Where in the "chain of being" does "experience" end

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prothero
 
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2009 10:16 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;95709 wrote:
What we are reaching for here is a way of demonstrating that conscious awareness - 'experience' - is intrinsic to the fabric of being, not simply an epiphenomenon that has appeared fortuitously via evolution and genetics. .


Although ultimately I agree with you. I am actually after something much simpler here. I am not after a universal mind or cosmic consciousness. I am merely after what "actual entities" which animals, which plants, which complex systems, have mind or any properties of mind at all?

Clarifying what is the most primitive form of mentality and what posseses it.
The first step in a non materialist non mechanistic view of the universe.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2009 11:03 pm
@prothero,
actually it wasn't really what I set out to write, but I sidetracked myself. What I was working towards writing was whether there is a way in which the operations of conscious awareness can be understood as lawful in an analagous fashion to those governing the motions of bodies, or any other lawful phenomena. As in 'natural law'. Found this relevant journal abstract:

Quote:
Before the Darwinian revolution many biologists considered organic forms to be determined by natural law like atoms or crystals and therefore necessary, intrinsic and immutable features of the world order, which will occur throughout the cosmos wherever there is life. The search for the natural determinants of organic form-the celebrated "Laws of Form"-was seen as one of the major tasks of biology. After Darwin, this Platonic conception of form was abandoned and natural selection, not natural law, was increasingly seen to be the main, if not the exclusive, determinant of organic form. However, in the case of one class of very important organic forms-the basic protein folds-advances in protein chemistry since the early 1970s have revealed that they represent a finite set of natural forms, determined by a number of generative constructional rules, like those which govern the formation of atoms or crystals, in which functional adaptations are clearly secondary modifications of primary "givens of physics." The folds are evidently determined by natural law, not natural selection, and are "lawful forms" in the Platonic and pre-Darwinian sense of the word, which are bound to occur everywhere in the universe where the same 20 amino acids are used for their construction. We argue that this is a major discovery which has many important implications regarding the origin of proteins, the origin of life and the fundamental nature of organic form. We speculate that it is unlikely that the folds will prove to be the only case in nature where a set of complex organic forms is determined by natural law, and suggest that natural law may have played a far greater role in the origin and evolution of life than is currently assumed.


From The protein folds as platonic forms: new support f...[J Theor Biol. 2002] - PubMed Result

---------- Post added 10-07-2009 at 04:26 PM ----------

So to connect those two posts - (1) the nature of conscious experience is elusive because it is not and cannot be an object in its own right but (2) there might be a way to understand it as an outcome of expression of natural law rather than as an accidental byproduct of a 'blind process'.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 04:54 am
@prothero,
prothero;95710 wrote:
I am merely after what "actual entities" which animals, which plants, which complex systems, have mind or any properties of mind at all?

Clarifying what is the most primitive form of mentality and what posseses it.
The first step in a non materialist non mechanistic view of the universe.


Actually the point I was making about the difficulty of knowing the nature of conscious awareness is not just 'general mysticism'. It really is an observation about why your question is difficult in the first place. I am trying to articulate "Why is the nature of the question 'what is experience' so difficult? What is it that makes it so difficult to give an account of experience'?

The way you have written the question above reduces it to a simple question of taxonomy; somebody here will nominate some primitive creature and say 'well in this creature there is the evidence of some consciousness/cognition/experience etc'. Because if you are defining experience in terms of the capability of this or that creature, then you are really conforming to the naturalistic account of experience and playing right into the hands that you are presumably trying to avoid.
 
paulhanke
 
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 09:29 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;95716 wrote:
So to connect those two posts - (1) the nature of conscious experience is elusive because it is not and cannot be an object in its own right but (2) there might be a way to understand it as an outcome of expression of natural law rather than as an accidental byproduct of a 'blind process'.


