Determinism and Fatalism: What's the Difference?

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil. Albuquerque;131575 wrote:

Where does Chaitin say that?

@ughaibu,

ughaibu;131580 wrote:

Where does Chaitin say that?

And why would anyone admit such a thing even if it were true?

@hue-man,

hue-man;129794 wrote:

It appears as if the metaphysical theory of determinism is self-evident. But if everything is pre-determined by a previous cause, then doesn't that reduce to fatalism? And if the will is also subject to deterministic causality then how can the will thwart the inevitable?

It hinges on whether or not you think causes are real or just abstract relationships derived in hindsight. If you think the laws of physics were set in stone from day one rather than unfolding as they may, yes it does reduce to fatalism.

@Night Ripper,

Night Ripper;131583 wrote:

It hinges on whether or not you think causes are real or just abstract relationships derived in hindsight. If you think the laws of physics were set in stone from day one rather than unfolding as they may, yes it does reduce to fatalism.

you have(from the other thread) these curious notions of randomness in nature. Is your position that there is no such thing as cause and effect? Or is it simply your position that the cause cannot be determined?

@Night Ripper,

Night Ripper;131583 wrote:

It hinges on whether or not you think causes are real or just abstract relationships derived in hindsight. If you think the laws of physics were set in stone from day one rather than unfolding as they may, yes it does reduce to fatalism.

You mean despite my argument that determinism and fatalism are incompatible because fatalism says something that determinism denies is true? Or, does that matter?

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;131589 wrote:

You mean despite my argument that determinism and fatalism are incompatible because fatalism says something that determinism denies is true? Or, does that matter?

There are different definitions for fatalism. I don't think we mean the same thing. I mean fatalism as in the entire history of the universe being determined at the beginning by the initial conditions of the universe along with the laws of nature.

For me, the laws of nature can only be determined in hindsight based on how the universe randomly unfolds. Since the laws of nature are derived after the fact, it's trivial to describe the entire history of the universe along with the initial conditions simply because the laws of nature are ad hoc.

@Night Ripper,

Night Ripper;131598 wrote:

I mean fatalism as in the entire history of the universe being determined at the beginning by the initial conditions of the universe along with the laws of nature.

That's the definition of determinism, fatalism makes no claim about laws of nature, it makes a claim about fate.

Night Ripper;131598 wrote:

For me, the laws of nature can only be determined in hindsight based on how the universe randomly unfolds. Since the laws of nature are derived after the fact, it's trivial to describe the entire history of the universe along with the initial conditions simply because the laws of nature are ad hoc.

I suspect that you're confusing laws of science with laws of nature.

@ughaibu,

ughaibu;131601 wrote:

That's the definition of determinism, fatalism makes no claim about laws of nature, it makes a claim about fate.I suspect that you're confusing laws of science with laws of nature.

That's one definition of determinism, causal determinism and it implies fatalism, which is my point.

ughaibu;131601 wrote:

I suspect that you're confusing laws of science with laws of nature.

No, I mean the laws of nature, which the laws of science can only approximate.

@Night Ripper,

Night Ripper;131603 wrote:

That's one definition of determinism, causal determinism and implies fatalism.

Fate is a supernatural notion, determinism is distinguished from fatalism by virtue of appealing to laws of nature.

@ughaibu,

ughaibu;131605 wrote:

Fate is a supernatural notion, determinism is distinguished from fatalism by virtue of appealing to laws of nature.

Yes, that's one idea of fatalism, the inevitable. I believe the classic example of that kind of fatalism is Oedipus who was fated to kill his father. Even though he tried to avoid his fate his actions were ineffectual and he eventually killed his father anyways (and married his mother).

That's not the kind of fatalism I was talking about. I don't think that kind of fatalism has any kind of relevance to most discussions since as you put it, it is rather supernatural.

More importantly, I don't think that's the kind of fatalism the original poster had in mind either.

@Night Ripper,

Night Ripper;131607 wrote:

I don't think that kind of fatalism has any kind of relevance to most discussions since as you put it, it is rather supernatural.

