Can we know that something doesn't exist?

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Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 11:37 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;137104 wrote:
So far as I can tell you have not replied to the argumennt at all. For you have neither commented on the premises, nor on the validity of the argument. Of course, your interest in the argument has nothing to do with whether it is an argument which illustrates how a an event can be shown to be philosophically impossible. If you let me know what sort of argument interests you, I will try to come up with that kind of argument. But any argument with is an example of proving that a particular event is physically impossible would meet the requirement. The DN model of explanation implies that an event which cannot be deduced from the relevant laws of nature, together with the current initial conditions is physically impossible. That should be obvious.

I hope this helps.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 11:44 pm
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;137106 wrote:
A general theory of physical possibility.No it wouldn't, it would only work if you were offering a counter example.The thesis concerns laws of science, not laws of nature, presumably even necessitarian laws ontologists dont hold that laws of science are ontologically real entities with physically prescriptive power. And the thesis concerns the logic of explanations, so it is concerned with what is logically entailed by laws of science, ie the observation to be explained. In short, the thesis demands that an explanation be a logical argument with the inverted form of a prediction. There is no implication to the effect that it's impossible for the prediction to fail, and thus for the explanation to be falsified.



The general theory of physical impossibility is an implication of the DN model. It is physically impossible for an event to occur unless it can be deduced on the lines of the DN model.

As far as I know, the DN model makes no distinction between laws of science, and laws of nature. It, of course, simply assumes that the former are representations of the latter.

---------- Post added 03-07-2010 at 12:47 AM ----------

Fil. Albuquerque;137107 wrote:


It was physically impossible in 1780 for Andorra to win a war with Prussia and Russia in alliance.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 11:48 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;137109 wrote:
The general theory of physical impossibility is an implication of the DN model. It is physically impossible for an event to occur unless it can be deduced on the lines of the DN model.

As far as I know, the DN model makes no distinction between laws of science, and laws of nature. It, of course, simply assumes that the former are representations of the latter.


can you deduce the opposite, that china would win a war on Luxembourg from what you have just said ?
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 11:50 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;137109 wrote:
The general theory of physical impossibility is an implication of the DN model. It is physically impossible for an event to occur unless it can be deduced on the lines of the DN model.
If that's the case, then any physical fact for which there is no scientific explanation would be impossible, in other words, there is no fact for which science can not, in principle, provide an explanation. But there are irreducibly empirical facts, facts for which no explanation is, even in principle, possible, for example, the value of the universal gravitational constant. Or do facts have exemption?
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 11:55 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;137109 wrote:
It was physically impossible in 1780 for Andorra to win a war with Prussia and Russia in alliance.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 12:01 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;137114 wrote:


What causal link would you like?
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 12:03 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;137112 wrote:
If that's the case, then any physical fact for which there is no scientific explanation would be impossible, in other words, there is no fact for which science can not, in principle, provide an explanation. But there are irreducibly empirical facts, facts for which no explanation is, even in principle, possible, for example, the value of the universal gravitational constant. Or do facts have exemption?


...the description of a fact has limits in terms of what it truly addresses in a question...so, one thing is the fact whatever it might be, and quite another is your question regarding that fact...

---------- Post added 03-07-2010 at 01:05 AM ----------

kennethamy;137115 wrote:
What causal link would you like?


...one that clearly proves the physical impossibility of A winning a war at B...
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 12:07 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;137109 wrote:
The general theory of physical impossibility is an implication of the DN model. It is physically impossible for an event to occur unless it can be deduced on the lines of the DN model.
About events; there's the problem of the NP-completeness problem for events that are easily explained but for which there is no, better than brute force, predictive algorithm. For example, the VDW method of horse racing selection is useless for selecting winners, but easily explains almost all winners after the event.

---------- Post added 03-07-2010 at 03:08 PM ----------

Fil. Albuquerque;137116 wrote:
one thing is the fact whatever it might be, and quite another is your question regarding that fact
What do you mean?
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 12:15 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;137118 wrote:
What do you mean?


...that there is a difference between an event and the description and problematization of that event...You ask X, of Y...both fail to refer completely...
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 12:17 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;137120 wrote:
...that there is a difference between an event and the description and problematization of that event...You ask X, of Y...both fail to refer completely...
But I'm specifically talking about events and facts in relation to the deductive-nomological theory of explanation.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 12:25 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;137121 wrote:
But I'm specifically talking about events and facts in relation to the deductive-nomological theory of explanation.