... but where a process metaphysics takes you is that "processual forms" are at least ontologically on a par with (if not prior to) "material forms" ... take the protein example - it is "a number of generative constructional rules, like those which govern the formation of atoms or crystals" that generate the contingent material forms of proteins ... to paraphrase, the processual form of protein folding is what creates the material form of a folded protein ... but at the same time, the material forms of folded proteins is what creates the processual form of protein binding ... so is this creative back-and-forth interplay between processual forms and material forms itself a natural law? ... and would calling it a natural law make it any less "blind"? ... is experience a processual form or a material form? ... or is this a false dichotomy at the level of complexity of experience? ...
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 02:35 pm
@prothero,
Would calling it a natural law make it any less blind?...maybe there is a way in which we can understand mind to be constitutive, not derivative - not just an outcome, but a cause. As in some other discussions, I can almost sense a way in which 'life grows towards awareness' almost as though consciousness is an inherent tendency or latency. But let's see what else comes up.
 
paulhanke
 
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 03:03 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;95875 wrote:
...maybe there is a way in which we can understand mind to be constitutive, not derivative - not just an outcome, but a cause.


... is it possible to be both derivative and constitutive at once? ... in a substance metaphysics that takes its cue from the atemporality (reversibility) of particle physics, no ... in a mainstream philosophy that wields atemporal logic as the key to understanding the world, no ... but as Bateson points out (in a chapter facetiously titled "Every Schoolboy Knows ..."), atemporal logic sucks as a model of cause and effect and leads you right into Zeno-like paradoxes when sequences of cause and effect become circular ... as cybernetics points out, a process that feeds back onto itself can turn a wildly erratic process into a homeostatic one ... and so isn't such a process at once both derivative and constitutive of itself? ...
 
paulhanke
 
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 09:44 pm
@paulhanke,
... a Peircian (semiotic) approach to experience:

Quote:
Experiences are fossilized signs or quasistable forms of movement that organize the system's past forms of movement in such a way as to have significant consequences for the system's future movement. As signifying they are triadic by nature and thus involve (i) the physical carrier of 'the fossil' (the representamen), (ii) its reference to its significance (the object), and (iii) its potential or actual future-directed effects (the interpretant(s)). The intensification of the sign process takes place at several levels, it is at once physical, biological and psychic. With the emergence of coded autocatalytic life on cell form, the semiotic freedom is intensified at the biological level. Here semiotic intensification manifests itself both by the appearance of qualitative irritability (in cells who selectively can respond to stimuli) and by the emergence of code-duality in the form of cell-lines (with a digital as well as an analog aspect) incorporating past experiences into the future.
(Claus Emmeche, "Causal Processes, Semiosis, and Consciousness": http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.63.1819&rep=rep1&type=pdf)

... this view is similar to your "perceive/act/remember" criteria for experience, but also discusses consciousness as a qualitative bifurcation of experience that arises at the transition from causal processes that are not "self-movers" (vegetatives) and those that are (animals) ... Emmeche also interestingly points out that even species (as causal processes) are experiencers (where the fossilized signs are DNA) ... while this was one of those "exciting" reads for me, I'm not quite sure how well it will go over with a panpsychic and a mystic Wink ...
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2009 10:46 pm
@prothero,
I am not sure either but it sure looks interesting. It seems a lot closer, philosophically, to phenomenology that to materialism, and as such leaves a lot more room for interpretation. Actually the way the term 'experience' is defined in that quote can't help but remind me of the yogic term 'samskara':

Quote:
The imprints left on the subconscious mind by experience (from this or previous lives), which then color all of life, one's nature, responses, states of mind, etc.


and also, once again, Sheldrake's morphic resonance which he compared to 'the habits of nature'

[QUOTE]
morphic resonance leads to stable morphic fields, which are significantly easier to tune into. He suggests that this is the means by which simpler organic forms synergetically self-organize into more complex ones, and that this model allows a different explanation for the process of evolution itself, as an addition to the Darwin's evolutionary processes of selection and variation
[/QUOTE]
 
Kielicious
 
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2009 10:10 pm
@prothero,
prothero;94945 wrote:
At what point in the "chain of existence" does "experience" disappear?


