Future As Primary

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Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 12:12 am
Man is the vessel through which the Future acts on the Present. That's my theory, which is borrowed of course, creativity being really quite difficult in this game/religion/comedy/science/poem known as philosophy.

How does the Future act on the Present? Well, we find ourselves walking to the grocery store because we envision and desire baked salmon with asparagus. We pile up the bricks that will eventually become a cathedral, but the cathedral is already planned and desired.

I think animals to some degree are like this, but humans especially live in the future, or as the future within the womb or matrix (mother) of the spatial present. Let's say that a desired concept is a project. Man is the vessel of the project. Man incarnates the Future. He incarnates the Ideal.

I got this idea from Kojeve, who got it from Hegel and maybe Heidegger. But it's also in Spengler in a different way. For me, it adds to the value of all those paintings of the Virgin and her Child. Is this a way to represent the desire for the future and the future desired?

Man as Time as nonspatialbeing as concept that "nihilates" or penetrates spatial being. This is why I also like the cross. It hints at this sort of interpenetration.

OH yeah, the idea is that the idea of the future is made from memory, albeit adjusted, edited, negated, improved upon. So the future acts upon the present by way of the past. Future --> Past --> Present

Smile
 
TandF
 
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 12:34 am
@Reconstructo,
The future does indeed help create the present. Many events in my life are created in the present when I relive them later in my minds eye and connect with myself in the past from the point of view of the future me. When I connect, I cause myself in that past present to not only get a particular feeling, but I receive from myself images and feelings of what is about to occur. In this fashion I tell people what they are about to say, are thinking about (including specific numbers or details), or what is about to happen. I get that information from myself further down the time line as I relive it and connect with myself. After hundreds of these time loops, saving lives with it, having specific numbers and detailed knowledge of events about to happen which I inform people arround me of previous to them going down that path, I have no doubt that time loops exist. My familly, wife, friends, and co-workers are all amazed and think that I have some sort of psychic ability but I know that they are incorrect and in reality, for me, all time is NNNNNOOOOWWWWW and that I am just getting the information from myself farther down the time line when I relive it in my minds eye. I can not control it but when it happens, it has a distinctive feeling, is unforgettable, and defies scientific explanation. Often when it happens, I do or say things in the moment and that causes the reality to go down a particular path. My future creates my present as often as my past does. I assume that this is true for everyone, whether they realize it or not. There is truly no past, present, or future. That is a man made false breakdown of time to live in the moment. All time is NOW for all eternity. I AM for all eternity.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 12:39 am
@TandF,
TandF;164149 wrote:
The future does indeed help create the present. Many events in my life are created in the present when I relive them later in my minds eye and connect with myself in the past from the point of view of the future me. When I connect, I cause myself in that past present to not only get a particular feeling, but I receive from myself images and feelings of what is about to occur. In this fashion I tell people what they are about to say, are thinking about (including specific numbers or details), or what is about to happen. I get that information from myself further down the time line as I relive it and connect with myself. After hundreds of these time loops, saving lives with it, having specific numbers and detailed knowledge of events about to happen which I inform people arround me of previous to them going down that path, I have no doubt that time loops exist. My familly, wife, friends, and co-workers are all amazed and think that I have some sort of psychic ability but I know that they are incorrect and in reality, for me, all time is NNNNNOOOOWWWWW and that I am just getting the information from myself farther down the time line when I relive it in my minds eye. I can not control it but when it happens, it has a distinctive feeling, is unforgettable, and defies scientific explanation. Often when it happens, I do or say things in the moment and that causes the reality to go down a particular path. My future creates my present as often as my past does. I assume that this is true for everyone, whether they realize it or not. There is truly no past, present, or future. That is a man made false breakdown of time to live in the moment. All time is NOW for all eternity. I AM for all eternity.


This is a fascinating post. I do like this famous phrase: "before abraham was, I am." I think you are looking at a different from me, but I don't mind that. In a way, I can agree that there is no past, present, or future. As these are all just concepts, but of course they do exist as concepts. And I must say that I feel that concepts are quite real for us. Still, I thank you for participating.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 01:20 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;164144 wrote:


How does the Future act on the Present? Well, we find ourselves walking to the grocery store because we envision and desire baked salmon with asparagus. We pile up the bricks that will eventually become a cathedral, but the cathedral is already planned and desired.



Smile


You think that those are instances of the future acting on the present (or do I need big F and big P?)? Why do you think that? What, in those cases act on the present (Present?) are thoughts of the future (Future?). Thoughts of the future (Future) are not in the future (Fuiture). Thoughts of the future (Future) are in the present (Present).

