I think I detect in a lot of your contributions on religious topics a distinct anger about god or religion. I guess you have a reason for this. I personally don't feel the same way about it though. So this is not an analogy I would use. I have spent a lot of time studying religions and spiritual ideas. When I set out, I didn't realise what a large part of my life it would become. But one result is that I have 'made peace' with it. I know people are capable of stupid and dreadful things in the name of what they think of religion. But I just see that as the worst aspect of human nature now. I don't blame God for it any more.

What are you looking for...?

It is not anger, it is annoyance. I feel that these belief systems hold back human development. In some ways I feel they devalue certain things that should not be devalued. They also tend to be the indirect causality for additional pain and suffering in the world, because of their flawed method to fix social problems. I can't help but be reminded by all the thousands of individuals whom were prosecuted for challenging these belief systems. Many of them lost their lives or were imprisoned unfairly, so how anyone can accept these systems and ignore their history is just another slap in the face towards those who suffered needlessly. These beliefs have not earned any right to have their hands in the making of laws or moral systems.

well it's enough for me. Maybe I'm easily satisfied.

Well I agree that the scientific account of the development of species can proceed without reference to Deity. However I don't believe that life is 'self-originating', on the basis that nothing in experience is self-originating. In this sense, I accept the various forms of the cosmological argument, that being has an original cause. However I realise this is not a scientific argument, really more of a value judgement, but one I am happy to make. So philosophically I find myself more aligned with theistic evolution (as distinct from creationism) which has been developed in various forms by various philosophers.

As I said to you, somewhere else on the forum, I am not a churchgoer or member or religious in that sense. But at the same time, I have had experience of truly charitable and marvellous religious people, and have come to recognise the importance of spiritual principles such as those that underlie Christianity. So, yes, the inquisition jailed and tortured, and there are religious bigots, but also, this very day, there are millions of people being fed by charities, being cared for in religiously-inspired hospitals, and the like. Don't they count for anything? Why do you only see the negatives? And if Dawkins et al had their way, and the religious foundations of Western civilization were utterly abandoned, what value system would you replace it with?

There are many non religious organizations that provide the same sort of thing. You think charity is religiously motivated? That it is exclusive to only those who are spiritual? No. You don't have to be religious at all to be a charitable person.

But, to be consistent, we should also apply this logic to the reversal. We should not blame religion because of the past events which have happened in the name of religion. It isn't religion's fault, it's the people's fault!

Religion is created by people and given power by people. It is not an entity all by itself nor self created. Religion IS the people. Despite how bad that grammar is, if it isn't then what exactly is religion? Where did it come from and what does it want, if it is free from the influences of people?

People often use abstract notions as scapegoats for their own transgressions.

That religion is the scape goat for people to feel better about themselves? I don't understand.

This is why religion gets a bad name.

In the beginning religion was not necessary, but because of man`s rebellion against the absolute (God) religion became necessary to reconcile man to his Creator.
Pagan idolatry causes hunger and misery but thank Luther`s Reformation people could see the Light of the Revelation. That`s why the most developed countries in the world are not pagan or atheistic (India, Albania, etc) but the countries that were illuminated by the truth of the Gospel. Sadly moral values are being forgotten because of esoteric and relativistic human secularism.

Great stuff. Evangelical atheist on one side, evangelical christian on the other. Its groundhog day, all over again. Pity, it had been a nice thread.