Tis a good question that I too have thought about but couldnt seem to entirely wrap my mind around. The dichotomy (if my assumption is correct) would be either: all things have 'experience', or 'experience' is emergent. The latter seems to be the more appropriate in my opinion because the 'chain of existence' explicitly shows emergent properties all throughout its heirarchical structure.



[quote=prothero]On what basis does one deny "experience" to lower forms of life?[/quote]
prothero wrote:

On what basis does one deny "experience" to quantum particles or events?



Panpsychism has intuitive appeal but Im curious as to how you would justify a rock being endowed with subjective experience, seeing how the prior question of, "How would you know?" entails a rational response -rather than empirical evidence- which would inevitably leave one speechless by their very own question.
 
prothero
 
Reply Sat 10 Oct, 2009 08:57 pm
@jeeprs,
[QUOTE=jeeprs;95744] Actually the point I was making about the difficulty of knowing the nature of conscious awareness is not just 'general mysticism'. It really is an observation about why your question is difficult in the first place. I am trying to articulate "Why is the nature of the question 'what is experience' so difficult? What is it that makes it so difficult to give an account of experience'? .[/QUOTE]We all have "experience" and take it for granted. Most of us do not reflect deeply on just what we mean by "experience" or what "experience" in the broadest sense consists of. Experience is not a synonym for "self awareness","self reflection", thought, language or other higher forms of mind. As used here, we are seeking to find the source of these higher forms of mind in deeper more simple forms of experience. In fact I would argue we all have multiple experiences all the time only a few of which rise to the level of "conscious awareness". The higher levels of mind may be a refined or higher level of some more extensive, pervasive or even universal property or phenomena of nature. Experience does not "emerge" from matter with absolutely no capacity for experience (inert and insensate). This is not a call for "universal mind" or "cosmic awareness" but merely to consider the notion that "experience" in its most primitive and simplest form is a universal or widespread feature of nature. That is the notion commonly termed panpsychism which is not dualism, not idealism, not supernatural, not religion but a form of monism and a different view of reality.

"mind that abides nowhere must come forth" The Diamond Sutra

"The terms of physics do not capture the essence or nature of experience" Strawson
"physicalism is a position we can not understand because we do not at present have any conception of how it might be true" Nagel.

[QUOTE=jeeprs;95744] The way you have written the question above reduces it to a simple question of taxonomy; somebody here will nominate some primitive creature and say 'well in this creature there is the evidence of some consciousness/cognition/experience etc'. Because if you are defining experience in terms of the capability of this or that creature, then you are really conforming to the naturalistic account of experience and playing right into the hands that you are presumably trying to avoid. [/QUOTE]The purpose of posing the question that way is to show that it is not a simple question of taxonomy. If mind is not pervasive and wide spread in nature then at some point mind emerges from no-mind. The presumption of materialists is that matter is explicitly devoid of mind and experience. That most of nature is devoid of mind and that at some point mind emerges.
If this were true one should be able to say roughly when mind emerged, where mind emerged and why mind emerged.
One should have some idea of when and in what organism or systems mind exists or emerges.
One should have some concept of what organisms possess mind and which ones do not and some explanation for the division.
When in the development of a human embryo does mind appear?
In fact materialism and emergence provide no convincing answers to even the most basic of questions. Even the simplest of questions about the presence or absence of mind pose intractable problems for the objective materialist deterministic view. It is time to consider other possibilities.
Where does mind reside? No where? or perhaps everywhere.

---------- Post added 10-10-2009 at 08:18 PM ----------

[QUOTE=Kielicious;96149] Tis a good question that I too have thought about but couldn't seem to entirely wrap my mind around. The dichotomy (if my assumption is correct) would be either: all things have 'experience', or 'experience' is emergent. The latter seems to be the more appropriate in my opinion because the 'chain of existence' explicitly shows emergent properties all throughout its hierarchical structure. [/QUOTE]
There is no physicalist theory of mind or even any plausible explanation for how mind could emerge form mindless inert insensate matter. Even the simplest of questions about what entities possess mind or when and how mind emerged are incomprehensible from a materialist viewpoint. One should at least entertain the notion that human like consciousness is the result of the integration and combination of more primitive properties of experience which are more widespread and pervasive in nature than is generally appreciated. The panpsychic alternative to physicalism and dualism at least deserves rational consideration.


