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Thu 15 Jan, 2009 12:47 am
The story of Suba an African girl
The following trial and judgment is based on the teachings of the world's leading clergymen and theologians.
I present this for the forum to resionalise
JUDGEMENT DAY
A theoretical Judgment Day for a young African girl named Suba, who died at age seventeen while giving birth to her first child:
god: What do you have to say for yourself, Suba?
Suba: I'm sorry, your holiness, I am frightened and I don't understand the question.
god: There is nothing to be frightened of, my child. I won't hurt you [yet]. Tell me about your life.
Suba: I was born number three of seven children. My mother and father loved us very much. They taught us many things like, food getting, fire cooking, clothes making, basket making, the rules of our tribe, and how to worship the great maker.
god: That would be me. I am the Great Maker. Tell me about that. How did you worship me?
Suba: Well, we were told to treat everyone in the tribe real good. That is what the great maker wanted all of us to do -- be real good to all people. We were told that the great maker would then be real good to us. Life was pretty good except when we didn't have much food to eat, and when a bad tribe from far away came and burned our village and killed many of our people.
god: Did you hate those bad men who killed your people?
Suba: Yes, your holiness, of course we hated them.
god: Do you know that it is a sin to hate?
Suba: What is a sin?
god: Something bad.
Suba: I knew it was bad to sass back to my Mother and Father. I was but seven years old when my village was burned. I don't think I hate them anymore. All I ever wanted was a place to live in peace with enough food to eat, and to raise my baby to be a fine woman. Is that bad, your holiness?
god: You mean to tell me you have never done anything bad that you knew was bad?
Suba: Yes I did, your holiness, many times. And my mother would hit my bottom with a stick if she saw me do something bad. But when I was having my baby, it hurt a hundred times more than when mother hit me with a stick. And that's the last thing I remember until being brought here.
god: You know, Suba, I had a son.
Suba: I'll bet you were real proud of him.
god: No one will ever know how much. All his life, he taught people to love each other and to forgive each other for being bad, and even to love their enemies.
Suba: He sounds like a nice man.
god: Yes he was. But when he was just a young man, the worshippers of the great maker banded together and killed my son by nailing him to a tree.
Suba: Oh, god! I am so sorry. I know you must miss him a lot.
god: No, child. He's alive with me. I brought him back to life only three days after they killed him. He is now the savior of all people on earth.
Suba: We never heard of your son where I live in Africa. I so wish that your son could have saved my tribe from those bad people when I was a little girl.
god: My son can save people even if they are dead.
Suba: Wow! That sounds too good to be true. How does you son actually save all people?
god: He doesn't save all people.
Suba: But your holiness, you said he is the savior of all the people on earth.
god: Yes, my child. My son is the savior of all people; it's just that he doesn't actually save all people.
Suba: I don't understand "he is, but he isn't." If I would have ever said something as mixed up as that to my Momma, she would have hit me with a stick.
god: Let me explain: My son died such a bad death to pay for all the bad things that bad people do. Now anyone who believes my son did a good thing for them, will not be hurt for the bad things they did, but will live for ever. I have written all these rules in a book called the bible. It says in the bible that what you get for doing bad is death. But if any one likes my son's sacrifice for their bad life, I will give them a free gift of life.
Suba: Oh god! I hardly know what to say. You mean if I believe in your son who did a good thing for me, even though I have often been bad, that you will give me a life that never ends?
god: No child. Not you. You don't understand the higher scholarship of Christian theology. You see, you don't qualify to be saved.
Suba: What is "c h r i s t i a n t h e o l o g y?"
god: It's too confusing, Child, not even theologians know what it is.
Suba: Why don't I "qualify?" What must I do to "qualify?"
god: You don't have to do anything to qualify. Salvation is by grace. That means it's a free gift
Suba: Then why don't I qualify, your holiness?
god: Well, what I mean is you can't qualify for salvation, but you can be disqualified by not qualifying for the qualification that is not required, seeing salvation is free by grace. Or, ah, something like that.
