Repeatability in everyday experience.

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pagan
 
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 08:21 am
One of the essential qualities contained in the scientific understanding of the world is repeatability. In the post quantum world this concept has been modified somewhat, especially on the small scales of space time. But on the larger everyday scale of common human experience the classical narrative of science still holds a great deal of power and usefulness. In that context, are there any thoughts on the potential 'hole' that exists in the scientific method of determining what is 'evidence' by insisting upon repeatability?

For example miracles. Visions. One off precognition. Twin telepathy and so on.

How much is based upon trust and personal experience in this regard? Is it actually so rare that most of us do not witness such events? Are we necessarily gullible to trust the reports of such phenomena from others? If not in either case, then are such phenomena profound? It seems to me quite possible that we do experience these kind of things, but many if not most of us, just push them to one side or explain them away as coincidence and delusion. Presumably the power of classical science is the cause of this tendency, so is it necessarily a good thing in that respect?

As a pagan I meet people who seem to have an eerie ability to pick up on things by what I can only describe as magical means. By that I mean they fall outside of classical science, in a worldly context where classical science appears for the most part to reign supreme. At the suggestion of taking synchronicity openly I have had personal experiences that are truly spooky. But for me they are rare and unpredictable. They happen to me, rather than what I can only conceive of as the next step which is proactive. But the more I am open to this stuff the more I tantalisingly feel I am getting 'closer' to tuning in.

Delusional? I guess I am bound to receive that honest appraisal. But how can we be sure? Anyone here on the same path so to speak? Gone a little further? Smile

Another thought I have had on this matter is that classical science doesn't actually alwaysimpartially conduct such an experiment? For example precognitive dreams. Is it even possible, and does it make philosophical sense, to say that if such phenomena are not repeatably tested
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 08:41 am
@pagan,
Pagan, i have had my share of experiences, i could not prove to others and i have experienced others moments.Science is the judge and jury,any slipping from that path is heresy.There was a poster here who on a visit to our shores had an experience at one of our stone circles that changed his perception of reality.The stones took on the characters of certain inviduals and he had a type of communion with them.We could say he was delusional but if we keep an open mind about these events we might just learn more than science can explain.
 
pagan
 
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 08:56 am
@xris,
thanks for sharing that xris Smile
 
richrf
 
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 09:13 am
@pagan,
pagan;79972 wrote:
In that context, are there any thoughts on the potential 'hole' that exists in the scientific method of determining what is 'evidence' by insisting upon repeatability?


I have found the more significant events in my life had nothing to do with repeatability. E.g. the birth of my son, some dream that I might have had, the times that I met someone that I wanted to be with, a great golf shot, some fantastic night with music, or walking alone one day, or maybe som phantasmal synchronistic occurrence. I have a doozy which I relate to people over a cup of tea now and then.

Repeatability is most useful for mechanization, e.g. flushing my toilet, but I do find it has much impact on the significant events that makes my life my life. Uniqueness is what makes me different.

Thanks for the question.

Rich
 
pagan
 
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 09:32 am
@richrf,
Quote:
Repeatability is most useful for mechanization, e.g. flushing my toilet, but I do find it has much impact on the significant events that makes my life my life. Uniqueness is what makes me different.
lol.... ah thats a nice perspective you gave there richrf. Yes the personal Smile
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 09:36 am
@pagan,
pagan;79985 wrote:
lol.... ah thats a nice perspective you gave there richrf. Yes the personal Smile


But the trouble is that you are not unique. Although it pleases you to believe that you are. In fact, you are much like others who also believe that they are unique.
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 12:06 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;79986 wrote:
But the trouble is that you are not unique. Although it pleases you to believe that you are. In fact, you are much like others who also believe that they are unique.
Unique aint personal but im fricking unique, try proving i aint..
 
pagan
 
Reply Wed 29 Jul, 2009 10:30 am
@xris,
Repeatability is a killer. Maybe that is why many feel adverse to science and determinism. Life is seen as just endless repetition of basic lifeless rules. Nothing interesting or unique ever happens Smile repetition is impersonal.
 
richrf
 
Reply Wed 29 Jul, 2009 10:46 am
@pagan,
pagan;80194 wrote:
Repeatability is a killer. Maybe that is why many feel adverse to science and determinism. Life is seen as just endless repetition of basic lifeless rules. Nothing interesting or unique ever happens Smile repetition is impersonal.


Nothing ever seems to repeat. Every moment appears to be different. But we agree on certain types of repetition (e.g. time), so that we can communicate and relate to each other.

