Isn't the Trinity Logically Impossible

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Fido
 
Reply Wed 3 Jun, 2009 11:38 am
@Axis Austin,
Asking if the trinity is logical is like asking if gas is liquid...One, religio means to tie back...It is held from the past... Reason is ratio, as out of time as a scale weighing matter without passion...Consider that names, labels are not arbetrary... They are a part of the form itself, how we remember the identity.. They are not meant to sow confusion, and if they did they would be no help at all..
 
William
 
Reply Fri 12 Jun, 2009 02:12 pm
@nameless,
nameless;66334 wrote:
But, there's nothing wrong with nonsense...
It truly takes all kinds.


Tell me about it. I deal with it every day. Thank you for reminding me.
William
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Sat 13 Jun, 2009 03:09 am
@William,
Fido;66396 wrote:
Asking if the trinity is logical is like asking if gas is liquid...One, religio means to tie back...It is held from the past... Reason is ratio, as out of time as a scale weighing matter without passion...Consider that names, labels are not arbetrary... They are a part of the form itself, how we remember the identity.. They are not meant to sow confusion, and if they did they would be no help at all..


Whoah, hold on a second. I think we need to double check our Latin.

religio - Wiktionary

The Latin ligare means to "bind, connect".

Religare is the Latin for 'to tie fast', apparently.
 
Fido
 
Reply Sat 13 Jun, 2009 08:34 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas;68730 wrote:
Whoah, hold on a second. I think we need to double check our Latin.

religio - Wiktionary

The Latin ligare means to "bind, connect".

Religare is the Latin for 'to tie fast', apparently.

Okay...I have a great big pile of dictionaries, and I am certain I gave you the definition I read...Now the challenge, to find it...
 
jchai6
 
Reply Tue 11 Aug, 2009 05:21 am
@de budding,
Quote:
And the idea that God is All loving, All knowing and All powerful I find a nonsense. In regards to suffering: If God is All loving he would not allow us to suffer, so it is said the world is just like that, its out of his hands, then what of his All knowingness? He would have seen that coming a mile off, and what kind of All powerful being can not rectify such a silly little error like the invention of suffering?

I think it is blindingly obvious as well that all God's Omni-essence is just the projection of human values/desire.

Any ways, I have never seen any direct sense in the idea of the Holy Trinity either, religion worked for me until I was like 10, then when people (clergy & bible club)began to get 'clever', trying to interpret what I had assumed to be fables and myths as philosophically profound reality, I was confused and turned off. Christianity only ever worked for me as abstract & symbolic fables.


Hi dan, what you say has its merits and i respect your opinion. But i would like to share mine as well.

How i see this god thing is that god gives us the choice to do anything, and it is our choices and the choices of people around us that doom us to suffering. I know you've probably heard the adam and eve story a buttload of times, but god gave them a choice, to obey him, or to disobey. Now it wasn't like god was starving them or anything, adam and eve had everything they needed, but human greed and curiosity drove them to disobey.
Of course, you would say that why doesn't god just fix up this horrid mess of a world?
then why doesn't god just create a bunch of robots programmed to love him/her/whatever and not disobey? I reckon the real beauty of this christianity thing is that we are free to choose what to believe, that we are not just programmed to believe.

SOme countries and societies brainwash kids into believing a certain religion. This is the very concept that i believe god is working agaisn't. i believe god doesn't want people to just believe, but to know why they believe.

so it really boils down to this, would you rather have a soul and free will (and have this screwed up world), or an emotionless perfect mind and a perfect world (and be a robot).

its sort of like the movie 'demolition man'. for those who haven't watched it, its worth a watch.
 
Fido
 
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 09:30 pm
@jchai6,
jchai6;82485 wrote:
Hi dan, what you say has its merits and i respect your opinion. But i would like to share mine as well.

How i see this god thing is that god gives us the choice to do anything, and it is our choices and the choices of people around us that doom us to suffering. I know you've probably heard the adam and eve story a buttload of times, but god gave them a choice, to obey him, or to disobey. Now it wasn't like god was starving them or anything, adam and eve had everything they needed, but human greed and curiosity drove them to disobey.
Of course, you would say that why doesn't god just fix up this horrid mess of a world?
then why doesn't god just create a bunch of robots programmed to love him/her/whatever and not disobey? I reckon the real beauty of this christianity thing is that we are free to choose what to believe, that we are not just programmed to believe.

SOme countries and societies brainwash kids into believing a certain religion. This is the very concept that i believe god is working agaisn't. i believe god doesn't want people to just believe, but to know why they believe.

so it really boils down to this, would you rather have a soul and free will (and have this screwed up world), or an emotionless perfect mind and a perfect world (and be a robot).

its sort of like the movie 'demolition man'. for those who haven't watched it, its worth a watch.