Suba: Do you reckon, your holiness, one of those theologians might be able to explain that a litter better for me?
god: No, my child, besides, it is too late for you to be saved.
Suba: But, your holiness, why is it too late?
god: Because you didn't accept my son and his sacrifice before you died giving birth.
Suba: But, your holiness, I didn't know of your son and his sacrifice before I died.
god: Tough child. I can't be bothered with all the complicated details of trying to get everybody saved. Besides, most of the highest educated theologians in the world clearly teach that if one dies not knowing of my son's sacrifice for them, it is too late to ever be saved.
Suba: You mean my punishment for being bad will not be taken away by your son and I will be given death for ever?
god: Not exactly, child. I know my bible says death, but my theologians thought that death was too good for bad people, so they changed it to a never-ending life of torture in fire. And it will hurt hundreds and hundreds and countless billions of times more than when you died giving birth. I will never stop burning your flesh, Suba, not even for a second, and, of course, your baby daughter will be burning right by your side. Actually most of Africa will be burning with you. Billions and billions. Just burning and burning. Billions and bill ... Excuse me, Suba, go ahead.
Suba: But god, your holiness, why? Why?
god: Look child, as one of my leading theologians recently suggested, it is not incumbent upon me to save everyone. Indeed it is not incumbent upon me to save anyone. Besides you are my enemy and I hate you. I know it doesn't sound fair child, but you have to understand, these great theologians of the world have made these rules, and so my hands are tied.
Suba: But god, I don't hate you.
god: Now don't try to lay a guilt trip on me child, I said I hate you, you're my enemy, and that's final.
Suba: But your holiness, you said your son taught everyone to love their enemies?
GOD: ANGELS OF THE GUARD, "THIS GIRL IS GETTING ON MY NERVES". "THROW HER INTO THE FIRES OF HELL TO BURN SCREAM IN HORROR, DESOLATION, AND LONELINESS FOR EVER. AND EVER AND EVER, WITH NO END TO HER INFINITE TORMENT
god: Next Who are we now going to confine to everlasting torment?
This is what extreme fundamental Christian believe
No grey only black and white
"Infinite eternal punishment for a finite trancgession. I am not stating that all fundamentalist believe this but I have fundamentalist Christian friends that do.
Trying to dialogue and rationalise this is like communicating with a lamp post"
Regards
Alan
@Alan McDougall,
[QUOTE]
"Infinite eternal punishment for a finite trancgession. I am not stating that all fundamentalist believe this but I have fundamentalist Christian friends that do.
Trying to dialogue and rationalise this is like communicating with a lamp post"
[/QUOTE]
And I don't see how you can expect a better response from fundamentalists here either.
Listen, I am a firm believer in two things. One, we are judged by what we believe. Effectively, God gives us what we ask for. So anyone who believes that the above story is an example of how God will judge the dead, will be judged in like manner. In such a case, there's absolutely no hope for salvation.
Two, we are not saved by our faith, we are saved through Christ's faith. Any theologian who says that it is not incumbent upon God to save anyone is a liar and a fool. Moreover, he shows that he is not God's child. Since when is it not a father's responsibility to save his own child? If I were to let my son die in a fire, and not even try to do anything to save him, any man upon this earth would condemn me. And rightfully so. But if God lets his children go to an eternal fire it's all well and good? Because hey, he's God! What hypocrites.
@Solace,
What is the purpose of hell ? what is the purpose of belief ? what does it fulfill ?
@xris,
xris wrote:What is the purpose of hell ? what is the purpose of belief ? what does it fulfill ?
(Bear in mind as I have stated before, Heaven and Hell are simply states of mind, states of being. Hell is not the Lake of Fire, the Bible makes a clear distinction. Only popular notions of Hell make it fire and brimstone. That being said...)
Hell hath no purpose; and such is the lot of all who are caught in it. To be without purpose is to be without comfort. Belief is purpose within itself; that I am comforted by my belief. What is fulfilled is Heaven; that I have found purpose, or perhaps, better stated, that purpose has found me.