[QUOTE=Kielicious;96149] Panpsychism has intuitive appeal but Im curious as to how you would justify a rock being endowed with subjective experience, seeing how the prior question of, "How would you know?" entails a rational response -rather than empirical evidence- which would inevitably leave one speechless by their very own question. [/QUOTE]The typical position would be that rocks as simple aggregates or composites do not have any form of combinational, higher mentality or unified experience. The fundamental constituents of rocks (elementary particles would either have or posses the innate property of primitive experience. Higher forms of experience would only be available to sufficiently complex structures, societies or organisms.
Rocks are not conscious.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 03:00 am
@prothero,
You should learn from your experiences and let it allow you to grow and expand and move forward.
Thanks.
 
Kielicious
 
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 07:25 pm
@prothero,



[quote=prothero]There is no physicalist theory of mind or even any plausible explanation for how mind could emerge form mindless inert insensate matter.[/quote]

I beg to differ, but I'll instead ask you the same question towards everything else in existence: how does water emerge from non-water? how does language emerge from non-language? how does life emerge from non-life? etc. As you can see your question can be applied to everything else in existence but why, and on what grounds, is mind somehow exempt from the following criteria?


[quote=prothero]Even the simplest of questions about what entities possess mind or when and how mind emerged are incomprehensible from a materialist viewpoint. [/quote]

Correction: from ALL viewpoints.

[quote=prothero]One should at least entertain the notion that human like consciousness is the result of the integration and combination of more primitive properties of experience which are more widespread and pervasive in nature than is generally appreciated. The panpsychic alternative to physicalism and dualism at least deserves rational consideration. [/quote]

I agree. I am willing to entertain the idea but you got alot of work ahead of you to show how these primitive properties of experience exist. Please do tell how you know all this...


[quote=prothero]The typical position would be that rocks as simple aggregates or composites do not have any form of combinational, higher mentality or unified experience. The fundamental constituents of rocks (elementary particles would either have or posses the innate property of primitive experience. Higher forms of experience would only be available to sufficiently complex structures, societies or organisms.
Rocks are not conscious.[/QUOTE]

I understand that rocks dont have a conscious experience that is on par with us humans -no one is going to argue that- but again the question is how do you know that everything (including elementary particles) are endowed with an innate property of experience? when the implication of your own question of, "How would you know?" entails one to be completely mute, and the point moot.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Sun 11 Oct, 2009 09:35 pm
@prothero,
This might be relevant - research on whether Bacteria can 'learn'.
 
paulhanke
 
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 09:25 am
@prothero,
prothero;96629 wrote:
Experience does not "emerge" from matter with absolutely no capacity for experience (inert and insensate)


... I think this statement may reflect a misunderstanding of emergence (as opposed to British Emergentism?) ... emergence is not a material matter (pardon the pun Smile) ... emergence is about organization and dynamics ... emergents do not emerge from matter; emergents emerge as a result of organization and dynamics ... and in fact, matter itself may be an emergent (if Chaisson is right, matter emerged from the dynamics an expanding universe forced upon the energy plasma that was all that there was at the beginning of our universe) ... this is a form of physicalism (a "some wholes are more than the sum of their parts" response to the "every whole is exactly the sum of its parts" of materialism) ... I think to deny that emergence occurs is to default to materialism (since the observed properties of the world cannot be a result of organization and dynamics, they must be a result of the summed properties of matter) or else appeal to the supernatural ... in which case a non-supernatural panpsychism is a form of materialism, is it not? ... and materialism seems to deny the possibility of creativity in this world - if everything that appears in this world must first be a property of matter, then nothing is ever created but only expressed ... is this consistent with your observations of creativity? ... it is not consistent with mine ...
[/COLOR]
 
