World's Most Difficult Logic Puzzle

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Fido
 
Reply Fri 5 Dec, 2008 10:54 pm
@Deftil,
Deftil wrote:
Several months ago I gave this one a lot of thought after being presented with it on another online forum. It made me brain hurt and I didn't figure it out.

Did some one tell you there was a correct solution??? People usually quit looking for their keys where they ain't... I only subscribe to this thread because I am not logical but intuitive, and I don't see any of my life hanging on a solution to this problem, and I got a lot of problems, and if some one can come up with an answer, then maybe I will check it..

Intuitively I know that problems are solved with intuition, and solutions are proved with logic...
 
Fido
 
Reply Fri 5 Dec, 2008 10:56 pm
@Fido,
Fido wrote:
This side, that side...What did it say on the inside???

Did I said that??
 
Deftil
 
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 10:43 pm
@Fido,
Fido;36736 wrote:
Did some one tell you there was a correct solution??? People usually quit looking for their keys where they ain't

Well, the riddle was posed, and hints were even dropped so I assumed it had a correct solution. But after a couple of says I just sais "Aw, the hell with that stupid riddle."

Also the riddle reminds me of this cartoon:
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/labyrinth_puzzle.png

I actually know of a lot of logic puzzles and similar riddles and problems... I'm wondering if I should post them, and if I do if I should put them all in one thread or break them up or what.....
 
No0ne
 
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2008 11:06 pm
@Zetetic11235,
12.8 seconds was the amount of time that I took for me to see that it was logicaly non-provable which god is which based on the rules of the game.(10-30min to type all posts)

It took me ruffly the avg amount of time it takes a human to wipe its a*s and turn and look to see if theres poop on the paper to know if he/she needs to wipe there a*s again...

:detective:"Crap! Crap! And more crap!"

If everyone followed such comments displayed by such a perception, this forum site would have never been created due to the fact it would be a "pointless waste of time".

Please be kind, and respect what others have choosen to say, let I remind all people of the forum rules of this website and how each and every person should be mindfull of them when creating a comment.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 18 Dec, 2008 11:09 pm
@No0ne,
NoOne, the solution was posted, so regardless how quick you can wipe your ass, I wouldn't say this puzzle is non-provable.
 
Fido
 
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2008 08:36 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:
NoOne, the solution was posted, so regardless how quick you can wipe your ass, I wouldn't say this puzzle is non-provable.

Whatztherprize...If you are burning neurons and survival is not at the end of it than you are further from the true goal... We don't do logic for fun...Really.. The fun is surviving to laugh last.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2008 04:31 pm
@Fido,
Fido wrote:
Whatztherprize...If you are burning neurons and survival is not at the end of it than you are further from the true goal... We don't do logic for fun...Really.. The fun is surviving to laugh last.


Did you really have to quote me to say this? I don't even see the correlation.

If my goal was only to survive until I was the last person laughing, that would be quite lonely. Instead, I want people around to laugh at. Surviving is only fun if I'm not the only one surviving.

Also, I wouldn't just take the stance that this logic puzzle means nothing to everyone. If anything, it opened my eyes to the "iff" system. Every experience, regardless how futile you perceive it, can be beneficial. But, if you have the world's solutions all written down in a book somewhere, I'd be glad to stop doing these random logic puzzles and start "burning neurons" even more productively.
 
Fido
 
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2008 09:02 am
@Zetherin,
Don't you mean: Laugh with??? I think I am so damned smart, and not because of my actions which like everyone elses are filled with mistakes, but simply because I think... But it is real problems which confront us, and not necessarily problems having logical solutions... And it would be honest to God cool if we could say we solve problems logically... I can't say that...Logic is a tool.. Okay, I have a set of problems and a whole box of tools all of which add up to insight and creativity, and what if I get to the next point and I have done it without being able to say how the solution was arrived at logically... My life in construction was one of problem solving... Real problems, real solutions, and a fair number of them I slept on and woke up knowing the fix... What I have heard is that the three b's are where problems are solved, on the bus, on the bed, and in ones bath... Standing we think fast, and in bed we think deeply, and sitting we think well, between the two...Logic seems to me to offer a proof to a solution, but there is nothing about it that is creative...The logic of the mind is that it can combine many levels of logic...Subconsciously.
 
ogre
 
Reply Fri 16 Jan, 2009 08:27 am
@Fido,
The logic of the question as I understand it is that there can only be two answers. Yes or No. This comes down to the probability of the proverbial coin toss. The only two answers you can get is Yes, Yes, No or No, No, Yes. The random is inconsequential. Regardless of the language it comes down to a binary decision.
 
MushroomStomper
 
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 08:10 am
@Didymos Thomas,
Hmmm...if you ask God A if he is Truth and he replies "da" ask him if he answered the last question truthfully...then if he replies "da" for a second time he still could be all three but it's more likely that he's either telling the truth or lying. If he replies "ja"..........wait......I totally lost where I was going with this...
 
hamilton
 
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 07:30 pm
three gods
a
b
c
only yes and no questions
three types of god
true
false
random
can only say da and ja.
ask the each god the same question twice, until you find the random one (he will change his answer).
heres the answer. after i found the random one, i mean.
me to god 1 (assuming that god3 is random): does god 2 tell the truth?
god1: ja
me to god2: do you tell the truth?
god2: ja
me to god2: does he tell the truth?
god2: da
me to god1: do you tell the truth?
god2:ja
the one that answers the same answer three times is the liar.
boom. solved!
 
hamilton
 
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2011 07:19 pm
@hamilton,
hold on. thats not right. sorry. heres the actual answer.
find the random one by asking the same question a few times to each one.
ask one god, "is he the random one?"
(response)
ask the other,"did he just lie?"
in this case, whatever they say will be yes. ask the same question to the first god, and if he is lying, he will say something other than that which the last god said.
saavy?
 