Where do you get this stuff from? Is it omission of thought, or is it commission of nonsense?
 
jgweed
 
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 05:23 am
@Reconstructo,
Above and beyond the animal instincts, the future as project (whether great or small, individual or collective) is certainly important---some would say definitive) to humans when they direct their actions. In many instances, the past (or the remembered past) may also influence both the project and perhaps more immediately the steps taken to accomplish the project ( one wants to avoid the "mistakes" of earlier attempts, for example).
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 06:45 am
@jgweed,
jgweed;164187 wrote:
Above and beyond the animal instincts, the future as project (whether great or small, individual or collective) is certainly important---some would say definitive) to humans when they direct their actions. In many instances, the past (or the remembered past) may also influence both the project and perhaps more immediately the steps taken to accomplish the project ( one wants to avoid the "mistakes" of earlier attempts, for example).


But "the future as project" whatever that might be, is the present thought about the future. It does not involve the reversal of time as Reconstructo seems to fantasize it does. Present thinking about the future is not future thinking. Now is it? Perhaps we can let language go on holiday on occasion, but we should not give it full retirement.
 
TandF
 
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 09:37 am
@kennethamy,
Let my try and elucidate on this time thing. Although quantum mechanics has proven that observation in the future of an event causes the event to take a particular path in the past (wave partical duality), on the human level, people have a hard time accepting that the future can influence or create the past experience (from the point of view of that future moment). The arrow of time thing points only one way for most people and anything else isn't what most people consciously experience, so they can't believe it is true (even if on the quantum level, scientists have shown that the future perception of the event influences that "past" event.)

For lack of another name and because when I discussed it with others, they had never experienced it nor heard of it, I made up my own terminology and called this phenomena "time loops". As an avid follower of all the sciences including quantum mechanics and astrophysics, I was excited that science was catching up on this front of how time actually works, even if it is only on the quantum level that it is now being measured and witnessed. I swear it is true and my wife, an avid realist who originally thought it sounded crazy when I met her and explained it to her 28 years ago, has not only witnessed it dozens of times but has now come to accept it since there is no other logical explanation.

As a child growing up, I would have events occur in which I was hyper aware of the "moment" and received "information" on the event starting up to a minute before the event, during the event, and a short time thereafter. The first time I remember it happening was when I was about 5 years old. A neighbor kid was about to say something and I said it for him. He looked at me and asked "what are you, a mind reader?" What am I thinking? I got a weird feeling and saw an image of a hoola dancer in my minds eye. So I told him, a hoola dancer. He freaked out, turned around and ran home. From that point on he told everyone I was a witch (which is ridiculous).

The second time I remember it happening was when I was 8 years old and asleep in the back seat of the car. The whole family was traveling to Wisconsin from Chicago and in my sleep, I perceived at a base level of my brain, even though I was asleep, the word "STOP" screaming at me. So I woke up and yelled STOP! my dad slammed on the breaks, skidded over the top of the hill, and came to a stop feet from a huge accident blocking the road that had just happened moments earlier. My dad was shaken and quivering with adrenalin and he asked me how I knew since there was nothing visible from the other side of the hill where I had screamed it. I told him that I had been asleep and I heard STOP in my brain, so I woke up and screamed it.

I later learned to understand and recognize the inner voice which turned out to be mine from later in the time line when I relived the experience in my minds eye. Every time I envisioned myself in the past "moment" when I had that weird feeling, or even told someone about it, I relived it and strengthened the signal to myself in the "moment". The more I viewed the event in my minds eye, the stronger the signal I received in that past moment when I experienced it. The "feeling" and information I received was from myself farther down the time line. I was connecting with myself and creating the future in the moment.

As I grew older, it would happen time and time again, but I could not control it. I would get the "feeling" and tell someone what they were going to say or even more complex things about to happen. Always, I would relive the experience later that day, week, month, or year, after it happened and connect with myself in the past, when I relived it. It sounds crazy but I would get the feeling and just see in my minds eye information that I could not know before the event, but I would. It was bizarre. My father called me the luckiest person he ever met in his life. After hundreds of "events" over several years, I came to accept the phenomena when it occurred and even gave it a name "time loops". Whether it was with co-workers asking "guess what happened to me this morning" and I got the feeling and I saw in my minds eye a squirrel flopping on the ground dying as his car moved on" so I told him. He told me that was exactly right, he didn't know if he had killed it or not but that he felt horrible about it, etc. He was shocked that I had "guessed" it. Later that night, I relived the moment in my minds eye and connected in the "moment" with myself, and that is when the image traveled back to my minds eye. I learned to recognize the feeling and my own self sending the minds image.

