Wishful Thinking

@Reconstructo,

Reconstructo;126347 wrote:

Is it wishful thinking to think that humans are capable of thinking that isn't wishful?

Is all thinking wishful? Yes, I think so. What is wrong with this? Thinking is always directed toward some wished for goal even if it gets lost in the maze, even when it finds itself at a dead end and has to turn around and backtrack to find it's way again.

Wishful thinking that stops being wishful becomes action.

@Reconstructo,

If I think of something I don't want to happen is that wishful?

@Dave Allen,

Dave Allen;126367 wrote:

If I think of something I don't want to happen is that wishful?

No, masochistic.

---------- Post added 02-09-2010 at 06:29 AM ----------

Reconstructo;126347 wrote:

Is it wishful thinking to think that humans are capable of thinking that isn't wishful?

So the evidence tells us.

@Deckard,

Deckard;126349 wrote:

Is all thinking wishful? Yes, I think so. What is wrong with this? Thinking is always directed toward some wished for goal even if it gets lost in the maze, even when it finds itself at a dead end and has to turn around and backtrack to find it's way again.

Wishful thinking that stops being wishful becomes action.

Please note that I didn't imply that there was anything wrong with this. If all thinking is wishful, and I wishfully think it is, then thinking and feeling are a unity.

But I also meant "wishful thinking" in the sense of "rationalization." Assuming this is so, how does this effect epistemology, which is itself a rationalization.

---------- Post added 02-12-2010 at 01:49 AM ----------

kennethamy;126368 wrote:

So the evidence tells us.

Evidence must be determined and interpreted, presumably by the wishful-thinking of humans.

---------- Post added 02-12-2010 at 01:50 AM ----------

Dave Allen;126367 wrote:

If I think of something I don't want to happen is that wishful?

Depends on one's notion of the self. In depth-psychology terms, yes. But this is deep water. Suffice it to say that we often think of what we don't want to happen the better to keep it from happening.

@Reconstructo,

Reconstructo;126347 wrote:

Is it wishful thinking to think that humans are capable of thinking that isn't wishful?

Is it wishful to think that I'm typing right now?

@Reconstructo,

Reconstructo;126347 wrote:

Is it wishful thinking to think that humans are capable of thinking that isn't wishful?

Can you rephrase the question? I don't understand the last half of the inquiry: "are capable of thinking that is not wishful". Did you mean, "Is it wishful thinking to think that humans are capable of thinking that which isn't wishful?"

@Reconstructo,

Wishful thinking is the formation of beliefs and making decisions according to what might be pleasing to imagine instead of by appealing to evidence or rationality.
Studies have consistently shown that holding all else equal, subjects will predict positive outcomes to be more likely than negative outcomes. See positive outcome bias.
Prominent examples of wishful thinking include:

Economist Irving Fisher said that "stock prices have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau" a few weeks before the Stock Market Crash of 1929, which was followed by the Great Depression.
President John F. Kennedy believed that, if overpowered by Cuban forces, the CIA-backed rebels could "escape destruction by melting into the countryside" in the Bay of Pigs Invasion.

(Wikipedia)

Do people always think wishfully? Obviously not. Do they do so sometimes? Yes.

End of story.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;128485 wrote:

Do people always think wishfully? Obviously not.

I don't think it's obvious. Make an argument, if you can. Or be persuasive.

@Reconstructo,

I think I'm gonna get an F on my test. I do not wish to get an F on my test. What is this thinking called?

@Quinn phil,

Quinn;128623 wrote:

I think I'm gonna get an F on my test. I do not wish to get an F on my test. What is this thinking called?

I see what you are going at, but this would be an oversimplification of wishful thinking. We also wish to survive and be considered sane. If you only wished for a good grade, and that was the extent of all your human wishes, your point would steer us away from the possibility of wishful thinking.

But you wish to be regarded as sane. You wish to survive and prosper. So you have to calculate the future somewhat accurately.

@Reconstructo,

Reconstructo;128620 wrote:

I don't think it's obvious. Make an argument, if you can. Or be persuasive.

This proposal wasn't directed towards me but I'll ask you again. Is it wishful to think that I'm typing right now?

@hue-man,

hue-man;128818 wrote:

This proposal wasn't directed towards me but I'll ask you again. Is it wishful to think that I'm typing right now?