...they may or may not fit depending on interpretation on both, what is the model exactly asking and what does the problem description refers to...both are circunscript to the limits of language, and none circumscribes the event itself...
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 12:28 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;137123 wrote:
...they may or may not fit depending on interpretation on both, what is the model exactly asking and what does the problem description refers to...both are circunscript to the limits of language, and none circumscribes the event itself...
If you're saying that the deductive-nomological theory of explanation is false, then I guess you won't accept it as the basis of a general theory of physical possibility.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 12:34 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;137126 wrote:
If you're saying that the deductive-nomological theory of explanation is false, then I guess you won't accept it as the basis of a general theory of physical possibility.


Can Cause be ultimately explained ? Why does A causes B...and even the how, can it be explained without a full Theory of Everything ? Can it be explained without an ultimate cause ? and what is exactly we are asking of X ?

And no, I still can accept it but within limits...just not as an absolute justification...the model, every model, addresses the problematization of an event but not the event itself...so it may be valid in terms of what one accepts it can possibly address...

---------- Post added 03-07-2010 at 02:00 AM ----------

The question is not what but how much are you asking of something ?
...its True if it fits the how much...:cool:
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 06:17 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;137116 wrote:
...the description of a fact has limits in terms of what it truly addresses in a question...so, one thing is the fact whatever it might be, and quite another is your question regarding that fact...

---------- Post added 03-07-2010 at 01:05 AM ----------



...one that clearly proves the physical impossibility of A winning a war at B...


I thought I gave such a proof. Another would be that if would be phyically impossible for ice to form at a termperature of 70 degrees since that temperature could not affect the molecules of the water so as for the water to freeze. Isn't that a proof that freezing at 70 degrees is impossible? What is missing (except detail) from that proof?
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 08:37 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;137165 wrote:
I thought I gave such a proof. Another would be that if would be phyically impossible for ice to form at a termperature of 70 degrees since that temperature could not affect the molecules of the water so as for the water to freeze. Isn't that a proof that freezing at 70 degrees is impossible? What is missing (except detail) from that proof?


...What is the barometric pressure that you are referring to ?
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 10:44 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;137165 wrote:
Another would be that if would be phyically impossible for ice to form at a termperature of 70 degrees since that temperature could not affect the molecules of the water so as for the water to freeze. Isn't that a proof that freezing at 70 degrees is impossible? What is missing (except detail) from that proof?


What's missing is proof of the claim in bold. Your proof that it's physically impossible for water to freeze at 70 degrees rests on the unsupported claim of yet another physical impossibility.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 10:50 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;137217 wrote:
What's missing is proof of the claim in bold. Your proof that it's physically impossible for water to freeze at 70 degrees rests on the unsupported claim of yet another physical impossibility.


I thought we do have proof that water doesn't freeze at 70 degrees? How is that an unsupported claim?!
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 11:00 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;137217 wrote:
What's missing is proof of the claim in bold. Your proof that it's physically impossible for water to freeze at 70 degrees rests on the unsupported claim of yet another physical impossibility.


The fact that my explanation of why it is physically impossible for water to freeze at 70 degrees is not itself explained, does not mean that it did not explain what it explained. It may be that we are standing on a giant tortoise, which is standing on another giant tortoise, It fact, it happens that there are tortoises all the way down.

If I know that you went across the street to talk to a friend, but I don't know why you did it, why should that mean that I don't know why you went across the street. I certainly do know why. It was to talk to a friend.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 11:01 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;137219 wrote:
I thought we do have proof that water doesn't freeze at 70 degrees?


Doesn't or can't? Let's not make the mistake of saying, "I've never seen x therefore x is physically impossible." Just because you've never seen water freeze at 70 degrees doesn't mean it's physically impossible.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 11:07 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;137225 wrote:
Doesn't or can't? Let's not make the mistake of saying, "I've never seen x therefore x is physically impossible." Just because you've never seen water freeze at 70 degrees doesn't mean it's physically impossible.


It's not just because I've never seen it. It's because water does not freeze at 70 degrees. It is because water molecules freezes at 32 degrees. Isn't it true that water molecules freeze at 32 degrees? And don't you think scientists would say it is impossible for water to freeze at 70 degrees, since water freezes at 32 degrees?

Perhaps this link will help you: Water
 
 

 
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