Evidence of Deity

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Pyrrho
 
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2010 05:31 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;121114 wrote:
Zetherin;121104 wrote:
And, for the record, in religion's case, it usually is not the doctrines that are culprit. None of the well-known religious doctrines instruct people to go out and murder others -



Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12)

You should not let a sorceress live.

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)

1)If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)

And the book (doctrine) goes on and on with supporting and encouraging killing. I guess you never read the bible.


To be fair to Zetherin, he or she did say "well-known religious doctrines". Most Christians know very little about their own religion. While we are at it, we may as well quote the words of Jesus regarding those old laws, as related in Matthew 5:

Quote:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


No detail of the law is to be changed, "till heaven and earth pass" and "all" is fulfilled. Therefore, good Christians are killing people left and right. It is only those Christians who ignore their god who fail to do such things.

Incidentally, it is Exodus 22:18 that states:

Quote:
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.


So, there are witches, and they should be killed, according to the Bible. In the 1600's, the good people of Salem acted as god commanded. Christians since then have fallen from the path of righteousness, as directed in the Bible.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2010 05:37 pm
@Pyrrho,
The laws of the old testament have not gone away but we are no longer bound by those laws thanks to Jesus(who fulfilled the law). The only laws that apply now are the laws of Christ and they aren't laws in terms of binding us to something but they are a means of liberating us.

See Romans 3:19-31

heck read all of Romans

Check out Galatians 3:15-29 too
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2010 06:10 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;121114 wrote:
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12)

You should not let a sorceress live.

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)

1)If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)

And the book (doctrine) goes on and on with supporting and encouraging killing. I guess you never read the bible.


From this you purport that the Christian religion advocates murder? Is that your point? So, for instance, if you were to ask a modern Christian pastor if he advocates murder, he would say "yes"?

As far as I know, and having gone to about six years of Christian school, Christianity, at least modern Christianity, does not advocate murder. In fact, it is commonly taught that murder is wrong.

I think it is safe to say what is commonly taught within the many denominations of Christianity is substantially different than much of the barbaric garbage within the Bible. Picking some verses out of the Bible and then asserting that the whole of Christianity advocates murder, doesn't seem reasonable. Not only doesn't it seem reasonable, it seems silly and blatantly false.
 
sword
 
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2010 09:28 pm
@jeeprs,
I am a Christian so I usually oppose death penalty except when the victims are children. God is Love but He is also Justice.
 
lifeson90
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 07:34 pm
@jeeprs,
I think the biggest question regarding a possible Almighty Creator sticks out like a blindingly obvious raging ******** for me now.... why don't we, the human race, at least have a go now at trying to establish whether or not a God might exist?

which naturally leads onto another, possibly more interesting, question...

How would we go about doing that?

The answer to me again is so blindingly obvious it knocks you to the floor and kicks you in the teeth with sheer simplicity...

Why don't we just ask Him to make his presence known?

I mean collectively, as a species, why don't we take a risk and invite the fella to come out and say yup you got it right folks I really am here it's about time I put you out your misery nice to meet you take me to your leaders etc

At which point the question then becomes probably much more interesting, like...

How would we invite Him to make his presence known? We can't just send an invite in the post, and even if we could why should He respond when He hasn't bothered all this time?

The answer is probably to make the invite something He finds truly appealing and extremely hard to refuse, even for a God, probably involving a huge element of risk - some sort of invite on a global scale maybe like a kind of worldwide event, all the world's His stage so-to-speak.

Yeah, if I was God I'd be tempted to react to something creative that a little effort and real sacrifice had been put into, I've an idea myself what might be so attractive to any potential God he couldn't resist making a response, but won't go into it right now...

just fancied making a contribution.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 07:58 pm
@lifeson90,
lifeson90;128748 wrote:

Why don't we just ask Him to make his presence known?


Well this also might be obvious, but you would have to believe there was someone to ask, wouldn't you? If you were convinced that God were a myth - and many are - then you would regard 'asking' as completely pointless.

And if you already believe there is a God who at least might respond, then the question goes away, doesn't it?
 
lifeson90
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 08:23 pm
@jeeprs,
No, I don't believe there is someone to ask, neither did I suggest there was... I'm merely alluding to probably the most important question that needs to be answered today, after all the knowledge we've collected in all the fields of human endeavour like science and philosophy and quantum mechanics and the rest of it there's still a question that hangs over everything regardless of whatever answers we find... for instance, if some great theoretical physicist suddenly had a eureka moment and managed to explain as well as a human being could why anything exists at all, some smart alec can still come along and say yeah your logic is pretty sound that's a pretty cool and mindblowing idea but hey everything could just be an illusion you can't even trust your own thoughts or judgment on issues like this, the fact remains however marvellous and beautiful and fully explanatory your ideas are there could still be a God who created everything, including the illusion of your own self and your own deceptive thoughts.. you believe 1+1 =2 but only because a God gave you a mind to reason like that.... the point is, the whole issue of God has been a monkey on our backs for aeons now and no attempt has actually been made to produce any kind of answer to the question, if it was anything else in the science fields for example we'd at least have had a crack at it by now but it isn't even a discussion when it comes to God...

by the way, I don't believe in God myself, I can't believe rational adult human beings in this century even take that 2000yr old fairy story even remotely seriously to be honest, but the concept of a sentient almighty and omnipotent being who created everything is so built into our consciousness and culture that the question at least has to be pondered, does God exist and how on earth can we go some way to proving it or not?

the question after that becomes how could we do it?

