A possible solution to why is there something rather than nothing.

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vectorcube
 
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 12:02 pm
@Bhaktajan,
Bhaktajan;97430 wrote:
Vector wrote:
"I maintain that the universe is infinite, because the evidence suggest there is not enough mass to slow the expansion of space."

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But, the 'whole system' is a Whole unit onto itself. The Universe may be expanding ---but it is a singular entity that is being referred to. So it is a quanitifable entity.



Infinite here means that if you travel from r in one direction, then you will not return to r.
 
Bhaktajan
 
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 12:12 pm
@vectorcube,
Infinite here means that if you travel from r in one direction, then you will not return to r.

OK, but there can be drawn a 'finite' line between r1 to r2 ---thus illustrating a topographic view.

I have reason to propose that there is a vantage point from whence the whole can be seen ---albeit a very distant Birds' eye view vantage point.
 
xris
 
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 12:45 pm
@Bhaktajan,
The question of infinite, there is no such thing. The universe is not infinite and it can never be so . If you ever reach that point when you can make that claim then its not infinite and if you can say i can travel forever tell me when exactly you will tell me that? its an illusion just like nothing.

So now we have a glimpse of an opinion, it has been stated it could be an internal event, the bb. Could we elaborate and tell me why it was invisible, the start of this event and also the cause? If no opinion is forthcoming i must presume its a mystery.
 
EmperorNero
 
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 03:25 pm
@vectorcube,
The purpose of the universe is to create me.

---------- Post added 10-14-2009 at 11:30 PM ----------

Nothingness is only a natural state from the perspective of somethingness. If there were nothing, there was also no consciousness to wonder why there is nothing. Thus the two states are completely neutral.
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 04:44 pm
@vectorcube,
Let's say we take a right turn here and just keep on heading to the east. Just keep on going.

Past Jupiter, past Pluto, out into the great beyond and continue.

Out of this solar system and into the next galaxy and passing galaxy after galaxy. Still heading in a straight line.

What would we head into? Would we reach a place at some point where the universe would become something else? The border between the universe and whatever contains the universe. The place where reality becomes something else. Is there an end to the universe if we continue to travel in a straight line without stopping? Would we just continue to move forever? No matter how long we traveled, if we did not stop, we would have to have always continued to get to a different location wouldnt we? So where would we be if we just kept on going?
 
EmperorNero
 
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 04:55 pm
@vectorcube,
It would probably like walking in one directin on earth. You wouldn't fall off the earth at some point.
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 04:56 pm
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;97504 wrote:
It would probably like walking in one directin on earth. You wouldn't fall off the earth at some point.



Quite different I'm afraid, no gravity in space.
 
EmperorNero
 
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 05:14 pm
@Pathfinder,
I meant that it's on another level of course. The earth is finite, but by walking in one direction we wouldn't ever get to the end.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 05:32 pm
@SammDickens,
Samm;96895 wrote:
I consider it controversial. But I am the village idiot. What right have I to an opinion?

Samm


Everyone has a legal right to an opinion. But, to have an intellectual right to an opinion,you have an obligation to be informed.
 
vectorcube
 
Reply Thu 15 Oct, 2009 01:41 am
@xris,
xris;97441 wrote:
The question of infinite, there is no such thing. The universe is not infinite and it can never be so . If you ever reach that point when you can make that claim then its not infinite and if you can say i can travel forever tell me when exactly you will tell me that? its an illusion just like nothing.

So now we have a glimpse of an opinion, it has been stated it could be an internal event, the bb. Could we elaborate and tell me why it was invisible, the start of this event and also the cause? If no opinion is forthcoming i must presume its a mystery.



The reason i think the universe is infinite is because scientists found that there is not enough matter content to stop the expansion of space. To me, it seems to just be an empirical fact.
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Thu 15 Oct, 2009 02:30 am
@vectorcube,
vectorcube;97573 wrote:
The reason i think the universe is infinite is because scientists found that there is not enough matter content to stop the expansion of space. To me, it seems to just be an empirical fact.



You cannot even define infinite. What does that mean?

To say that something is infinite is just another way of saying you have no idea how far it goes or how big it is or how long it lasts.

Infinite simply means , " I don't know!"
 
Caroline
 
Reply Thu 15 Oct, 2009 02:39 am
@vectorcube,
Infinite means that goes on for eternity, that's a very long time eh Pathfinder?
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Thu 15 Oct, 2009 03:02 am
@Bhaktajan,
We do not necessarily have something out of nothing. It's possible that there "was never nothing, and there was no origin at all".