I figured out (over 30 years ago) that time is not as humans perceive it. There is no past, present, or future. That is just a man made human break down of time with everything already experienced as the past, this short elusive moment as the present (already the past) and all moments not yet reached as the future. Mankind goes now, now, now, now ..... In the real time of the universe, everything is ...NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOWWWWW... from the start of time to the end of time. Man's break down of time is just an illusion so he can live his daily life in the moment.

In conclusion, although a human perceiver of a quantum event affects the event, even if the perception happens "later" (in the human perception of time), most people don't realize that the future perception effects the moment (in the past from the future perceptions point of view), even on the human level (not just the quantum level). You may not ever remember having experienced a time loop or recognized it for what it is, but I (and all my family, friends, and co-workers who have witnessed it, repetitively) know that it is possible to get information from yourself in the future. At least that is what I believe is happening because I recognize my own self and relive the event which causes me to have that feeling in the past. Sounds crazy but I have no better explanation for it when it happens. When they happen (I have now had it happen several hundreds of times by the age of 46), I get a real weird feeling of super heightened awareness in the "moment" and I usually get detailed mental images of what is about to happen (sometimes specific numbers, objects, and names) that I know come from myself down the time line and never knew before from past experience or information. The future really does influence the present. I AM living it.

When I am in "doing mode" (outputting to accomplish a task in the moment) I am so busy doing and outputting that I receive nothing from myself down the time line. Every time a time loop has ever happened, I was briefly slip into "observation mode" (in which mode I am receiving, not outputting). I don't believe that time loops can occur in "doing mode".

Some judge other by their own experiences and if they have never experienced something that someone else has, they deem it impossible or a flight of fancy. Such is human arrogance. I accept that not all minds operate the same way and not all experiences that others have had, that I necessarily have. That does not negate their experience just because I haven't had it. It only makes me strive harder to experience it if it is something I wish to perceive or understand. Open minds absorb, closed minds block out information and experiences. Thank you for reading this with an open mind.:listening:
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 03:11 pm
@jgweed,
jgweed;164187 wrote:
Above and beyond the animal instincts, the future as project (whether great or small, individual or collective) is certainly important---some would say definitive) to humans when they direct their actions. In many instances, the past (or the remembered past) may also influence both the project and perhaps more immediately the steps taken to accomplish the project ( one wants to avoid the "mistakes" of earlier attempts, for example).


Thanks for this reply. I would personally emphasize the past more than this. But I'm glad that someone else recognizes the important of the "Project" concept.

---------- Post added 05-14-2010 at 04:18 PM ----------

TandF;164267 wrote:

Some judge other by their own experiences and if they have never experienced something that someone else has, they deem it impossible or a flight of fancy. Such is human arrogance.


Sometimes its arrogance and at other times it's caution. I'm curious as to what your opinion on the O.P. is? I feel that you may be exploring the sort of tangent that should be its own thread.
Smile
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 03:36 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;164356 wrote:
. But I'm glad that someone else recognizes the important of the "Project" concept.

---------- Post added 05-14-2010 at 04:18 PM ----------




Smile


Indeed, whatever it happens to be. Even if it doesn't mean anything, it sounds just great. Ready for Hollywood. Probably, Oliver Stone would be fascinated by it.
 
jgweed
 
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 07:52 am
@Reconstructo,
Both Sartre and Heidegger emphasize that it is through projects that one "owns" one's future, whether the plans are exceedingly complex (e.g. let's build a network of superhighways across the nation) to a simple one of buying a new coffee pot or making plans to attend a wedding. Both also recognise that projects (and the steps necessary to achieve them) are always open to "on the fly" adjustments as the process unfolds, and even complete rejection.

Again, many projects are almost habitual (the repetition of a successful past) and done without a lot of thought, and others---especially ones involving new horizons--- require a great amount of time in planning (say, for example, a couple wishing to purchase a first-time home).

There is also, incidentally, a whole business that has developed in designing and implementing decision-tables and flow charts, especially in the IT field but also in factory designing ( Ford designing an assembly line).

Just as with individual lives, society also seems to be largely organised (and perhaps created)by projects. In politics, both practical and theoretical, laws are passed for the purpose of changing the future, or groups are formed for a special purpose (e.g., the Anti-Corn law League or ASPCA) of "political action."
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 08:26 am
@TandF,
TandF;164267 wrote:
Let my try and elucidate on this time thing. Although quantum mechanics has proven that observation in the future of an event causes the event to take a particular path in the past (wave partical duality), on the human level, people have a hard time accepting that the future can influence or create the past experience (from the point of view of that future moment). The arrow of time thing points only one way for most people and anything else isn't what most people consciously experience, so they can't believe it is true (even if on the quantum level, scientists have shown that the future perception of the event influences that "past" event.)

