This sentence is false.

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Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 04:24 pm
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;167058 wrote:
Presumably your last sentence is a mistake, as it doesn't make any sense. I think Night Ripper is getting at this problem:
1) this sentence expresses a proposition
2) this sentence expresses no proposition.


Yes, I do see that. I did make a mistake. There is most definitely a problem with my interpretation, and I am working on it.
 
Emil
 
Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 04:25 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;167055 wrote:
The link is not fixed - it still takes you back to the main page (I am assuming you are trying to link to a specific blog entry).


Works for me. Try reloaded the page (F5). Otherwise you are still using the old version. But then it's not that important since I just posted the pages that are relevant anyway.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 04:31 pm
@Gnostic,
Emil wrote:
Don't you mean to say that it does express a proposition but the proposition is false because there is no Mickey Mouse?


Hm, I don't know. That there is no Mickey Mouse means that there is no proposition being made, doesn't it? Sentences regarding things of fiction, express propositions?

Quote:
Yes, it does. It's called a conjunction. I have no idea how you got the idea that if a sentence contains an "and" with the conjunction meaning, it really does not express a conjunction but instead expresses two simple proposotions. Do you think that one cannot express conjunctions? That would seem to follow from what you wrote, and it is untenable. What a waste of time for logicians when they invented truth tables for conjunctions and stuff. Poor De Morgan!


It doesn't make any sense to me to say that it is a single proposition in a compound sentence.

I interpret:

"The chemical composition of water is H20, and the element hydrogen has an atomic number of 1"

the same as I would interpret:

"The chemical composition of water is H2O.
"The element hydrogen has an atmoic number of 1."

But I will admit I haven't thought this through. So, again, I don't know. You may indeed be right, but can you offer a better explanation?

---------- Post added 05-21-2010 at 06:35 PM ----------

Night Ripper,

Because my last post to you was inconsistent, it leads me to believe "This sentence expresses a proposition" does not in fact express a proposition. But, I will take more time to think it through. Sorry for the confusion.
 
Emil
 
Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 04:36 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;167067 wrote:
Hm, I don't know. That there is no Mickey Mouse means that there is no proposition being made, doesn't it? Sentences regarding things of fiction, express propositions?


I think not. But some people used to think that. That was how they dealt with the present king of France. You may recall that. Their idea was that sentences which subject is missing are meaningless, not false. Same with MM.

Quote:
It doesn't make any sense to me to say that it is a single proposition in a compound sentence.

I interpret:

"The chemical composition of water is H20, and the element hydrogen has an atomic number of 1"

the same as I would interpret:

"The chemical composition of water is H2O.
"The element hydrogen has an atmoic number of 1."

But I will admit I haven't thought this through. So, again, I don't know.


Then you are interpreting it wrong. Logic is calling you...

Though of course the truth conditions of the proposition expressed by the first sentence is similar to the ones for the second and third propositions. In fact, the truth conditions for the first is that it is true iff the second and third proposition are true.

---------- Post added 05-22-2010 at 12:37 AM ----------

Zetherin;167067 wrote:
Night Ripper,

Because my post was inconsistent, it leads me to believe "This sentence expresses a proposition" does not in fact express a proposition. But, I will take more time to think it through. Sorry for the confusion.


The tricky thing about these abstract objects is that you cannot see them. It's not like one can just go check if they really are there? Hallo propositions? Are you there? Can you hear me? ...
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 04:38 pm
@Gnostic,
Emil wrote:
Though of course the truth conditions of the proposition expressed by the first sentence is similar to the ones for the second and third propositions. In fact, the truth conditions for the first is that it is true iff the second and third proposition are true.


Interesting. Truth conditions. I will have to read more and get a better grasp on all these terms in order to have a clearer mind. Thanks.
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 04:43 pm
@Emil,
Emil;167071 wrote:
Zetherin;167067 wrote:
That there is no Mickey Mouse means that there is no proposition being made, doesn't it? Sentences regarding things of fiction, express propositions?
I think not. But some people used to think that. That was how they dealt with the present king of France. You may recall that. Their idea was that sentences which subject is missing are meaningless, not false. Same with MM.
It's not clear whether "I think not" is your answer to Zetherin's first question or his second.
 
Emil
 
Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 04:52 pm
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;167076 wrote:
It's not clear whether "I think not" is your answer to Zetherin's first question or his second.


Not? First question.
 
fast
 
Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 04:57 pm
@Gnostic,
The word "meaningful" is ambiguous. I think the sentence, "how has your day been?" is a meaningful sentence. It's certainly more meaningful than the meaningless mess, "Has wings dove off the bridges of Neptune lately?"

The former is meaningful (in one sense of the word, "meaningful"), but the latter isn't meaningful; it's meaningless.

However, just because a sentence is meaningful (can be understood and conveys meaning), that doesn't mean it's cognitively meaningful; hence, that doesn't mean that the sentence is true or false. So, the sentence, "how has your day been?" is meaningful yet not cognitively meaningful.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 04:58 pm
@fast,
fast;167086 wrote:
The word "meaningful" is ambiguous. I think the sentence, "how has your day been?" is a meaningful sentence. It's certainly more meaningful than the meaningless mess, "Has wings dove off the bridges of Neptune lately?"