Many models of the universe posit an eternal universe, or an eternal system of universes (a multiverse). This means that something caused the Big Bang, and before that time goes backwards into infinity the same way we imagine it going forwards forever.


This is certainly not proven, but it makes a very direct kind of sense. As you say, "science has proven that something cannot come out of nothing." This refers to the law of conservation, which says matter and energy cannot be created (or destroyed).
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Thu 15 Oct, 2009 03:04 am
@Caroline,
Caroline;97587 wrote:
Infinite means that goes on for eternity, that's a very long time eh Pathfinder?


define eternity Caroline.

What does it mean?

It means that you do not know how long something will last.
 
vectorcube
 
Reply Thu 15 Oct, 2009 03:09 am
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;97584 wrote:
You cannot even define infinite. What does that mean?

To say that something is infinite is just another way of saying you have no idea how far it goes or how big it is or how long it lasts.

Infinite simply means , " I don't know!"


An infinite universe just amount to saying that the large scale structure of space-time is flat in our universe.

The universe is big. In fact, It is infinitly big. It is not intuitive at all.
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Thu 15 Oct, 2009 03:10 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;97590 wrote:
We do not necessarily have something out of nothing. It's possible that there "was never nothing, and there was no origin at all".


Many models of the universe posit an eternal universe, or an eternal system of universes (a multiverse). This means that something caused the Big Bang, and before that time goes backwards into infinity the same way we imagine it going forwards forever.


This is certainly not proven, but it makes a very direct kind of sense. As you say, "science has proven that something cannot come out of nothing." This refers to the law of conservation, which says matter and energy cannot be created (or destroyed).




You may or may not be right Alan.

But infinity and eternity are really just ways of us saying we give up trying to understand it. There is no way for a person to argue infinity because it is by defintion undefinable.

Its the old, 'well thats just the way it is' defense.

I think there is a boundary that we should not try to step over when it comes to trying to understand origin. It is obvious that as soon as we go there it becomes impossible for us to remain in the realm of logic.

As vectorcube has clearly stated, the best we can do is say 'Its big, really really big!'
 
vectorcube
 
Reply Thu 15 Oct, 2009 03:13 am
@Caroline,
Caroline;97587 wrote:
Infinite means that goes on for eternity, that's a very long time eh Pathfinder?


Very long time, miss Caroline.:detective:
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Thu 15 Oct, 2009 03:15 am
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;97509 wrote:
I meant that it's on another level of course. The earth is finite, but by walking in one direction we wouldn't ever get to the end.


Why not?

Walking around a globe is not a comparison because you are walking in circles. Are you suggesting that the universe is a globe and that one would end up back where they started?

---------- Post added 10-15-2009 at 04:18 AM ----------

vectorcube;97598 wrote:
Very long time, miss Caroline.:detective:


you cannot equate time with eternity or infinity.

We can measure time as a passage of events.

What though is the definition of eternity? You cannot define it as a long time if time is something that is measurable, because if eternity is measurable your statement is nonsenical. is lost.
 
vectorcube
 
Reply Thu 15 Oct, 2009 03:19 am
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;97600 wrote:
Why not?

Walking around a globe is not a comparison because you are walking in circles. Are you suggesting that the universe is a globe and that one would end up back where they started?


Universe is infinite. So if you walk in one direction in the universe, you get to see infinite many things.:brickwall:

---------- Post added 10-15-2009 at 04:25 AM ----------

Quote:

you cannot equate time with eternity or infinity.

We can measure time as a passage of events.

What though is the definition of eternity? You cannot define it as a long time if time is something that is measurable, because if eternity is measurable your statement is nonsenical. is lost.


What about time as in the proper time of the space ship going on and on forever in an infinite universe?

I think "eternity" is invented by hippies. It is a beautiful word.
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Thu 15 Oct, 2009 03:26 am
@vectorcube,
vectorcube;97602 wrote:
Universe is infinite. So if you walk in one direction in the universe, you get to see infinite many things.:brickwall:



I am not talking about what one would see along the way, I am discussing what one would see when they get to the farthest reaches, the end of the line, that point where the universe ends or changes into something else. To put it into words is difficult because we begin to lose the ability to remain in the realm of logic.

But if we actually open our minds and suppose ourselves walking all the way to the edge of the universe, what would we find if we crossed that border? Is there a border to cross. How can something just go on forever without end?

What exactly do we mean when we say infinity and eternity? What is there at that point where we enter infinity and leave behind measurable time?
 
 

 
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