@Solace,
Solace wrote:(Bear in mind as I have stated before, Heaven and Hell are simply states of mind, states of being. Hell is not the Lake of Fire, the Bible makes a clear distinction. Only popular notions of Hell make it fire and brimstone. That being said...)
Hell hath no purpose; and such is the lot of all who are caught in it. To be without purpose is to be without comfort. Belief is purpose within itself; that I am comforted by my belief. What is fulfilled is Heaven; that I have found purpose, or perhaps, better stated, that purpose has found me.
So if i dont need or see that belief is it a sin .I am happier without my belief because it never gives those constant nagging doubts.
@Alan McDougall,
Solace,
If God burned and tormented people forever and forever or of no faith like Suba sinners or those who sin against their own conscious then "to me" 'he is worse than a depraved psychopath.
But he is God I love him and trust him to do what is just and "right to him" I see a tiny minute infinitesimal part of this huge war of good and evil and God sees it all and he is the captain of the ship I travel in and I know he will navigate me and my beloved to that eternal shores of heaven
But I still dislike intensely the fundamentalist belief, I hate in when I hear these screaming TV evangelist, shouting at the TV and at the world. That God will do this, do that, will not do that, cannot do this. God told me this God told me that. etc etc do you get my point
To little tiny finite me I leave it to God to do what he does and trust him in the process
Jesus said that those deserving of punishment would not all get the same punishment He said some will be beaten with few and light stripes and other with many stripes
So there are degrees of punishment as there are degrees of reward In the beatitudes he said "blessed are you when men shall revile you and persecute for my name sake for "great will your reward be in heaven". Analysing this statement "Great is your reward, makes it clear that there are greater and lesser rewards in heaven etc
I have also thought long and hard about the awful eternal separation from God and the unspeakable pain and horror of an every lasting hell, and it just blows my mind
Would I put even the most evil of person there, No I would not to me it would serve no purpose I would just annihilate them. But I am not God and God will do what he wants to do, without my permission
The Bible stated that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Most say fear is the wrong word but I wonder?
@Alan McDougall,
Quote:
The Bible stated that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.
The beginning of wisdom, Alan, not the end of it.
There is no war of good and evil. That's a bunch of foolishness propigated to attribute power to Satan. Men who do not trust God will always seek a way to undermine his authority. But all that they undermine is the foundations of their own faith. Thus their temple falls.
Almost as silly is the idea of rewards in Heaven. What reward could I possibly receive that will mean anything when put beside eternal salvation? And that was given to me freely! Gee thanks God for this reward that I earned, but hey look, it kinda sucks when compared to the same free gift that you gave to everybody else here! Christ spoke of Heavenly rewards for one reason, to draw out the greedy to show themselves for what they truly are. It's not enough to covet the things of this life, but now we should also covet the things of the hereafter?
As for the rest, Alan, I should think that I have made it quite clear that my view of Heaven and Hell and those things to come is quite different from the popularly held Christian views.
@xris,
xris wrote:So if i dont need or see that belief is it a sin .I am happier without my belief because it never gives those constant nagging doubts.
A sin? I may be the wrong person to talk to about sin. But I'll give my take... If you don't feel the need to believe something, how can your lack of a feeling possibly be a sin? A feeling or need, or the lack thereof, is not something within your control.
As for the part about doubts, xris, please don't take this the wrong way, but you strike me as a fellow who is full of doubts. But that isn't a bad thing. It is doubt that leads to better understanding.
@Solace,
Solace wrote:A sin? I may be the wrong person to talk to about sin. But I'll give my take... If you don't feel the need to believe something, how can your lack of a feeling possibly be a sin? A feeling or need, or the lack thereof, is not something within your control.
As for the part about doubts, xris, please don't take this the wrong way, but you strike me as a fellow who is full of doubts. But that isn't a bad thing. It is doubt that leads to better understanding.
I find as soon as i say i believe, something comes along to change my belief..so i keep an open mind and never say never.At the moment i cant see any god but i do believe there could be a soul and other dimensions that this soul could return to, but im not going to hold my breath.