I'm suggesting we could present some sort of invitation to Him that's all, something that might appeal to Him so much he felt almost obliged to respond positively

I think these are perfectly straightforward and pertinent problems to address and I think they were worth mentioning.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 09:01 pm
@sword,
sword;121139 wrote:
I am a Christian so I usually oppose death penalty except when the victims are children.


The way I first read this sentence it sounded like the children were the victims of the otherwise prohibited execution. That shouldn't make me grin, but it does. I'm sorry.

---------- Post added 02-15-2010 at 10:02 PM ----------

lifeson90;128748 wrote:

Why don't we just ask Him to make his presence known?


He's shy. He's older now and the conversations at most parties bore him. Heaven is an extremely conservative place and they don't even have call waiting. The union up there won't let him hire another secretary. He can only respond to one in a million humans. I was lucky. He's real sorry to be so mysterious.
 
QuinticNon
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 09:09 pm
@lifeson90,
lifeson90;128758 wrote:
...the point is, the whole issue of God has been a monkey on our backs for aeons now...


Why is the "issue of God" a "monkey on our backs"?

Is your concern really an issue with God, or an issue with religion being used to support the hidden agenda of man?

lifeson90;128758 wrote:
and no attempt has actually been made to produce any kind of answer to the question,...


I've seen many attempts to "answer the question".

lifeson90;128758 wrote:
...if it was anything else in the science fields for example we'd at least have had a crack at it by now...


There are many who use science to infer the existence of God by way of inductive logic.


lifeson90;128758 wrote:
...but it isn't even a discussion when it comes to God...


That's what we're having now.

lifeson90;128758 wrote:
I can't believe rational adult human beings in this century even take that 2000yr old fairy story even remotely seriously...


Correct. There is no scientific evidence of fairy's, and thus, there is no reason to believe in such a fairy story. But fairy's are not God. And there is scientific evidence of God, and thus, there is a reason to believe in such a being.

lifeson90;128758 wrote:
...the concept of a sentient almighty and omnipotent being who created everything is so built into our consciousness and culture that the question at least has to be pondered, does God exist and how on earth can we go some way to proving it or not?


Some of those concepts come from religion. Some come from science, and some come from philosophy. You seem only concerned with the concepts presented by religion, and specifically concerned with vehemently rejecting them. What is your position on the God concepts presented by science and philosophy?

lifeson90;128758 wrote:
I'm suggesting we could present some sort of invitation to Him that's all, something that might appeal to Him so much he felt almost obliged to respond positively...


But now you're back to the religious God concept. What you describe is exactly what religion suggests we do. "Invite" God into your heart.

lifeson90;128758 wrote:
I think these are perfectly straightforward and pertinent problems to address and I think they were worth mentioning.


Me too.

---------- Post added 02-15-2010 at 09:20 PM ----------

Zetherin;121127 wrote:
I think it is safe to say what is commonly taught within the many denominations of Christianity is substantially different than much of the barbaric garbage within the Bible.


The problem arises from not understanding the difference between the Law of God and the Law of Moses. They are often conflated as the same things, but they are not. This is a great source of confusion for both Theists and Atheists alike.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 09:30 pm
@QuinticNon,
QuinticNon;128770 wrote:
The problem arises from not understanding the difference between the Law of God and the Law of Moses. They are often conflated as the same things, but they are not. This is a great source of confusion for both Theists and Atheists alike.


Spoken like a true gnostic! I salute you for that.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 09:35 pm
@sword,
sword;121139 wrote:
I am a Christian so I usually oppose death penalty except when the victims are children. God is Love but He is also Justice.

Sounds like a tough job, especially when "he" created the killers and the victims in the first place, according to so and so.

I'm not against sophisticated concepts of God, but if we are talking old-school personification, I feel the need to break some wind.
 
ChaosampComplexity
 
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 06:15 am
@Owen phil,
Owen wrote:

There cannot be things "beyond" existence at all.
Did God create his own existence??


I did not claim God exists Owen nor I am claiming God is a thing. A thing exist at least as a pattern - a real object or a mental construct. What makes you think that God can be under the category of things? Did you not know that to a believer, God 'caused' ALL things? There is a line between God and things. The Creator isn't the created. God and existence aren't in the same category. The mental construct one has in mind and say this is God isn't God but a mental construct, and thus can be in the category of a thing. But as a believer, I do not think that God is that which is something in the mind - in fact it is Biblically forbidden to worship things. This is why faith is needed. God isn't bounded by existence, God caused existence.

Quote:
x does exist, or, x does not exist ..is a tautology for all x's.