Amartya
 
Reply Sun 28 Aug, 2011 11:33 am
@Didymos Thomas,
Boolos provided his solution in the same article in which he introduced the puzzle. Boolos states that the "first move is to find a god that you can be certain is not Random, and hence is either True or False".[1] There are many different questions that will achieve this result. One strategy is to use complicated logical connectives in your questions (either biconditionals or some equivalent construction).
Boolos' question was to ask A:
Does da mean yes iff you are True iff B is Random?[1]
Equivalently:
Are an odd number of the following statements true: you are False, da means yes, B is Random?
It was observed by Roberts (2001) -- and independently by Rabern and Rabern (2008) -- that the puzzle's solution can be simplified by using certain counterfactuals.[3][4] The key to this solution is that, for any yes/no question Q, asking either True or False the question
If I asked you Q, would you say ja?
results in the answer ja if the truthful answer to Q is yes, and the answer da if the truthful answer to Q is no (Rabern and Rabern (2008) call this result the embedded question lemma). The reason it works can be seen by looking at the eight possible cases.
Assume that ja means yes and da means no.
True is asked and responds with ja. Since he is telling the truth, the truthful answer to Q is ja, which means yes.
True is asked and responds with da. Since he is telling the truth, the truthful answer to Q is da, which means no.
False is asked and responds with ja. Since he is lying it follows that if you asked him Q he would instead answer da. He would be lying, so the truthful answer to Q is ja, which means yes.
False is asked and responds with da. Since he is lying it follows that if you asked him Q he would in fact answer ja. He would be lying, so the truthful answer to Q is da, which means no.
Assume ja means no and da means yes.
True is asked and responds with ja. Since he is telling the truth, the truthful answer to Q is da, which means yes.
True is asked and responds with da. Since he is telling the truth, the truthful answer to Q is ja, which means no.
False is asked and responds with ja. Since he is lying it follows that if you asked him Q he would in fact answer ja. He would be lying, so the truthful answer to Q is da, which means yes.
False is asked and responds with da. Since he is lying it follows that if you asked him Q he would instead answer da. He would be lying, so the truthful answer to Q is ja, which means no.
Using this fact, one may proceed as follows.[3]
Ask god B, "If I asked you 'Is A Random?', would you say ja?". If B answers ja, then either B is Random (and is answering randomly), or B is not Random and the answer indicates that A is indeed Random. Either way, C is not Random. If B answers da, then either B is Random (and is answering randomly), or B is not Random and the answer indicates that A is not Random. Either way, A is not Random.
Go to the god who was identified as not being Random by the previous question (either A or C), and ask him: "If I asked you 'Are you True?', would you say ja?". Since he is not Random, an answer of ja indicates that he is True and an answer of da indicates that he is False.
Ask the same god the question: "If I asked you 'Is B Random?', would you say ja?". If the answer is ja then B is Random; if the answer is da then the god you have not yet spoken to is Random. The remaining god can be identified by elimination.
[edit]Random's behavior
Most readers of the puzzle assume that Random will provide completely random answers to any question asked of him; however, Rabern and Rabern (2008) have pointed out that the puzzle does not actually state this.[3] And in fact, Boolos' third clarifying remark explicitly refutes this assumption.
Whether Random speaks truly or not should be thought of as depending on the flip of a coin hidden in his brain: if the coin comes down heads, he speaks truly; if tails, falsely.
This says that Random randomly acts as a false-teller or a truth-teller, not that Random answers randomly.
A small change to the question above yields a question which will always elicit a meaningful answer from Random. The change is as follows:
If I asked you Q in your current mental state, would you say ja?[3]
This effectively extracts the truth-teller and liar personalities from Random and forces him to be only one of them. By doing so the puzzle becomes completely trivial, that is, truthful answers can be easily obtained.
Ask god A, "If I asked you 'Are you Random?' in your current mental state, would you say ja?"
If A answers ja, then A is Random: Ask god B, "If I asked you 'Are you True?', would you say ja?"
If B answers ja, then B is True and C is False.
If B answers da, then B is False and C is True. In both cases, the puzzle is solved.
If A answers da, then A is not Random: Ask god A, "If I asked you 'Are you True?', would you say ja?"
If A answers ja, then A is True.
If A answers da, then A is False.
Ask god A, "If I asked you 'Is B Random?', would you say ja?"
If A answers ja, then B is Random, and C is the opposite of A.
If A answers da, then C is Random, and B is the opposite of A.
 
steam
 
Reply Wed 31 Aug, 2011 09:13 am
@Amartya,
Your answer is all wrong. You keep making statements that if you asked a certain God a certain question and that God was so and so and ja equaled yes and da equaled no then the answer to your question would be x. The problem of the puzzle is that you do not know which god is which and which word ja or da equals yes or no, and the answer you receive from one god is not exclusive to that god. Try any of your questions on all three gods and you will see that two of them answer identically and you still don't know which god is which or which answer is which. You only show that if you know which god is which and which answer is which, you can use that knowledge to force a specific answer out of a god.
 
jonathan4120
 
Reply Mon 5 Nov, 2012 07:58 am
ask them a question, which the answer you already know. like for example, ask their gender.
 
 

 
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