That apple business was a rigged game... We were put in the way of knowledge... Can any one accept that God could not know what was happening??? Sure, but only if one could reach heaven by way of a ladder...People want to blame the pursuit of knowledge for evil... In fact, it is ignorance which is always the cause of evil... All that we cannot change about nature we endure with equanimity...The horrors we endure with such pain from the hands of our fellow human beings is only tragic and unbearable because we believe we can change it, or could if we knew how...Understanding the role of ignorance in the whole affair, we should be able to see that education is our most difficult task...Put another way, Knowledge is culture, but we seek a mono culture in all things...We do not like the knowledge that culture is because the first thing it teaches is that blood is thicker than water, and that ones own people are always right...So we break down the bonds of culture only to find that we are all victims who are not criminals...Knowledge is not our problem, but the desire of ingnorance for activity is a possitive curse for humanity... The wise know, and the ignorant do... We had less pain when all of humanity was separated by culture...Now we are divided no less, but without the cultural understanding of life required to make peace...
 
prothero
 
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 09:34 pm
@Axis Austin,
If there is true freedom then there will be true risk.
Without freedom there can be no true creativity, meaning or novelty.
Would you want a world of puppets?, robots? or free creatures?
Which world would you choose? Which would you create?

As for the trinity, this probably will not help but
ice,water and steam are three manifiestations of the same substance H20.
In fact the universe is full of novel presenatations of the same fundamental substance.
 
hammersklavier
 
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 07:22 am
@Axis Austin,
The Trinity is more a tool of reflection than anything else.

Something else I find interesting (being as a side-hobby a writer) is how complex human psychology is. Humans are motivated by motives ranging anywhere from altruism to self-preservation, from love to jealousy, from humility to vainglory, and oftentimes with a bunch of these motivations motivating a single action. Now tell me if that oughtn't be logically impossible? That our rationales should always be pure reason? But yet here we are, blundering along along the edges of logic. So why would God have to be logically coherent? By our own theologians' admission, He is ineffable. Why can't he follow a logic that's different from ours? Why can't He be the Creator, Savior, Destroyer, Inspirer, and what-have-you all packed into one? We sure are, and we're supposed to be in His image!

I maintain that the Trinity is more a mode of the perception of God than an actual reflection of God's actual existence. The Trinity merely binds together the three most established ways of knowing God. There may be more. Thus it is a window to Him--but nothing more--and it's impossible to evaluate the logic of a system without understanding that system in its completeness.
 
Johnny Fresh
 
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 06:14 pm
@Axis Austin,
Maybe they are not "WHOLLY SEPARATE" rather 3 different interconnected things with slight physical boundaries between them. Remember that Jesus and God are both considered God.
 
Fido
 
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 06:25 am
@Axis Austin,
John Fresh:
Take Occam's razor to it... Or as another cleric said it: Nature is not abundant in superfluities...

---------- Post added 10-22-2009 at 08:27 AM ----------

hammersklavier;83570 wrote:
The Trinity is more a tool of reflection than anything else.

Something else I find interesting (being as a side-hobby a writer) is how complex human psychology is. Humans are motivated by motives ranging anywhere from altruism to self-preservation, from love to jealousy, from humility to vainglory, and oftentimes with a bunch of these motivations motivating a single action. Now tell me if that oughtn't be logically impossible? That our rationales should always be pure reason? But yet here we are, blundering along along the edges of logic. So why would God have to be logically coherent? By our own theologians' admission, He is ineffable. Why can't he follow a logic that's different from ours? Why can't He be the Creator, Savior, Destroyer, Inspirer, and what-have-you all packed into one? We sure are, and we're supposed to be in His image!

I maintain that the Trinity is more a mode of the perception of God than an actual reflection of God's actual existence. The Trinity merely binds together the three most established ways of knowing God. There may be more. Thus it is a window to Him--but nothing more--and it's impossible to evaluate the logic of a system without understanding that system in its completeness.

It is a measure of social control since it mirrors to some extent the division of society as it existed... As always, if you can demand that people accept mysteries presented as fact they are hooked, and will never again have a free thought...
 
Lithe Oleander
 
Reply Fri 11 Dec, 2009 08:00 pm
@Axis Austin,
Axis Austin;41618 wrote:
But isn't the idea of the Holy Trinity, the idea that God is both WHOLLY one and WHOLLY separate, logically impossible?:perplexed:


Water can exist as three states, but it's still water

A proton or neutron is one particle, but both are made up of three quarks.

Truth is, it's much much MUCH more easier to understand rocket science than it is to understand the Trinity
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Fri 11 Dec, 2009 08:04 pm
@Axis Austin,
Has anyone here read Carl Jung on the Trinity? He suggests that the Trinity is a Quaternity with a piece broken off, this piece being the Devil or God's evil side.

For me, it's all sublime myth. But this is not to disrespect believers.
 
Fido
 
Reply Fri 11 Dec, 2009 11:05 pm
@Axis Austin,
The God of the old testament was evil enough...Allah the merciful is pretty wicked to...If everyone in your neighborhood is a bad asss you better hope your dad is a mudderfudder...Hard reality makes for a hard God; but you still want to be on his good side...Those who fear God never fear death...
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Fri 11 Dec, 2009 11:08 pm
@Axis Austin,
The War-God (who forbids a census of fighting strength) becomes the God of love for the rotting Roman Empire....
 