If x is a thing and if existence can be applicable to God, of course. However, existence isn't applicable to God, only to that which God caused. I know a thing and I have an experience of what I call existence, a chair for example exists. My direct experience of a chair or of my thoughts lead me to my view of what exists. In no way one can find God in these or around these things. At least so far, existence as I know it isn't God or an attribute of God but a creation of God (and I believe this by faith).

Quote:

Existence in the mind and existence in reality is "wanton obscurantism" at its best.
Reality is the total of all that exists.
No god can cause existence.


Reality includes the mind, but in no where one can find in it God. God isn't a mental construct - a mental construct is a mental construct whether we like it or not. This is not the God I am talking about, nor the Bible was talking about.

I would be more inclined to say that reality is a subset of all that exists but God will never be found in existence - for it is God that caused existence. I say this with faith, not with direct observation as if I'm assessing reality.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 10:45 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;121127 wrote:
From this you purport that the Christian religion advocates murder? Is that your point? So, for instance, if you were to ask a modern Christian pastor if he advocates murder, he would say "yes"?


When did I ever say that? I was referring to the bible itself for advocating such behavior. It would be like you handing out pamphlets that said, "Kill the president." But then you go around telling people that you promote peace, love and compassion. Seems like a contradiction doesn't it?

Zetherin;121127 wrote:

As far as I know, and having gone to about six years of Christian school, Christianity, at least modern Christianity, does not advocate murder. In fact, it is commonly taught that murder is wrong.


Well there must have been a time when murder was not wrong? Maybe it's different now? Good thing we discovered that it's wrong before more were put to death for their blasphemy.

Zetherin;121127 wrote:

I think it is safe to say what is commonly taught within the many denominations of Christianity is substantially different than much of the barbaric garbage within the Bible. Picking some verses out of the Bible and then asserting that the whole of Christianity advocates murder, doesn't seem reasonable. Not only doesn't it seem reasonable, it seems silly and blatantly false.


I know that not all Christians believe the bible, I know that not all Christians have fully read the bible. Perhaps if more did they might not be Christians.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 04:00 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;120077 wrote:
It is not anger, it is annoyance. I feel that these belief systems hold back human development. In some ways I feel they devalue certain things that should not be devalued. They also tend to be the indirect causality for additional pain and suffering in the world, because of their flawed method to fix social problems. I can't help but be reminded by all the thousands of individuals whom were prosecuted for challenging these belief systems. Many of them lost their lives or were imprisoned unfairly, so how anyone can accept these systems and ignore their history is just another slap in the face towards those who suffered needlessly. These beliefs have not earned any right to have their hands in the making of laws or moral systems.


I can sympathize completely with what you say here. But I can't help but think of Marx the intellectual atheist and the Stalinism (to name one example) that resulted from this. Men will generally have their gods. It may be an anthropomorphic deity or it may be Permanent Revolution or it may be Truth. It may be Doubt or Beauty. Some will serve these gods in decent ways and other in not so decent ways. Atheism can serve the selfish and malicious quite well, don't you think? It's like Edmund in King Lear. He calls Nature his Goddess, and he is mercilessly self-serving.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Tue 16 Feb, 2010 04:32 pm
@jeeprs,
The western world is full of those who have been spiritually traumatized by Christianity. I am starting to understand why. I have just been reading accounts of the 'Wars of Religion' and the Inquisition. It is unbelievably horrific. In the 16th century, more than 10% of the populations of many European regions were slaughtered by 'Catholic' or 'Protestant' armies. I think it has left a massive shadow in the western mind. The only comparable slaughter in Indian history was when the Mughals over-ran Buddhist India. Millions were slaughtered then, also, the Buddhist civilization of India came to an end.

I am also reading up on Martin Luther at the moment. He was an immense personality, of course, and hugely influential. But, at risk of eternal perdition, I venture the idea that he was a man who really lacked self-knowledge. I think he had massive inner conflicts which he projected outward onto the Cosmos and called God and the Devil. In fact I can't help but agree that Christianity as an institution is extravagantly mistaken in some fundamental and tragic ways. I can't help but think it all goes back to the Crucifixion. It is after all a cosmic religion that is based on the execution of an innocent man for political and ideological reasons. I think if you can't develop a 'spiritual anthropology' that allows you to make sense of this event, then misery will always follow. When you think of the tortuous justifications that have plagued history and the consequences of this act of barbarism, your blood runs cold.

So here I would like to suggest that it is a tragedy that it ever happened. I don't think it was intended to happen, or that it is all part of a plan. I think Jesus spoke a truth that the establishment of his day really wasn't ready to hear, and they executed him as a result. And Western culture has tied itself up in knots trying to figure out why ever since. This is probably utmost heresy to Christians, but if I were Christian, I would be Gnostic, and I think among the gnostics, there were some who saw it like this.

So we really in a fine mess on account of all this. And it is coming to some kind of catastrophic climax, I feel, although not at all of the kind, or for the reasons, that most Christians feel that it is. Because so much of it has been a huge mistake, a catastrophic accumulation of misunderstandings, echoing through the corridors of civilization.

There, I've said it.
 
 

 
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