny the son, the father and the holy spirit then it is an unforgivable offense.

I deny the father the son and the holy spirit.
 
mark noble
 
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2010 01:27 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;174740 wrote:
This is not true, at least not according to the bible. It states that if you are to blasphemy against the holy trinity such as saying, I deny the son, the father and the holy spirit then it is an unforgivable offense.

I deny the father the son and the holy spirit.


Hi Krumple,
This is not true either, your reference is, but your iterpretation isn't.
Mark Gamson (above ) has the accurate interpretation. He has dug in the deepest of archives, I assure you. It means everything to him to be sure of what it is he worships and exists for.

Thank you for attending here though, It is always a pleasure to encounter your views. Have a splendid day, sir.

Mark...
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2010 11:55 pm
@mark noble,
I would like to turn this around a little. I would say the true act of repentance can only come about by realising the futility and stupidity of the alternatives. I don't think we are really going to repent because we feel we will be caught out or we are going to get into trouble. I think it is because living according to the righteous law (which is pretty much the same in every place and time) is the intelligent thing to do. And as Aristotle said, true virtue is its own reward. If you can establish yourself in virtue, act appropriately, live compassionately, then you need neither seek reward nor fear punishment. Isn't that the only kind of freedom worth wishing for?
 
mark noble
 
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2010 08:28 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;174939 wrote:
I would like to turn this around a little. I would say the true act of repentance can only come about by realising the futility and stupidity of the alternatives. I don't think we are really going to repent because we feel we will be caught out or we are going to get into trouble. I think it is because living according to the righteous law (which is pretty much the same in every place and time) is the intelligent thing to do. And as Aristotle said, true virtue is its own reward. If you can establish yourself in virtue, act appropriately, live compassionately, then you need neither seek reward nor fear punishment. Isn't that the only kind of freedom worth wishing for?


Hi Jeeprs,
No decent person would disagree with that. Clearly one must truly regret, remorsefully, their prior actions in order to truly repent, and, indeed, make best at never repeating such.
Thank you jeeprs, and have a great day.
Mark...
 
fast
 
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2010 09:31 am
@mark gamson,
[QUOTE=mark gamson;174650]Hello

The only unforgivable sin I know of that Christ spoke about is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. (attributing something to the Devil that is God's)[/QUOTE]That is close. Very very close. Also, as you point out, it's not merely blasphemy but rather blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. We can (and do) blaspheme many things all the time, but never do we blaspheme the Holy Spirit--nor should we, of course.

I'm not so sure that it's unforgivable so much as merely, it won't be forgiven, for those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit won't repent. It's not that they can't. They can [turn from their sin, that is], but ... they won't.

Also, it's no easy task to commit blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (not that we should strive to of course). It's so difficult that no atheist can do it. One must know God and purposefully attribute the work of God as the work of the Devil to commit blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and no atheist knows God, so no atheist will (or even can) commit the sin that won't be forgiven (what we call the unforgivable sin).

To those that fear that they may committed the sin, fear not, for not even attributing the work of God as that of the work of the devil is sufficient for it being so that you have committed the sin; for example, if you try to commit the sin in a fit of anger, you will fail to do so. I certainly don't mean to give the recipe for committing the sin (so I won't), but suffice it to say that only the truly wicked can do it. If you know God but nevertheless (for example) stand before the nation and tell the masses that something is and can only be the work of the devil, then I sure hope you don't believe in your heart that it is the work of God; or else, you just might burn. Such a person can (technically) change, as he has the free will to do so, but such a person won't-and that's why it won't be forgiven.

The above is merely my take on it. I don't know that I'm right, but I think I am. I'm no expert on the matter.

Godspeed,
 
The Joker006
 
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2010 10:34 am
@fast,
In my opinion we as humans repent every single day. Everything we say and do is accounted for. We all at some point rebound. As long as we live there will always be repentance.
 
mark noble
 
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2010 10:38 am
@fast,
Hi Fast,
I can't fault that approach. Mark and myself spend a great deal of time together (in the non-digital world), we discuss this no longer because (To us) it is conclusive. Upon its' shoulders - This has arisen - What, if anything, is NOT God's? Care to join us.
You're welcome to.
Thank you.
Mark...
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2010 12:13 pm
@Jacques Maritain,
Jacques Maritain;173828 wrote:
Imperfect contrition is you're sorry because you're afraid of Hell.