The former is meaningful (in one sense of the word, "meaningful"), but the latter isn't meaningful; it's meaningless.

However, just because a sentence is meaningful (can be understood and conveys meaning), that doesn't mean it's cognitively meaningful; hence, that doesn't mean that the sentence is true or false. So, the sentence, "how has your day been?" is meaningful yet not cognitively meaningful.


Wait, so cognitively meaningful means that the sentence is either true or false? Please explicitly define the term if this is not what you mean. Thanks.
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 05:00 pm
@Emil,
Emil;167082 wrote:
Not? First question.
Okay, just to be clear, I interpret this to mean that you do think that a proposition is being expressed by the the sentence "Mickey Mouse wears white gloves". This would seem to be consistent with your response to my earlier question about 1+1=x and x=/=2.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 05:01 pm
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;167089 wrote:
Okay, just to be clear, I interpret this to mean that you do think that a proposition is being expressed by the the sentence "Mickey Mouse wears white gloves". This would seem to be consistent with your response to my earlier question about 1+1=x and x=/=2.


Do you believe "Mickey Mouse wears white gloves" expresses a proposition? What is your stance on all this?
 
Emil
 
Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 05:08 pm
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;167089 wrote:
Okay, just to be clear, I interpret this to mean that you do think that a proposition is being expressed by the the sentence "Mickey Mouse wears white gloves". This would seem to be consistent with your response to my earlier question about 1+1=x and x=/=2.


That's right. 444456666666666666

---------- Post added 05-22-2010 at 01:10 AM ----------

fast;167086 wrote:
The word "meaningful" is ambiguous. I think the sentence, "how has your day been?" is a meaningful sentence. It's certainly more meaningful than the meaningless mess, "Has wings dove off the bridges of Neptune lately?"

The former is meaningful (in one sense of the word, "meaningful"), but the latter isn't meaningful; it's meaningless.

However, just because a sentence is meaningful (can be understood and conveys meaning), that doesn't mean it's cognitively meaningful; hence, that doesn't mean that the sentence is true or false. So, the sentence, "how has your day been?" is meaningful yet not cognitively meaningful.


TL;DR: Meaningful doesn't imply cognitively meaningful.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 05:23 pm
@Gnostic,
Emil wrote:
That's right. 444456666666666666


You do think a proposition is being expressed by "Mickey Mouse wears white gloves"? If so, could you tell me if it is true or false?
 
Emil
 
Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 06:23 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;167100 wrote:
You do think a proposition is being expressed by "Mickey Mouse wears white gloves"? If so, could you tell me if it is true or false?


The sentence:
[INDENT]Mickey Mouse wears white gloves.[/INDENT]I think that it expresses two propositions (since it is ambiguous), one true, one false.

The first proposition is the same as that expressed by this sentence:
[INDENT]Mickey Mouse is depicted as wearing white gloves.

[/INDENT]That one is true. The second proposition is the same as the one expressed by this sentence:
[INDENT]Mickey mouse wears white gloves in reality.

[/INDENT]The last phrase "in reality" is obviously devised to avoid talking within some fictional universe, or how the character is depicted. The second proposition is false, since the subject (MM) doesn't exist.

Depending on how you like it, the first sentence is then either neither true or false, or both true and false. That depends on what the truth conditions are for sentences. See my earlier essays for that.
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 11:29 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;167090 wrote:
Do you believe "Mickey Mouse wears white gloves" expresses a proposition?
Sure.
Zetherin;167090 wrote:
What is your stance on all this?
By definition, a proposition can be assigned a truth value, so, self referential paradoxes dont express propositions.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 11:41 pm
@Emil,
Emil;167116 wrote:
[INDENT]Mickey mouse wears white gloves in reality.

[/INDENT].


If that sentence means anything at all, it means, Something is such that it is Mickey Mouse, and wears white gloves. That sentence expresses a false proposition.
 
Emil
 
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 04:31 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;167197 wrote:
If that sentence means anything at all, it means, Something is such that it is Mickey Mouse, and wears white gloves. That sentence expresses a false proposition.


Right. 23423423342
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 05:04 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;167090 wrote:
Do you believe "Mickey Mouse wears white gloves" expresses a proposition?


Yes, just as much as "God created the universe". Of course, they are both false since neither God nor Mickey Mouse exist.
 
Emil
 
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 05:34 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;167235 wrote:
Yes, just as much as "God created the universe". Of course, they are both false since neither God nor Mickey Mouse exist.


Actually there is a slight disanalogy there. Your sentence is in the past tense. That God does not exist not does not imply that it didn't exist before. Otherwise the analogy works.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 05:48 am
@Emil,
Emil;167238 wrote:
Actually there is a slight disanalogy there. Your sentence is in the past tense. That God does not exist not does not imply that it didn't exist before. Otherwise the analogy works.


The analogy works only if it is assumed that both God and Mickey Mouse do not exist, of course. It really depends on what the analogy is supposed to be. I take it that the analogy is between two sentences both of which imply the existence of a referent of the subject term. Whether there is such a referent is not part of the analogy. Just as the assumption that the premises of an argument are true is never one of the premises of any argument.
 
 

 
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