prothero
 
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 08:12 pm
@paulhanke,
paulhanke;96898 wrote:
... I think this statement may reflect a misunderstanding of emergence (as opposed to British Emergentism?) ... emergence is not a material matter (pardon the pun Smile) ... emergence is about organization and dynamics ... emergents do not emerge from matter; emergents emerge as a result of organization and dynamics ... and in fact, matter itself may be an emergent (if Chaisson is right, matter emerged from the dynamics an expanding universe forced upon the energy plasma that was all that there was at the beginning of our universe) ... this is a form of physicalism (a "some wholes are more than the sum of their parts" response to the "every whole is exactly the sum of its parts" of materialism) ... I think to deny that emergence occurs is to default to materialism (since the observed properties of the world cannot be a result of organization and dynamics, they must be a result of the summed properties of matter) or else appeal to the supernatural ... in which case a non-supernatural panpsychism is a form of materialism, is it not? ... and materialism seems to deny the possibility of creativity in this world - if everything that appears in this world must first be a property of matter, then nothing is ever created but only expressed ... is this consistent with your observations of creativity? ... it is not consistent with mine ...
[/COLOR]

Panpsychism is typically addressed to materialism and emergence as an alternative way of viewing the problem of mind (an alternative meta philosophy)..

I would regard creativity as the ultimate metaphysical ontologic prinicple and process as the mechanism. Both the material and the mental could be said to emerge from underlying process with creativity as the ultimate value.

It is not so much an argument against "emergence" as a general phenomena as an argument against physicalism and "emergence" as a theory of mind. Panpsychism, panexperientialism would be alternative meta theories of mind. Almost all panpsychists have a monistic worldview and most of them appear to have a process view of reality.
 
BrightNoon
 
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 08:25 pm
@Leonard,
In my view, experience is not a unique result of certain structures (human brain e.g.) and not others (fern e.g.); rather, experience is nothing other than being, from a perspective. Or rather, becoming, but that's another issue. In other words, anything which exists, experiences. What determines the nature of a thing's phenomenological world? The nature of that thing: i.e. its perspective. Per spectare: to see through. What? Itself.

We construct our own realities. As thing, externally existent (I presume), I am interacting with other things in the external world, and that interaction determines the manner in which I divide the world: i.e. individuate the monism (e.g. to distinguish a tree from the squirrel on its branch, as something seperate). Being-from-that-perspective is simply experiencing the world so divided; experiencing objects and their relations to one another. So my interactions (as a thing in the external world) determine my experiences (as myself in the familiar phenomenological world). The same with all other things, stones, ferns, etc.

We can imagine that the phenomenological world of a chimp is somewhat like our own, though simpler. Perhaps we can conceive of what a dog's world may be like, but as we attempt to consider the experience of being things which are increasingly unlike ourselves (have different structures) we approach absurdity. While I can say with confidence that a fern, and indeed a stone, and a proton all 'have experience,' I can in no way define that experience more specifically than to say that it is the state of being form the perspective of the fern, stone, proton, etc.

---------- Post added 10-12-2009 at 10:52 PM ----------

Kielicious;96813 wrote:
I understand that rocks dont have a conscious experience that is on par with us humans -no one is going to argue that- but again the question is how do you know that everything (including elementary particles) are endowed with an innate property of experience? when the implication of your own question of, "How would you know?" entails one to be completely mute, and the point moot.


Materialism cannot explain, describe, or account for experience or consciousness at all. It does not deal in experienced phenomena; it deals in empirical observation. Therefore, science can determine if something is conscious only by observing it's behavior or physical structure. But how then does science know what sort of behavior or structure to associate with consciousness? Obviously, the only consciousness we are certain exists is our own, so likeness to our own behavior and physical structure become the criteria for determining consciousness. As we try to determine whether or not other species/things are conscious, materialism has only those criteria: i.e. how similiar is the biology of the specie/thing to our own?

Materialism claims that consciousness arises from a brain, i.e. that consciousness arises only from a certain physical structure and not others - but you cannot explain HOW consciousness arises from that structure - you cannot explain what properties in that structure, which are absent in others, allow it to generate experience. And, you fail to recognize that this is an impossible task, because science deals only in physical properties and consciousness is not defined in terms of physical properties.