Rich
 
Grimlock
 
Reply Wed 29 Jul, 2009 11:00 am
@pagan,
pagan;79972 wrote:
Another thought I have had on this matter is that classical science doesn't actually always posit one possibility. For example with regard to an explosion maintaining the conservation of energy, momentum, charge, angular momentum, probability distribution etc. throughout the entire process. An explosion is potentially infinite in the possible outcomes even according to classical science.


Infinite? I disagree. Extremely large and approaching infinity in terms of potential possibilities, but we're talking about a physical reaction within a finite system - a single object exploding - unless I'm misunderstanding you. This does not appear to be a situation in which the possibilities are actually infinite.

Quote:
Is this train of thought necessarily just sophistry? Or is it trust? Is it spiritually significant? Any further reading?


I'd recommend Karl Popper.
 
ValueRanger
 
Reply Wed 29 Jul, 2009 12:19 pm
@pagan,
Consider that we shift with the law of balance (opposites).

Early in evolution, a set progression is limited, then intermediate, then expansive. And since spacetime persists, this pattern equally needs to be reproducible.

re-producible, re-peat, etc.....

So at what point are we in our evolution that we need to reproduce old behaviors, compared to anew? Since we've spent X amount of time and space in a more limited set prior, does that mean we need to shift older patterns to newer potentials?
 
pagan
 
Reply Wed 29 Jul, 2009 12:57 pm
@ValueRanger,
hi grimlock

Quote:
Infinite? I disagree. Extremely large and approaching infinity in terms of potential possibilities, but we're talking about a physical reaction within a finite system - a single object exploding - unless I'm misunderstanding you. This does not appear to be a situation in which the possibilities are actually infinite.
well by that i mean in the classical sense of continuity of space and time trajectory ....... and fragmentation and collision.

hi valueranger and rich

yes it is interesting that you point out in effect that we cannot measure without repetition. Without measure we are lost in chaos for sure. But can everything be measured by repetition...... or can it also be recognised by contrast? Otherness.

Is there no otherness after all is measured by means of repetition? Or do our meter readings have hidden gaps by design?
 
xris
 
Reply Wed 29 Jul, 2009 01:28 pm
@pagan,
Sorry chaps but this is really boring, everyday..who desires a change from mundane experiences, only to be shocked into realising how safe that was.Any experience worthy of mention has consequences, they require examination and can be very vexing.A moment in time is like any other moment, except for its poignancy.
I thought the debate was, can science put any value to that one and only,or so infrequent to be of no significance.The sighting of an angel, the feeling of evil,the dream of the future..
I once heard a man tell another the cards he would be dealt, after they where shuffled and cut.I asked him how he knew?was it trick?He said he had no idea.The hand of cards, he said, became like a picture in his mind,it had never happened before ..nor has it again.Now science may say coincidence but would he could he imagine them by reason?
 
ValueRanger
 
Reply Wed 29 Jul, 2009 02:21 pm
@xris,
xris;80218 wrote:
reason?

Mayhap reason (rational = The Golden Ratio) contains intuition in the set trajectory?

Is a sixth sense nexus a Golden alignment of 5 senses, and can such advanced states be sustained?
 
pagan
 
Reply Wed 29 Jul, 2009 03:52 pm
@ValueRanger,
lol well i am sorry you are bored dude. Smile
Quote:
xris -
I thought the debate was, can science put any value to that one and only,or so infrequent to be of no significance.The sighting of an angel, the feeling of evil,the dream of the future..
i am certainly not finished with this. It is true that the rare can be missed by the science of repetition ...... but does that also make it 'other' in a sense too? As opposed to delusion. While we agree that visions and the like are potentially profound, others may reject their possibility because of science.

But ok here is a theory i have and i am trying to kind of test it with regard to a common spooky phenomena. Deja vu.

Like most people for years i thought this was just a freaky delightful thing, like weird dreams. But then the following scientific theory came to mind while reading a book called the arrow of time. What if the past and the future do exist in a kind of second time, similar to the space-time block theory expounded by the book, but in addition there are waves of 'now' across the surface of the block.

So, consider a wave of now, flowing over a previous history, and then something changes. Maybe somebody makes a different decision, or loses their balance or maybe by a quantum induced fracturing event a wall collapses ten seconds earlier than before or whatever ..... the wave of now will start to re-write the previous history that followed.

