Miracles

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xris
 
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2009 05:06 am
@Whoever,
Whoever wrote:
It could be argued that the existence of the universe is a miracle. We're certainly not having much success in trying to prove that it isn't. Ditto for consciousness. I'm not suggesting that these are miracles, as opposed to mysteries, but I don't see what's to stop someone arguing that they are.
We are discussing miracles with a big M are we not..raising of the dead ,statues weeping..am i thick?
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2009 03:51 am
@xris,
This was an aweful discussion. I can see the dissonanc standing from right here, and I'm standing pretty ******* far, guys. There were too many preconceived notions tossed together at once, and a battle of semantics ensued.

Xris, you seem to want to regard "miracle" as simply an anomaly, and not necessarily something with intelligent intent, while democritus asserted a logical argument with the proposition that a "miracle" was something that most definitely did have intelligent intent (basing this on the OP). From what I've read, the OP actually didn't seem to focus as much on intent as he did on the differentiation in probablity, more along the lines of the "miracle" xris was requesting evidence of. Meanwhile, you have people posting regarding the application of meaning, when that wasn't even the facet of "miracle" being discussed. It was just a big misunderstanding.

Xris: There is no evidence of any of these anomalies actually occuring. See Democritus.

OP: You make a good point: Decreasing probablity of confined time and place defines many notions of "miracle".

Everyone that brought up meaning: Every consciousness not only applies meaning, but also decides the frequently. "Miracle" can be as rare or common an occurance as the observer wishes, but the common ground is that it usually coincides with the observer's desire. But, like every word of this nature, there are various notions and some may not fall perfectly in line with this. As Whoever noted, the existence of the universe could be argued to be a "miracle" simply on the terms that the observer enjoys life; the "miracle" hasn't directly fulfilled any desires, unless of course we consider life being a consistent desire.

In my opinion, it's just another slipshod word we toss around to suit our desires. It's a useless word to me, and that's why I've discarded it. But I understand if someone wants to apply meaning to me stabbing a busdriver in the eye that was just about to murder a whole school bus of children, when, without warning, an eclipse occured, rendering the driver's remaining eye useless because at that very moment every light in the entire city was turned off by a squirril that just happened to jump into one of the main reactors, which then caused the visually impaired driver to swerve the vehicle at just the right moment to have the entire bus land on a heavy duty safety parachute that was just patented that very day, balancing itself off of an Ohio cliff just long enough to get the children to safety, but not long enough to allow the driver to survive (whom died of karma, that b itch!) :poke-eye:
 
xris
 
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2009 09:15 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:
This was an aweful discussion. I can see the dissonanc standing from right here, and I'm standing pretty ******* far, guys. There were too many preconceived notions tossed together at once, and a battle of semantics ensued.

Xris, you seem to want to regard "miracle" as simply an anomaly, and not necessarily something with intelligent intent, while democritus asserted a logical argument with the proposition that a "miracle" was something that most definitely did have intelligent intent (basing this on the OP). From what I've read, the OP actually didn't seem to focus as much on intent as he did on the differentiation in probablity, more along the lines of the "miracle" xris was requesting evidence of. Meanwhile, you have people posting regarding the application of meaning, when that wasn't even the facet of "miracle" being discussed. It was just a big misunderstanding.

Xris: There is no evidence of any of these anomalies actually occuring. See Democritus.

OP: You make a good point: Decreasing probablity of confined time and place defines many notions of "miracle".

Everyone that brought up meaning: Every consciousness not only applies meaning, but also decides the frequently. "Miracle" can be as rare or common an occurance as the observer wishes, but the common ground is that it usually coincides with the observer's desire. But, like every word of this nature, there are various notions and some may not fall perfectly in line with this. As Whoever noted, the existence of the universe could be argued to be a "miracle" simply on the terms that the observer enjoys life; the "miracle" hasn't directly fulfilled any desires, unless of course we consider life being a consistent desire.