The claim which requires proof is the materialist (i.e. that consciousness arises from a certain physical structure only), not the other, which rests on the simple logic that, in absence of a demonstration of HOW consciousness arises from only certain physical structures, there is no reason to assume that consciousness is limited only to those structures.
 
Kielicious
 
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 11:50 pm
@BrightNoon,
BrightNoon;97060 wrote:

Materialism cannot explain, describe, or account for experience or consciousness at all. It does not deal in experienced phenomena; it deals in empirical observation. Therefore, science can determine if something is conscious only by observing it's behavior or physical structure. But how then does science know what sort of behavior or structure to associate with consciousness? Obviously, the only consciousness we are certain exists is our own, so likeness to our own behavior and physical structure become the criteria for determining consciousness. As we try to determine whether or not other species/things are conscious, materialism has only those criteria: i.e. how similiar is the biology of the specie/thing to our own?


As I have said before, dont try and point the finger at ONLY 'materialism' (I hate fossilized terminology like that one) for not being able to explain consciousness -for ALL viewpoint CANNOT explain consciousness. We cannot know what is or is not an experiential entity as of right now, and this is noted by the contrasting statements in your reply. Saying everything has 'experience' is equivalent to creationists saying 'goddidit' for X phenomenon -there is no explanatory power in that statement.

Brightnoon wrote:
Materialism claims that consciousness arises from a brain, i.e. that consciousness arises only from a certain physical structure and not others - but you cannot explain HOW consciousness arises from that structure - you cannot explain what properties in that structure, which are absent in others, allow it to generate experience.


This is true that I cannot explain how consciousness arises from the brain, but at least I am capable of saying that I cant. The truth is, is that no one knows how experience can come from matter, and I can only hope you can recognize this as well and stop pointing the finger at science for not having the answer immediately. As we have seen in the past, 'phenomenal gaps' have been closed and explained away. There is no reason to give up on a problem and say that science cannot explain it. Likewise, there is no reason to say that since we cannot now that 'materialism' (ugh) is false.


Brightnoon wrote:
And, you fail to recognize that this is an impossible task, because science deals only in physical properties and consciousness is not defined in terms of physical properties.


That is not true at all. From certain physicalist perspectives consciousness is a process of the brain which thus renders it a physical phenomenon.

Brightnoon wrote:
The claim which requires proof is the materialist (i.e. that consciousness arises from a certain physical structure only), not the other, which rests on the simple logic that, in absence of a demonstration of HOW consciousness arises from only certain physical structures, there is no reason to assume that consciousness is limited only to those structures.


Again, not true at all.

Panpsychism is asserting a positive claim about reality and therefore has the burden. Obviously, from posting here you and others are aware of my particular stance on this subject. However, in this thread I am not asserting anything but rather rejecting his claim -that is all. The burden is not on me, it is most definitely on the one asserting the claim (i.e. the OP). Also, I fail to see how it is 'simple logic' that everything in existence is endowed with conscious experience, but maybe thats just me...
 
paulhanke
 
Reply Tue 13 Oct, 2009 09:56 am
@prothero,
prothero;97056 wrote:
I would regard creativity as the ultimate metaphysical ontologic prinicple and process as the mechanism. Both the material and the mental could be said to emerge from underlying process with creativity as the ultimate value.

It is not so much an argument against "emergence" as a general phenomena as an argument against physicalism and "emergence" as a theory of mind. Panpsychism, panexperientialism would be alternative meta theories of mind. Almost all panpsychists have a monistic worldview and most of them appear to have a process view of reality.


... but does this lead to a Cartesian-like dualism? ... that is, to say that "Both the material and the mental could be said to emerge from underlying process" sounds very much like you are putting the material and the mental on equal footing as "substances" (the difference between this and Cartesian dualism being that in Cartesian dualism the material and the mental are elementary substances, as opposed to being substances that emerge from a monism) ... am I reading this right?