Consider the consequences, maybe the effects spread out and possibly rewrite the entire history of the universe. Maybe though they don't and the change spreads out and then contracts back because of the effects of that which hasn't changed..... and maybe at that moment if it happens to us, we get deja vu? Smile .....but wouldn't we get group deja vu?

Anyways re thinking deja vu differently. (a strange variation upon repetition in life).Maybe they are possible signs of something? Signals across different waves of now. Something waiting in the future for us to experience. Rare events that have a meaning if we can find it through practice. Anyone tried this?

(This incidentally gives a challenge to free will, or does it?)
 
xris
 
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 07:32 am
@pagan,
Deja vu ,they say only occurs up to certain age.I must say Ive not had one in years.The problem is, the evidence is only relevant to those who experience the unusual.Science is unable to cope the one offs, it needs to convince others.
I cant imagine a scientist faced with a one offs, even admitting its existance.I cant believe all those who reject such things have never had some strange inexplicable experience.
As a child I saw an amazing ball lighting hover in my back garden unaware of their existance, till someone explained it to me.I was equally amazed at a fiery ball slowly passing over my same garden, as no one new what it was,it was treated as a young child's imagination.Funny how most unusual events that cant be explained are rejected in the same manner.
 
salima
 
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 09:38 am
@pagan,
hello pagan-
there is also a theory (dont know its name) that time is not linear-we perceive it as such but actually it is all one eternity of the now. what gives any continuity to it i have no idea, but i imagine it would have something to do with our brains and how they are formed. they compartmentalize things, associate things, and i would assume also linearize events...that theory also would explain many occurrences that are considered paranormal. and yes, it does do a number on the notion of free will, doesnt it?

and as for why only some people have certain experiences rather than a group, i think it is possible there are certain blocks in our minds that prevent us from noticing things that dont fit-some people have more than others. i think they may be put there by experience through the brain itself. like the miracles that claim sighting mary the mother of jesus, some people saw nothing. so the question becomes what was there if anything to be seen? i also believe there is such a thing as mass hallucination, just to complicate things even further.
 
ValueRanger
 
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 10:00 am
@salima,
salima;80345 wrote:
time is not linear-we perceive it as such

Consider a fibonacci sequence that is quantifiable. What would be the physics source?

Can a singularity Flux to duality, such as dark and light energy, or strong and weak forces, evolving into gravity and thermodynamics? And is each sequitur modular and scalar?

So how would deja-vu venn to this Origin set?

Modular and scalar convey interconnected cause. This means there is a Golden Mean to all trajectories - sustainability (survival) through modular and scalar reproduction. Now consider vector tensor theory. Past tense, overlapping to present and future tense. Is it possible to sync quantified trajectories and predict as a sixth sense? And how much depends on your empathic state with proximal mediums?

Perhaps as we grow more powerful in controlling the very physics that caused us, we gain more insight, and outsight, in adaptable transformations. This, of course, carries an equally powerful ethics accountability - but surely there is a sustainable Ratio...
 
xris
 
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 10:38 am
@ValueRanger,
ValueRanger;80349 wrote:
Consider a fibonacci sequence that is quantifiable. What would be the physics source?

Can a singularity Flux to duality, such as dark and light energy, or strong and weak forces, evolving into gravity and thermodynamics? And is each sequitur modular and scalar?

So how would deja-vu venn to this Origin set?

Modular and scalar convey interconnected cause. This means there is a Golden Mean to all trajectories - sustainability (survival) through modular and scalar reproduction. Now consider vector tensor theory. Past tense, overlapping to present and future tense. Is it possible to sync quantified trajectories and predict as a sixth sense? And how much depends on your empathic state with proximal mediums?

Perhaps as we grow more powerful in controlling the very physics that caused us, we gain more insight, and outsight, in adaptable transformations. This, of course, carries an equally powerful ethics accountability - but surely there is a sustainable Ratio...
Well your making me feel totally inadequate,i dont even know what your talking about let alone answer.There is a golden mean to all trajectories,whats golden and what trajectories?When did we find the sixth sense?thanks xris..
 
richrf
 
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 10:39 am
@pagan,
pagan;80237 wrote:
(This incidentally gives a challenge to free will, or does it?)


Possibly, but I picture Will as the ability to change direction. So you have waves, but those waves can navigate - change direction. Now, they still create new wave formations when wave interfere with each other (as in a hologram). All of these waves are the influences that surround us. So where ever we go, there are influences, but we can navigate in different directions (attempt to avoid, be attracted to, etc.) using Will.

Rich
 
 

 
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