"What about time? As a simple variable, does it tend to be cause? Or effect?" quote
You tell me, it has never occured to me to consider time as cause or effect, if one were to consider it effect what then would be the cause. Wait, I remember a quote from the Upanishads, " I am death destroyer of worlds"-----this is time, perhaps time is a creator as well as a destroyer.
"What about my response to your post? Is it possible my response actually caused your very first post?" quote
Actually not as silly an idea as it might at first seem, it ain't solipsism!!
"When they say "simple variable," is that to distinguish it from complex variables. Might she say complex variables CANNOT be both cause and effect? Obvioulsy a continuum between simple and complex variables, but why that damn qualfier "simple?" quote
I believe the intent is to say the any variable can be both cause and effect.
"It's misleading because it suggests that circular causality is always in operation." quote
That is one area you might enlighten me upon, do you believe that causality is linear?
Billy: "Again, we're not talking about your lack of conviction as a relationalist (though it shows). These people have conviction, they are much farther down the continuum to a relational wv than you. On 10-14 you wrote: "you must draw a line somewhere." Of course. Systems therapists draw that line at the interpersonal level, not the biological or biochemical level. And I think you'll agree with this line. After all, you're not talking about our physiology or atoms feeling alienated. You're talking about PEOPLE." quote
I believe your working much to hard at being negative, how could an individual have problems if he does not have any relations to consider.
"Just your use of the phrase 'the problems of the individual' reveals that you are much less relational than the systems therapists, who would consider that colluding with the pathology-inducing individualism wv. What appears to the individualist as 'the problems of the individual' are actually the systems efforts to distract by creating an "identified patient," often the child, or in marriage therapy, the husband. The identified patient often colludes in this as well, and fuly volunteers for the position.
Well old chap, perhaps your right in all reality with all its relations the individual is exempt, a close system in the truest sense of the word"
"You have also brought up the idea of utility, an idea relationalists have no claim to over individualists. However, research shows that taking a stance to be more fully relational than you, boagie, as the systems therapists do on the one hand, or taking a firm individualist position on the other hand, is more effective than sitting on the fence as you wish to do. That is, extremism in either direction is more effective than fence-sitting." quote
That's me alright mr extremist, you are very forceful in your stance but not real conviencing
Billy: " 'Understanding' a working whole"--whew!!! Where do we begin?
While it is true that one must draw a circle around the area to be considered as to consider the totality is quite overwhelming if not possiable, as the earth itself is an open system, and the universe unknown as to whether it is open or closed.
"Where do you draw the line around to limit the "whole"? For the individual therapist, it's at the edges of the body; for the systems therapist, it's around all members who are involved in the presenting problem (in circular causality fashion)." quote
I think if one wants to understand the individual one would have to consider him in the context of society and mybe even family, with the exception perhaps of a biological adnormality.
"As for understanding, can I assume you use this term in the limited manner related to utility? Rather than the larger UNDERSTANDING?" quote
What is the larger understand?
"By the way, when you write "General system theory is the new science, it does not replace the old reductionist approach to science but compliments it," there is a suggestion that it's all relative. But eventually the old system that the Earth is the center of the universe, gets displaced by the new." quote
I am not even sure what you mean by this, are you saying that systems theory displaces the reductionist method of science makes it obsolete?
"I think we have a basis, yes, a common ground. You seem to understand me. Now it's up to you to confirm that we have reached a mutual
understanding. You will do this by stating whether you think I understand YOU." quote
Well you are forceful in your protests but I do not understand if you agree about the nature of reality, what makes you think that the individual is exempt from said reality.
"PS It's my birthday! Is that both cause and effect? Is that a simple variable? what does it cause? effect?[/quote]
I think mom and dad were cause, at anyrate Billy have a good one, treat yourself in some way, make it significant. HAPPY BIRTHDAY!! Boagie:D
PS: Just an after thought, perhaps you could discribe to me just how your individual functions independently. I get the feeling that you find the relational world view offensive because it underlines interdependence and you think John Wayne perhaps a realistic role model-------sorry if I am reading you incorrectly but to me it is a puzzling stance.