---------- Post added 10-13-2009 at 11:15 AM ----------

BrightNoon;97060 wrote:
We construct our own realities. As thing, externally existent (I presume), I am interacting with other things in the external world, and that interaction determines the manner in which I divide the world: i.e. individuate the monism (e.g. to distinguish a tree from the squirrel on its branch, as something seperate). Being-from-that-perspective is simply experiencing the world so divided; experiencing objects and their relations to one another. So my interactions (as a thing in the external world) determine my experiences (as myself in the familiar phenomenological world). The same with all other things, stones, ferns, etc.


... so if reality construction is a result of our interactions with a world, could this also be characterized as "We co-construct our realities"? ... Dewey also interestingly points out that what we pick out as relevant is problem-specific ... that our experiences are just as much a function of the problems we face as they are a function of our senses ... that each particular problem we face brings forth its own worldview of relevancies ... and that the philosophical mistake often made is to latch on to the worldview brought forth by a particularly important problem as "The Real" in disassociation from the problem that initially brought it forth ... so perhaps it's even better to say "We co-construct our many worldviews"? ...
 
BrightNoon
 
Reply Tue 13 Oct, 2009 12:54 pm
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;97100 wrote:
As I have said before, dont try and point the finger at ONLY 'materialism' (I hate fossilized terminology like that one) for not being able to explain consciousness -for ALL viewpoint CANNOT explain consciousness. We cannot know what is or is not an experiential entity as of right now, and this is noted by the contrasting statements in your reply. Saying everything has 'experience' is equivalent to creationists saying 'goddidit' for X phenomenon -there is not explanatory power in that statement.


First, what is meant by 'explain consciousness?' Only materialism would desire to explain how consciousness arises from matter, and only materialism therefore is faced with the impossibility of doing so. Phenomenology, e.g., does not deal with physical things, it does not work from the 'outside in,' so to speak. Rather, it begins with consciousness as experienced and looks to explain the 'external' (the materialist world) in terms of that experience.

Quote:
This is true that I cannot explain how consciousness arises from the brain, but at least I am capable of saying that I cant.


I never claimed that I, or anyone, could eplain how consciousness arises from the brain. As I said already, that is not possible. But only materialism needs such an explanation. My views are phenomenological, so I feel no compulsion to explain how matter generates consciousness - I try to explain how 'matter' is actually a part of consciousness, in that it is an experienced concept. I do recognize that there exists (I assume) an external reality, but I leave the question of the relationship between the external world and consciousness alone, or if I speculate, I state very clearly that I am speculating, and don't ever claim that my views are the truth; I vehemently deny that it is impossible to know anything about the external world, but I can speculate.

The truth is, is that no one knows how experience can come from matter, and I can only hope you can recognize this as well and stop pointing the finger at science for not having the answer immediately.

Again, I agree that it is impossible to explain how consciousness arises from matter, and, again, that this is only a problem for materialistic schools of thought. I don't have any desire to explain this, because I don't believe that 'matter' and 'physical things' are actually external of consciousness, but rather that they are experienced as concepts in consciousness. So yes, I'm pointing the finger at science alone - because the inability to explain this is only a problem for science. It constitutes a flaw or gap in scientific theory; whereas it is a non-issue for phenomenology.

Quote:
As we have seen in the past, 'phenomenal gaps' have been closed and explained away. There is no reason to give up on a problem and say that science cannot explain it. Likewise, there is no reason to say that since we cannot now that 'materialism' (ugh) is false.


I'm not saying that materialism is 'false.' Materialism is 'true' insofar as we assume its basic premises are true: e.g. that empirical observation can yeild knowledge of an external world which exists independently of our experience of it. I do not accept that premise, so I do not find materialism to be 'true.' If you do, great.

Quote:
That is not true at all. From certain physicalist perspectives consciousness is a process of the brain which thus renders it a physical phenomenon.


If someone wants to define consciousness as a physical process, that's fine - but that merely avoids the problem. The issue is what relation consciousness (as 1st person experience) has to the physical world.

Quote:
Panpsychism is asserting a positive claim about reality and thus has the burden.