Fido
 
Reply Fri 11 Dec, 2009 11:13 pm
@Axis Austin,
As people become human, so does God...Isn't that cool???...
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Fri 11 Dec, 2009 11:19 pm
@Axis Austin,
It is indeed. As people put the sword way, apparently God does to -- this sword being Satan.

Is the Father the inscrutable creator? Is the one this same Father in human flesh, fitted into our earthly circumstance, a paragon?

Is the Holy Ghost the spirit the faithful share, or rather the communal state of feeling like Christ: God in the flesh.

Christ in relation to the Law was Satan. And Satan in his revolutionary aspect, rebelling against God, was Christlike. Both seem to incarnate the myth of the rebel.
 
xris
 
Reply Sat 12 Dec, 2009 06:03 am
@Reconstructo,
The devil is the true nature of the universe,uncompromising and ruthless in its pursuit. We invent gods to give us comfort in our darkness. We invent ethics to protect us from our own natural instincts. We try to create balance by inventing trilogies. The trinity is about the invention of balance.
 
Fido
 
Reply Sat 12 Dec, 2009 06:23 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;110442 wrote:
It is indeed. As people put the sword way, apparently God does to -- this sword being Satan.

Is the Father the inscrutable creator? Is the one this same Father in human flesh, fitted into our earthly circumstance, a paragon?

Is the Holy Ghost the spirit the faithful share, or rather the communal state of feeling like Christ: God in the flesh.

Christ in relation to the Law was Satan. And Satan in his revolutionary aspect, rebelling against God, was Christlike. Both seem to incarnate the myth of the rebel.

You forgot to raise your hand... As one fellow has pointed out, people used to be able to reach heaven with a ladder or a tower or a beanstalk...If God was once physically more present in the lives of people he was also more evil... The earliest conceptions of God do not distinguish him from people as better or worse; but only more powerful, as nature itself...The Genesis talks of a multitude of gods, and one of the children of Israel was detained because his wife stole her houshold gods... Even later, Satan and God are shown hanging together like drinking buddies, tossing the dice on the fate of a single man...There is no way around the fact that the God of Genesis in not much like the God of Jesus or some of the prophets...The trinity seems to say that God did not change, but only changed his form...The fact is that people had changed, and were more likely to bring reason to bear on God...A single God is more logical than multitude, but the best arguments against the old formal God was economy... People could not afford their God, and the burden of supporting a priestly class who for money would pass by an injured man without helping..People were excusing themselves from the support of their parents because they were trying to support their religion...It did not need support...It did not need money... Where a unified people might have offered a reasonable defense against Rome, they were divided... The priests, and the single city of Jersalem had emense wealth, but the people were so poor they would suit each other over their tunics...Because the society was seen as having the sanction and blessing of God, supported by the whole form of law, no one, nor any group could over turn it...Just as today, and in Old England, the church was part of their constitution, a leg to it, and a prop...People enthralled by their beliefs are victims, and they often take their whole societies into slavery rather than challenge their beliefs...The trinity very much reflected the politics of the time, but for the West, it was the best alternative to killing off the old God completely because with the old God they were able to usurp his authority..

---------- Post added 12-12-2009 at 07:36 AM ----------

xris;110493 wrote:
The devil is the true nature of the universe,uncompromising and ruthless in its pursuit. We invent gods to give us comfort in our darkness. We invent ethics to protect us from our own natural instincts. We try to create balance by inventing trilogies. The trinity is about the invention of balance.

Not exactly...Ones God is ones community...It used to be that if a place was taken, its God was carted off...The Pantheon served the purpose of housing the God's Rome had captured... God is synonymous with ethics...People did not sacrifice to their Gods because they were uniformly good, but because they were powerful and dangerous, and because each community craved the power of God while fearing his caprices...
No one invents ethics any more than they create God... Consider, that all our moral forms, and even our self conceptions are spiritual in nature...People give the spiritual nature of children a form, and not a being... We call it magic, but we don't invent it...And no one can completely escape it...Even rational people say good luck or God bless you...We wall off our irrationality in the conduct of our modern lives, but it is there, always in play...
 
Fido
 
Reply Sat 12 Dec, 2009 10:59 am
@Axis Austin,
As God has grown good, mankind has become evil...As God has become moral people have become immoral...How can we love God??? We are devils...
 
xris
 
Reply Sat 12 Dec, 2009 11:58 am
@Fido,
The invented gods have the appearance of benevolence till they are examined. They serve to comfort us and keep the boggy man from the door. We invented ethics like we invented these gods. God is here to serve our fear of death. As he grows less benevolent we try to attain a more moral value to our lives without the fear of eternal retribution. We cant blame him or praise him, for he is our invention.

The trinity is part and parcel of that invention. We attempt at restructuring the concepts to hide our silly inventions.
 
 

 
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