I am inclined to say YES, but that might be wishful thinking. You don't seem to understand the point of this thread. Think it over for a moment. I know it's fun to play Captain Contradiction, but the position demands a recognition of what it is that you are trying to contradict.

I never said that all thinking was wishful. It's a good psychological-epistemological question, not a party game. Or if it's a party game it should be more entertaining.

@Reconstructo,

Reconstructo;128820 wrote:

I am inclined to say YES, but that might be wishful thinking. You don't seem to understand the point of this thread. Think it over for a moment. I know it's fun to play Captain Contradiction, but the position demands a recognition of what it is that you are trying to contradict.

I never said that all thinking was wishful. It's a good psychological-epistemological question, not a party game. Or if it's a party game it should be more entertaining.

I didn't say that you said that all thinking was wishful. You said that you don't think that it's obvious that people don't always think wishfully. You asked for an argument or persuasion. I asked you if it was wishful to think that I'm typing this right now. The obvious answer is no. Is it wishful for you to think that you're reading this right now? Obviously not.

@Reconstructo,

Reconstructo;126347 wrote:

Is it wishful thinking to think that humans are capable of thinking that isn't wishful?

What do you mean by wishful? Are you asking if the particular thoughts that come to consciousness in first place are possibly always related to emotions and instincts? Do you mean that thought is perhaps conditioned by biological imperatives? Do you mean that metaphysical views are possibly rationalizations?

Perhaps, Reconstructo, you should have phrased it differently. "Is reason ever not rationalization?" would have O.K.

@Reconstructo,

Reconstructo;128829 wrote:

What do you mean by wishful? Are you asking if the particular thoughts that come to consciousness in first place are possibly always related to emotions and instincts? Do you mean that thought is perhaps conditioned by biological imperatives? Do you mean that metaphysical views are possibly rationalizations?

Perhaps, Reconstructo, you should have phrased it differently. "Is reason ever not rationalization?" would have O.K.

Perhaps, Reconstructo, you could be more clear and specific instead of always asking questions in aphorisms. Biological imperative and emotional motivation are not synonymous with wishful thinking.

@hue-man,

hue-man;128832 wrote:

Perhaps, Reconstructo, you could be more clear and specific instead of always asking questions in aphorisms. Biological imperative and emotional motivation are not synonymous with wishful thinking.

Yes, I could have used a better phrase.

What do you think? Is reason rationalization? Is "reasonable" what we call the rationalizations that seem more prudent or noble? Mind you, I'm only asking about the possibility, not making an argument either way.

According to the DSM-IV rationalization occurs "when the individual deals with emotional conflict or internal or external stressors by concealing the true motivations for his or her own thoughts, actions, or feelings through the elaboration of reassuring or self serving but incorrect explanations."

How does one separate correct from incorrect explanations?

@Reconstructo,

Reconstructo;128836 wrote:

Yes, I could have used a better phrase.

What do you think? Is reason rationalization? Is "reasonable" what we call the rationalizations that seem more prudent or noble? Mind you, I'm only asking about the possibility, not making an argument either way.

According to the DSM-IV rationalization occurs "when the individual deals with emotional conflict or internal or external stressors by concealing the true motivations for his or her own thoughts, actions, or feelings through the elaboration of reassuring or self serving but incorrect explanations."

How does one separate correct from incorrect explanations?

I agree with the definition of rationalization but I have to say I don't recognize the authority of the DSM IV anymore than the authority of Vatican II. (little joke there)

@Deckard,

Deckard;128847 wrote:

I agree with the definition of rationalization but I have to say I don't recognize the authority of the DSM IV anymore than the authority of Vatican II. (little joke there)

I feel you on that. Both bluffs. Shrinks and popes. Poets in costumes collecting paper. (I like that piece of slang). It's like Aaron the Moor's last request.

@Reconstructo,

Reconstructo;128857 wrote:

I feel you on that. Both bluffs. Shrinks and popes. Poets in costumes collecting paper. (I like that piece of slang). It's like Aaron the Moor's last request.

I had to look it up. I'm not sure that Aaron the Moor's final soliloquy fits or else it is too harsh. I think both shrinks and popes mean well. But maybe I missed your point.

(This forum needs Shakespeare sub-forum! But where to put it??? This forum needs a Philosophy of Literature sub-forum with a Shakespeare sub-sub-forum!)

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