For lack of another name and because when I discussed it with others, they had never experienced it nor heard of it, I made up my own terminology and called this phenomena "time loops". As an avid follower of all the sciences including quantum mechanics and astrophysics, I was excited that science was catching up on this front of how time actually works, even if it is only on the quantum level that it is now being measured and witnessed. I swear it is true and my wife, an avid realist who originally thought it sounded crazy when I met her and explained it to her 28 years ago, has not only witnessed it dozens of times but has now come to accept it since there is no other logical explanation.

As a child growing up, I would have events occur in which I was hyper aware of the "moment" and received "information" on the event starting up to a minute before the event, during the event, and a short time thereafter. The first time I remember it happening was when I was about 5 years old. A neighbor kid was about to say something and I said it for him. He looked at me and asked "what are you, a mind reader?" What am I thinking? I got a weird feeling and saw an image of a hoola dancer in my minds eye. So I told him, a hoola dancer. He freaked out, turned around and ran home. From that point on he told everyone I was a witch (which is ridiculous).

The second time I remember it happening was when I was 8 years old and asleep in the back seat of the car. The whole family was traveling to Wisconsin from Chicago and in my sleep, I perceived at a base level of my brain, even though I was asleep, the word "STOP" screaming at me. So I woke up and yelled STOP! my dad slammed on the breaks, skidded over the top of the hill, and came to a stop feet from a huge accident blocking the road that had just happened moments earlier. My dad was shaken and quivering with adrenalin and he asked me how I knew since there was nothing visible from the other side of the hill where I had screamed it. I told him that I had been asleep and I heard STOP in my brain, so I woke up and screamed it.

I later learned to understand and recognize the inner voice which turned out to be mine from later in the time line when I relived the experience in my minds eye. Every time I envisioned myself in the past "moment" when I had that weird feeling, or even told someone about it, I relived it and strengthened the signal to myself in the "moment". The more I viewed the event in my minds eye, the stronger the signal I received in that past moment when I experienced it. The "feeling" and information I received was from myself farther down the time line. I was connecting with myself and creating the future in the moment.

As I grew older, it would happen time and time again, but I could not control it. I would get the "feeling" and tell someone what they were going to say or even more complex things about to happen. Always, I would relive the experience later that day, week, month, or year, after it happened and connect with myself in the past, when I relived it. It sounds crazy but I would get the feeling and just see in my minds eye information that I could not know before the event, but I would. It was bizarre. My father called me the luckiest person he ever met in his life. After hundreds of "events" over several years, I came to accept the phenomena when it occurred and even gave it a name "time loops". Whether it was with co-workers asking "guess what happened to me this morning" and I got the feeling and I saw in my minds eye a squirrel flopping on the ground dying as his car moved on" so I told him. He told me that was exactly right, he didn't know if he had killed it or not but that he felt horrible about it, etc. He was shocked that I had "guessed" it. Later that night, I relived the moment in my minds eye and connected in the "moment" with myself, and that is when the image traveled back to my minds eye. I learned to recognize the feeling and my own self sending the minds image.

I figured out (over 30 years ago) that time is not as humans perceive it. There is no past, present, or future. That is just a man made human break down of time with everything already experienced as the past, this short elusive moment as the present (already the past) and all moments not yet reached as the future. Mankind goes now, now, now, now ..... In the real time of the universe, everything is ...NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOWWWWW... from the start of time to the end of time. Man's break down of time is just an illusion so he can live his daily life in the moment.

In conclusion, although a human perceiver of a quantum event affects the event, even if the perception happens "later" (in the human perception of time), most people don't realize that the future perception effects the moment (in the past from the future perceptions point of view), even on the human level (not just the quantum level). You may not ever remember having experienced a time loop or recognized it for what it is, but I (and all my family, friends, and co-workers who have witnessed it, repetitively) know that it is possible to get information from yourself in the future. At least that is what I believe is happening because I recognize my own self and relive the event which causes me to have that feeling in the past. Sounds crazy but I have no better explanation for it when it happens. When they happen (I have now had it happen several hundreds of times by the age of 46), I get a real weird feeling of super heightened awareness in the "moment" and I usually get detailed mental images of what is about to happen (sometimes specific numbers, objects, and names) that I know come from myself down the time line and never knew before from past experience or information. The future really does influence the present. I AM living it.