I thought that was the point of Hell, to make people afraid to sin.
 
fast
 
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2010 12:17 pm
@mark noble,
mark noble;175075 wrote:
Hi Fast,
I can't fault that approach. Mark and myself spend a great deal of time together (in the non-digital world), we discuss this no longer because (To us) it is conclusive. Upon its' shoulders - This has arisen - What, if anything, is NOT God's? Care to join us.
You're welcome to.
Thank you.
Mark...
That question can be taken more than one way, and I think what it means in other contexts should be explored before trying to answer it.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2010 06:20 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;175102 wrote:
I thought that was the point of Hell, to make people afraid to sin.


that's an interesting observation. It is certainly the case that religious orthodoxies have generally adopted the carrot (heaven) and stick (hell) approach to 'keeping their flocks on the straight and narrow'.

But from the viewpoint of transcendental philosophy, the reward-and-punishment mentality is all part of ignorance. As the Upanisad says "Free from fear, free from desire, him I call Sage, illumined". This means that if one is acting from fear of hell, or desire for heaven, one's motivation is still fundamentally ignorant.

I don't think this means heaven and hell aren't real. But nobody is sent to either. They find their own way. In this framework, the spiritual teacher is a guide, but the student must travel the road.
 
dpmartin
 
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2010 09:18 am
@mark noble,
"When has the line been crossed (if ever)?"

To turn from one’s own choice for himself, to God’s Choice for him, would be to repent. But what line are you talking about?

"1) What act is beyond repentance (if any)?"

To not repent.

"2) Is "to sin in the knowledge of sin "unforgivable"?"

No, what is unforgivable is to refuse the Presence of God. One can repent of sin even if he knows he is sinning.

"3) If God (biblical) only forgives those who forgive themselves - What is the point of God's forgiveness?"

“If God (biblical) only forgives those who forgive themselves “ This perception is erroneous to what the Bible says. God expects His to fogive because He being the Righteous Judgement in Mercy has forgiven their trespasses .

God’s forgiveness is to not hold the lack of the fulfillment of His Commandments against you. Even... Gen:2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam could not fufill this commandment and live after he and his wife ate of the tree. And Jesus being the Word of God in the Son of Man who did not eat of the tree, was able to complete fulifill this commandment as well as all the rest, and live.

Therefore in Him, meaning Jesus is the forgiveness of God to man. Making Peace betwixt Him and man.
 
mark noble
 
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2010 09:27 am
@dpmartin,
Hi dp,
Thank you for such a thought out reply.
One question though - Can satan repent? IYO.
Nice to see that you read the old king James version. I find it far more poetic than the new.
Have a great, yet moderable day, dp.
Mark...
 
dpmartin
 
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2010 05:03 pm
@mark noble,
Mark
thanks for the reply and, your welcome.

As far as anything that is mentioned in the Bible that I am aware of, no, Satan at least at this time can not repent, or at the least has no opportunity given to him. His place is not in the Presence of God, and man’s place in the earth and in the Presence of God. What must be understood is angels in the presence of God, see God’s Face and those not in the Presence of God have seen God’s Face and were cast out of God’s Presence, so they are aware of the Truth, but Satan is the father of lies.

This is why they could recognize Jesus, Son of God when they were in His Presence. Also if you notice when Adam and Eve were answering the Voice of the Lord after they ate of the tree, they were permitted to answer for themselves but there was no question directed to the serpent nor was there opportunity for him to answer for himself. So as far as I know Satan is pretty much stuck in utter darkness until further notice, which could be forever.

Yes for English speaking readers KJV is still the best, though yes it is the “King’s English” but it is verifiable by use of the Oxford dictionary when one wants to understand what such and such word meant when it was translated. Not like today where the meanings of words change daily.
 
 

 
  1. Philosophy Forum
  2. » Christianity
  3. » The End Of Repentance
Copyright © 2020 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.02 seconds on 08/14/2020 at 05:52:36