@Alan McDougall,
What about SOLACE what is her eiternal destiny?
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall wrote:What about SOLACE what is her eiternal destiny?
There are different schools of thought on it Alan. One traditional belief is that the dead who have not had the chance to convert, to accept Christ as their saviour, will be given the chance to do so after Christ returns. Personally, I don't hold to this belief at all. First, because I don't go in for the traditional idea of Christ's return. Second, because it seems like something of an unfair advantage, (if one believes in the nonsense of self-determined salvation, that is,) since if they've lived before and are being given a second chance, well then they know already that God is real and so on, so why wouldn't they accept it? Third, because God knows who his children are; he doesn't need them to pass some test to prove it.
Suba may very well be a child of God, (only God knows for sure,) in which case God would welcome her with open arms. He would not judge her, he would not hold her ignorance against her, and he most certainly would not toss her in a fire.
Now, if you were to ask me what I believe happens to the souls of those who are not his children, then, well, I'd have to admit that I'm not really sure. Personally I think that their beliefs will be weighed. If, by their own beliefs, they have lived a worthy life then they will be spared damnation. If not, then well, I don't think it's going to be too good for them at all. Which is why I would say to anybody that the most important thing in life is to know what you believe and to live by it. At least, in the end, know that you were true to yourself and to your beliefs. If that's not good enough for God then he is expecting too much of you. So, personally, I think it will be good enough for him.
@Solace,
Whats this "its not going to be too good for them" is this your invention or is it the scriptures you base your understanding on . I am at a loss to know what christianity is , is it the scriptures or a theological interpretation. Is the bible evolving as the centuries progress ? if so when is it going to be rewritten ? and how do we get gods approval for this revised edition ?
@xris,
I can't answer your questions about Christianity, xris, because I'm not a Christian. I'm not going to make any assumptions about the fate of those people who, by their own beliefs, are unworthy. Even if God leaves them alone, I should think that being considered worthless, even by their own beliefs, means that its not going to be good for them. Would such people even want to go on existing believing that they are worthless?
@Solace,
Solace wrote:I can't answer your questions about Christianity, xris, because I'm not a Christian. I'm not going to make any assumptions about the fate of those people who, by their own beliefs, are unworthy. Even if God leaves them alone, I should think that being considered worthless, even by their own beliefs, means that its not going to be good for them. Would such people even want to go on existing believing that they are worthless?
Doing another wrong and not coming to understand the consequences, should if we consider a heaven be where we are made to consider these errors and by doing so we punish ourselves .If anything is beieved dishonestly or not believed honestly is in my opinion a different matter all together.Ide rather say harming others is the sin not having a certain reason to make believe or not to believe harms no one.
@Alan McDougall,
God is quick to mercy slow to anger and his mercy endures forever,
I believe and trust that statement from the bible
@Alan McDougall,
Alan, I've imagined the type of story you included many times and I have a difficult time seeing how God could send her to Hell. Personally, I believe that those who have not received the word of God will get that chance. Further, that anybody should suffer such an atrocious fate makes God seem like a monster.
However, the Bible does say that it is only through belief in the son that we may be lead to the father (and thus to eternal salvation). Further, it seems pretty clear that some people, no matter how many chances they'd receive, would freely choose to reject God forever. It's as C.S. Lewis said, "the gates of hell are locked from the inside".
@Alan McDougall,
Axis Austin
Quote:Alan, I've imagined the type of story you included many times and I have a difficult time seeing how God could send her to Hell. Personally, I believe that those who have not received the word of God will get that chance. Further, that anybody should suffer such an atrocious fate makes God seem like a monster
.
God will decidely not send this little girl Suba to hell or judge her. "Jesus said Blessed are the little children for of such is the kingdom of heaven"
But there is a hell waiting for the likes of Hitler, would you or anyone like to die in Hitlers condition and then have to face and explain yourself to a Holy Righteous GOD?
He was a murderer of little children , the ultimate sin against God
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