When I am in "doing mode" (outputting to accomplish a task in the moment) I am so busy doing and outputting that I receive nothing from myself down the time line. Every time a time loop has ever happened, I was briefly slip into "observation mode" (in which mode I am receiving, not outputting). I don't believe that time loops can occur in "doing mode".

Some judge other by their own experiences and if they have never experienced something that someone else has, they deem it impossible or a flight of fancy. Such is human arrogance. I accept that not all minds operate the same way and not all experiences that others have had, that I necessarily have. That does not negate their experience just because I haven't had it. It only makes me strive harder to experience it if it is something I wish to perceive or understand. Open minds absorb, closed minds block out information and experiences. Thank you for reading this with an open mind.:listening:

Yes, the claim of precognition has been made over and over again. The trouble is that, as cognitive scientists can explain, anecdotal evidence like the stuff you keep coming up with, must be backed by the real evidence of controlled studies ad experiments. And, in that department of objective rather than objective method, precognition comes up pretty short. And I don't think that QM is thought to be relevant here, either.

Some judge other by their own experiences and if they have never experienced something that someone else has, they deem it impossible or a flight of fancy. Such is human arrogance.

Yes, but neither way is particularly scientifically reliable. Experiences, whether your own, or others, are not worth much as evidence unless they occur under carefully supervised conditions which leaves little room for wishful thinking, bias, or trickery.

Sounds crazy but I have no better explanation for it when it happens

That it sounds crazy is neither here nor there. But what seems to me important is to realized that the fact that you (happen to) have no better explanation for it need not mean that there is no better explanation. Only that you cannot come up with one. That is why we do these things in scientific laboratories where we can control for intervening factors that cannot be detected in non-controlled environments.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 01:28 pm
@jgweed,
jgweed;164585 wrote:
Both Sartre and Heidegger emphasize that it is through projects that one "owns" one's future, whether the plans are exceedingly complex (e.g. let's build a network of superhighways across the nation) to a simple one of buying a new coffee pot or making plans to attend a wedding. Both also recognise that projects (and the steps necessary to achieve them) are always open to "on the fly" adjustments as the process unfolds, and even complete rejection.


Would you agree that the future is primary, as far as human time is concerned? Does the notion of time(AKA man) as nonbeing/concept/project interpenetrating the spatial present appeal to you? Kojeve liked to say that for Hegel man is the empirically existing concept. Which is to say the collision of time and space, or being and nonbeing. (Of course, we could use the word "concept" for nonbeing, but "nonbeing" does stress it's nature as something other than being in the usual spatial sense.--and perhaps it also stresses the negation that makes abstraction possible. I argue that abstract is simultaneously negation and synthesis. Because essence is the negation of accident?)
 
jgweed
 
Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 07:39 am
@Reconstructo,
Many existentialists would say that the future is primary, especially since man is the being who is conscious of his death. Just as I own my future, in the same way, I own my own death. Religion seems a way to give an account for this phenomena even to the point of,
avoiding it by positing an afterlife with rewards and punishments for choices made during life.

If human life is always one of action (or reaction and avoidance), then the action is determined by a current vision of a future state. Without the importance of the future, would there be any argument between determinism and free will?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 07:57 am
@jgweed,
jgweed;164913 wrote:
e. Without the importance of the future, would there be any argument between determinism and free will?


Of course there would be. There are, as Bertrand Russell notes, past futures as well as future futures. So even were there no future futures there would still be the issue whether past futures were free (in the sense, if any, that what is determined is not free).
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 01:35 am
@jgweed,
jgweed;164913 wrote:
Many existentialists would say that the future is primary, especially since man is the being who is conscious of his death. Just as I own my future, in the same way, I own my own death. Religion seems a way to give an account for this phenomena even to the point of,
avoiding it by positing an afterlife with rewards and punishments for choices made during life.

If human life is always one of action (or reaction and avoidance), then the action is determined by a current vision of a future state. Without the importance of the future, would there be any argument between determinism and free will?


I agree with all of this. Yes, the future is present, but not spatially present. The future exist as desire/fear in relation to a concept. And you mention afterlife, which is another desired concept. Perhaps you are touching on being-toward-death, which I think is a valuable concept. To accept our mortality is a goad to evolve our conception of self. That's my opinion. Death shows us the absurdity of clinging to the accidental nature of self. But that's an oversimplification. I'm not against uniqueness in the least. It's complicated.
 
 

 
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