I think it's the case that fatalism is false, but I think it's also the case that determinism is false. However, this thread asks how these two claims differ, and the basic difference is that one is natural and the other supernatural.

@ughaibu,

ughaibu;131609 wrote:

I think it's the case that fatalism is false, but I think it's also the case that determinism is false. However, this thread asks how these two claims differ, and the basic difference is that one is natural and the other supernatural.

You're using the term "fatalism" differently, to mean something else, than the original poster. There's more than one idea behind fatalism. The other is that there is only a single possible future.

@Night Ripper,

Night Ripper;131610 wrote:

You're using the term "fatalism" differently, to mean something else, than the original poster. There's more than one idea behind fatalism. The other is that there is only a single possible future.

Under determinism there is only one possible future, so there is no distinction to be made between fatalism and determinism, by this point.

@ughaibu,

Is there only one possible past? I would say yes. And isn't the future simply the past as yet to come? Fatalism whether true or not is not something we should concern ourselves with as life must continue as though it's not there.

I would say the difference between determinism and fatalism depends on if we're talking about hard or soft determinism. If we're talking about hard determinism I'm not sure there is a difference. If we're talking about soft determinism I would say the difference is the way in which free will allows for essentially any and all courses of action. It would seem a contradiction in terms to say someone can freely do anything and yet be locked into a course of action.

@Night Ripper,

Night Ripper;131598 wrote:

There are different definitions for fatalism. I don't think we mean the same thing. I mean fatalism as in the entire history of the universe being determined at the beginning by the initial conditions of the universe along with the laws of nature.

.

Yes. That's determinism. And if you define fatalism as determinism, then, of course, there will be no difference between them. I was thinking of the distinction between fatalism and determinism, you see.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;131615 wrote:

Yes. That's determinism. And if you define fatalism as determinism, then, of course, there will be no difference between them. I was thinking of the distinction between fatalism and determinism, you see.

No, that's not determinism. If you think fatalism is determinism then of course you will have some confusion. Read this and hopefully it will help you.

Fatalism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Quote:

Fatalism is the view that we are powerless to do anything other than what we actually do. It may be argued for in various ways: by appeal to logical laws and metaphysical necessities; by appeal to the existence and nature of God; by appeal to causal determinism.

This backs me up since the other definition, the supernatural one, is not the definition they offer.

@Night Ripper,

Night Ripper;131618 wrote:

No, that's not determinism. If you think fatalism is determinism then of course you will have some confusion. Read this and hopefully it will help you.

Fatalism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Yes, indeed. That is what Fatalism is, and what determinism is not. Determinism says what we do has effects. Fatalism says that what will happen will happen whatever we do. Completely contrary to each other.You see that, don't you? If you believe that is fatalism, then what do you think that determinism is? Make the distinction.

@Night Ripper,

Night Ripper;131618 wrote:

Fatalism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
This backs me up since the other definition, the supernatural one, is not the definition they offer.

The second sentence, after your quote, reads: When argued for in the third way it is not now commonly referred to as "fatalism" at all, and such arguments will not be discussed here. In short, your source does not back you up, quite the contrary.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;131619 wrote:

Fatalism says that what will happen will happen whatever we do.

That's not the kind of fatalism that the article or (99% sure about this judging from context) the original poster is talking about. I just quoted the definition of fatalism from SEP but here's both of them.

Quote:

Fatalism is the view that we are powerless to do anything other than what we actually do.

Quote:

Causal determinism is, roughly speaking, the idea that every event is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions together with the laws of nature.

The original poster is asking if [causal] determinism implies/reduces to fatalism. I think it does but only if you think the laws of nature are real and causes actually have force rather than being derived in hindsight and abstract.

@Night Ripper,

Night Ripper;131623 wrote:

I think it does but only if you think the laws of nature are real and causes actually have force rather than being derived in hindsight and abstract.

Excellent point. If causality is just a way that humans structure their perceptions, it may not apply to the world-in-itself. Causality as a projection?

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Determinism and Fatalism: What's the Difference?

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