How is the claim that 'all things enjoy some form fo experience' any more a positive claim than that 'only things with brains enjoy experience?' Remember, what I am saying about panpsychism I recognize as being purely speculative. I'm not claiming that 'this is the case, this is the truth.' I cannot prove my assertion, nor disprove yours; you cannot prove your assertion or disprove mine. If you find my speculation, my hypothesis, to be silly or improbable, then feel free not to accept it. I offered it for consideration - I don't intend to offer proof. As I said, there is no possible proof.




paulhanke;97190 wrote:

... so if reality construction is a result of our interactions with a world, could this also be characterized as "We co-construct our realities"? ... Dewey also interestingly points out that what we pick out as relevant is problem-specific ... that our experiences are just as much a function of the problems we face as they are a function of our senses ... that each particular problem we face brings forth its own worldview of relevancies ... and that the philosophical mistake often made is to latch on to the worldview brought forth by a particularly important problem as "The Real" in disassociation from the problem that initially brought it forth ... so perhaps it's even better to say "We co-construct our many worldviews"? ...


Yes, I would agree that we 'co-construct' our realities, but that doesn't make the experience of them any less individual or private. We can speculate, as we are now, that our experiences are the result of our interactions with the world and each other (as external objects), but our experiences themselves are in no way 'interactive' or shared. We cannot truly escape our subjectivity, though we can speculate on 'objective' reality (but this speculation is still individual experience: i.e. thought experienced by me privately, not shared).
 
Kielicious
 
Reply Tue 13 Oct, 2009 02:04 pm
@BrightNoon,
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Only materialism

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only materialism

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only materialism

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only a problem for materialistic

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materialism

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Materialism

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materialism


As I have said for the third time now, 'materialism' is not what this thread is about. No one has said anything about 'materialism' except for you. The OP addresses panpsychism to which I reject that claim. I am not asserting anything so stop trying to switch the stance of this thread from panpsychism to 'materialism'. I am trying to keep my cool but if you continue this route then I will no longer reply. 'Materialism' has been talked about time and time again in this section of philosophy and there are threads that are still active to which you can reply in. However, I am interested in panpsychism and I thought you were as well, so lets make it about that.



Brightnoon wrote:
I don't have any desire to explain this, because I don't believe that 'matter' and 'physical things' are actually external of consciousness, but rather that they are experienced as concepts in consciousness. So yes, I'm pointing the finger at science alone - because the inability to explain this is only a problem for science. It constitutes a flaw or gap in scientific theory; whereas it is a non-issue for phenomenology.


I beg your pardon, but humble thyself. Explaining How and Why everything in existence is conscious is a non-issue for yourself is astounding. Why do you feel obligated that you dont feel the need to explain how and why everything is conscious? If I were to claim that everything is endowed with pixie dust and you asked me why that is and I just responded, "That is a non-issue for me" wouldnt you be a bit unsatisfied with that answer? I hope you can see where I am coming from.



Brightnoon wrote:
If someone wants to define consciousness as a physical process, that's fine - but that merely avoids the problem. The issue is what relation consciousness (as 1st person experience) has to the physical world.


Again, so claiming that everything is conscious AND that doesnt require an explanantion is NOT avoiding the problem...? hmmmm



Brightnoon wrote:
How is the claim that 'all things enjoy some form fo experience' any more a positive claim than that 'only things with brains enjoy experience?'


Because only YOU said that. You're trying to turn this thread around from panpsychism to 'materialism'. I am NOT asserting anything - I am merely being a skeptic.


Brightnoon wrote:
Remember, what I am saying about panpsychism I recognize as being purely speculative. I'm not claiming that 'this is the case, this is the truth.' I cannot prove my assertion, nor disprove yours; you cannot prove your assertion or disprove mine. If you find my speculation, my hypothesis, to be silly or improbable, then feel free not to accept it. I offered it for consideration - I don't intend to offer proof. As I said, there is no possible proof.


I understand we are speculating but there has to be something from your position that can sway the skeptic right? Some form of evidence, or reason, or fact that can make your stance somewhat credible... ?
 
 

 
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