In my opinion, it's just another slipshod word we toss around to suit our desires. It's a useless word to me, and that's why I've discarded it. But I understand if someone wants to apply meaning to me stabbing a busdriver in the eye that was just about to murder a whole school bus of children, when, without warning, an eclipse occured, rendering the driver's remaining eye useless because at that very moment every light in the entire city was turned off by a squirril that just happened to jump into one of the main reactors, which then caused the visually impaired driver to swerve the vehicle at just the right moment to have the entire bus land on a heavy duty safety parachute that was just patented that very day, balancing itself off of an Ohio cliff just long enough to get the children to safety, but not long enough to allow the driver to survive (whom died of karma, that b itch!) :poke-eye:
Thanks for your thoughts but i wanted these miracles to be described firstly so we knew what we where debating.I could well agree or disagree on an individual case but till its described i have no opinion..
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2009 12:59 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
Thanks for your thoughts but i wanted these miracles to be described firstly so we knew what we where debating.I could well agree or disagree on an individual case but till its described i have no opinion..


Who did you wish to do the describing then?
 
xris
 
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2009 01:16 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:
Who did you wish to do the describing then?
Those who insist they have knowledge of a miracle..
 
democritus
 
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2009 07:03 am
@xris,
Dear Zetherin & Xris let us not invent the wheel again and again. In his opening comment on 22/09/2008 Binyamin Tsadik describes "miracle" as:
Binyamin Tsadik wrote:
if someone were to walk through a wall today, it would not be considered a Miracle. However, if you were being chased by a man with a gun and he cornered you and you walked through the wall and were saved, this is what is known as a miracle. It is an improbable occurrence that occurs with intelligence.
Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

If the Red Sea split at the exact time when a nation was surrounded by another nation about to be slaughtered, shows intent and changes the natural event to the level of a Miracle.

We can accept this description and further more, I have tried to make it more clear by saying that: "a very rare event [like Red Sea splits or walking through the wall under duress or changing water into wine] may be called "miracle" if it happens on demand".

And I repeat my earlier comment here: Until now, no reliable evidence have been provided to justify the claim that a "miracle" has actually happened.

Thanks
democritus
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2009 12:05 pm
@democritus,
democritus wrote:
Dear Zetherin & Xris let us not invent the wheel again and again. In his opening comment on 22/09/2008 Binyamin Tsadik describes "miracle" as:

We can accept this description and further more, I have tried to make it more clear by saying that: "a very rare event [like Red Sea splits or walking through the wall under duress or changing water into wine] may be called "miracle" if it happens on demand".

And I repeat my earlier comment here: Until now, no reliable evidence have been provided to justify the claim that a "miracle" has actually happened.

Thanks
democritus
I did not ask what miracle was, i was asking for an example that could be discussed.Does it rain in the desert does snow fall in summer?
 
democritus
 
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2009 01:53 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
I did not ask what miracle was, i was asking for an example that could be discussed.Does it rain in the desert does snow fall in summer?
In order to have a debate everyone needs to know what is being debated first. Logic particularly can not cope with ambiguities. That is why I have provided an unambiguous definition of "miracle" relevant to this particular debate.

Secondly, I have provided clear examples which might be regarded "miracles" within the definition previously provided.

It will be helpfull before typing down comments, particularly in the subject of philosophy, one needs to read and hopefully understand what was said. Jumping from one subject to another doesn't do.

Thanks
democritus
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2009 02:07 pm
@democritus,
democritus wrote:
In order to have a debate everyone needs to know what is being debated first. Logic particularly can not cope with ambiguities. That is why I have provided an unambiguous definition of "miracle" relevant to this particular debate.

Secondly, I have provided clear examples which might be regarded "miracles" within the definition previously provided.

It will be helpfull before typing down comments, particularly in the subject of philosophy, one needs to read and hopefully understand what was said. Jumping from one subject to another doesn't do.

Thanks
democritus
I am aware of whats being debated but this airy fairy IS, is not going to become relevant till exactly every one knows the detail.I could ask about the vague notion of ufo sightings ,because one is so silly to mention does that exclude all others ? Defining is not describing..I cant see how miracles can be discussed in detail on such a wide issue without referring to them individually.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2009 02:50 pm
@democritus,
Democritus,

I understood your definition (along with the OP that you based it on). I cited the problem as being: not everyone responded with the same notion of miracle. In other words, everyone did try to reinvent the wheel and then was arguing on it's behalf.
 
 

 
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