science is about finding necessary relations.

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Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 02:25 am
Natural kinds are interesting in the following sense. The finding of necessary relationships in the natural world. Natural kinds are suppose to have intrinsic properties such that the non obtaining of such properties result in the non obtaining of the kind. i.e: Water is H2o is a posteriori necessary. Here is why: For a possible world without H2O, we can confidently say there are no water. In any possible world with water, we can confidently say there are H2o.
 
urangutan
 
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 02:37 am
@vectorcube,
What if on some world there exist a triple elemental form of hydrogen, H3. It cannot break down into two parts, it remains as thus. There is oxygen, so is there water. Maybe H3O isn't a watery substance. Would it take a metabolic system within some life form to gather two of these hydrogen molecules and three of the oxygen molecules to somhow form water itself. Life as we know it compared to life that could be imagined. Science has no hope just conjecture. Humans have hope and that is scientific.
 
vectorcube
 
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 02:53 am
@urangutan,
I don` t understand what you are trying to say.
 
urangutan
 
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 03:16 am
@vectorcube,
I am saying that I can disagree with your post without having any proof. What I base my evidence on is sheer speculation, something less than a hypothesis. Hence the query, can a life form that we have no understanding of take elements for itself and create water, H2O. Still there is no water present, well not in the form that we understand. Another entry would read that science did not discover that there can be no life without water.
 
vectorcube
 
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 03:29 am
@urangutan,
Quote:
can a life form that we have no understanding of take elements for itself and create water, H2O.


I don` t know.


Quote:

Still there is no water present, well not in the form that we understand


There would be water in the life form, yes?

Quote:

Another entry would read that science did not discover that there can be no life without water.


I don ` t understand what you mean here.
 
urangutan
 
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 03:40 am
@vectorcube,
Necessary relation may well work for the understanding of our own planet or simply our own understanding of our touchable part of the universe. It does not inflict a law unto the entire universe. My point is simple, all things can be possible, without proof, just sound speculation. H2O may not exist on Mars but life may very well. Just because we cannot see, that doesn't mean it isn't there nor does it mean we should think we are blind.
 
vectorcube
 
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 03:57 am
@urangutan,
Quote:

My point is simple, all things can be possible, without proof, just sound speculation.


A well know example is "water is H20". In this case, Water is H20, necessarily. It is in the sense of being metaphysically necessary that water is H2O. The best way to see why is to see it in terms of possible worlds. The predicate P "is H2O" quantified over possible worlds W. P defines the set of worlds, say S. That is


S= { x : x in W & Px ), where W is the set of all possible worlds, and P is the predicate " is H20.


This explanation might not be the best. Tell me if you want another explanation. Think about why a table has four legs. Suppose i take away one leg. Obviously, you would not call it a table.
 
urangutan
 
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 04:13 am
@vectorcube,
Upon the stuctures we can visualize, this may all be true. Take your table for example. If I suspend it from the ceiling, does it still have four legs. Water may only exist on some far reaching planet under the relationship of H3OH3O2 as the hydrogen molecule cannot exist in pairs. Now the relationship you speak of is no longer the necessity but a mere fraction of the total.
 
vectorcube
 
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 06:02 am
@urangutan,
Quote:

Take your table for example. If I suspend it from the ceiling, does it still have four legs.


why is a suspended table not a table?

Quote:

Water may only exist on some far reaching planet under the relationship of H3OH3O2 as the hydrogen molecule cannot exist in pairs.



This is not clear to me.
 
urangutan
 
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 06:51 am
@vectorcube,
A suspended table is a table but it has no legs like you had suggested when removing a leg from a four legged table, why wouldn't you call a three legged table a table, though it may be less stable.

Now you say water is the combination of H2O. It is a necessary relation, all I suggest is that in some place where the hydrogen molecule cannot pair but simply form into three parts, would not H3OH3O2 be water as well, which would expand your necessary relations theorum to include other possibilities.

Hence what you are saying isn't an absolute but part of a whole, when considering all possibilities.
 
richrf
 
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 01:10 pm
@vectorcube,
vectorcube;78244 wrote:
Natural kinds are interesting in the following sense. The finding of necessary relationships in the natural world. Natural kinds are suppose to have intrinsic properties such that the non obtaining of such properties result in the non obtaining of the kind. i.e: Water is H2o is a posteriori necessary. Here is why: For a possible world without H2O, we can confidently say there are no water. In any possible world with water, we can confidently say there are H2o.


Yes, I would say science attempts to applying relationships to the natural world, but I would look upon these relationships as dynamic and constantly changing. For example, heavy water is defined as such:

Heavy water - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
vectorcube
 
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2009 01:12 am
@urangutan,
urangutan;78271 wrote:
A suspended table is a table but it has no legs like you had suggested when removing a leg from a four legged table, why wouldn't you call a three legged table a table, though it may be less stable.


How is a suspended table not a table? It is like saying superman has no legs when he is flying.


Quote:

Now you say water is the combination of H2O. It is a necessary relation, all I suggest is that in some place where the hydrogen molecule cannot pair but simply form into three parts, would not H3OH3O2 be water as well, which would expand your necessary relations theorum to include other possibilities.


I like you to read about Kripka, and "a posteriori necessity". The fine detail of the argument is given by Kripka.

---------- Post added 07-20-2009 at 02:14 AM ----------

richrf;78322 wrote:
Yes, I would say science attempts to applying relationships to the natural world, but I would look upon these relationships as dynamic and constantly changing. For example, heavy water is defined as such:

Heavy water - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I have no idea what you mean by "dynamic laws". The dynamics laws i know are the laws of motion, and they are called laws of nature.
 
 

 
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