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According to Quantum Physics there is a chance that a person can walk through a wall. It may happen once in a billion lifetimes of the universe, but the probablity exists.
Therefore, if someone were to walk through a wall today, it would not be considered a Miracle.
However, if you were being chased by a man with a gun and he cornered you and you walked through the wall and were saved, this is what is known as a miracle.
A Miracle is not something outside of Science.
It is an improbable occurence that occurs with intelligence.

If the Red Sea were to part today, it would therefore not be a miracle. It is a natural Phenomina that occurs every few thousand years. But the fact that it split at the exact time when a nation was surrounded by another nation about to be slaughtered, shows intent and changes the natural event to the level of a Miracle.

Probability decreases when confined to a specific time and place and is thus far more improbable.

@Binyamin Tsadik,

It seems that there are two conditions for an event to be miraculous. First, it must contravene the observed laws of nature that operate in the universe, and second, its agent or cause must be outside the universe.

@jgweed,

jgweed wrote:

It seems that there are two conditions for an event to be miraculous. First, it must contravene the observed laws of nature that operate in the universe, and second, its agent or cause must be outside the universe.

Its agent must be of similar nature as the universe in order that it can interact with it, and it also must intersect in some way with the universe in order to exact influence, so we are still talking about somthing which at least shares components with the physical and observable, and all things which are physical and observable are the domain of science. To the extent that we can experience the influence of said agent, it exists for us, and thus it is a subject of the sciences. Science is an adaptive framework which attempts to explain relationally all that affects us, thus so too shall it explain miracles.

There is nothing which exerts influence upon us that is not within or potentially within the domain of the sciences, and if a thing does not or cannot influence us in any way then it does not exist until it can influence us or does, this is the definition of existence.

@Zetetic11235,

Miracles do not go against the laws of nature.
Is the Limitless perfection unable to work within the rules of Limit in order to accomplish a specific task?

If you say that Miracles do not act within the laws of the world, you are saying that the Limitless perfection must break the laws in order to accomplish the Miracle.

It is a far greater feat to plan Miracles from the time of creation and have them come about at exact specific times

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

Miracles do not go against the laws of nature.
Is the Limitless perfection unable to work within the rules of Limit in order to accomplish a specific task?

If you say that Miracles do not act within the laws of the world, you are saying that the Limitless perfection must break the laws in order to accomplish the Miracle.

It is a far greater feat to plan Miracles from the time of creation and have them come about at exact specific times

This may interest you. (Note especially the distinction made between the marvelous, and the miraculous).

The Marvelous and Miraculous: A Defense of Hume

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Binyamin Tsadik;25429 wrote:

Miracles do not go against the laws of nature.
Is the Limitless perfection unable to work within the rules of Limit in order to accomplish a specific task?

If you say that Miracles do not act within the laws of the world, you are saying that the Limitless perfection must break the laws in order to accomplish the Miracle.

It is a far greater feat to plan Miracles from the time of creation and have them come about at exact specific times

so then the power , would have been in a different dimension to create this miracle?

and if these miracles were created during the time of creation would they be considered miracles

or just odd times that are rare, but planned

or maybe these "mircales" are one of the more rare things that happen on earth,

like an eclipse

@SummyF,

Hume makes a connection between prophecy and Miracle when infact the two must not be connected. The Marvelous is not a Miracle unless it has divine purpose.

SummyF:
I dont know what "Different Dimention" Refers to. In the words of the Torah "There is nothing but Him". And according to the Sages "He is not a place in the world, but the world is a place in Him"

An eclipse is a natural phenomina that has a high probability of occuring and does not really change or effect the course of history. Its interaction is very limited within our conscious lives (Astrologically it is very significant).

Think of the Universe as your body. If you want to change something you reach out and change it. The Miracle comes about within the laws of the Universe. It is the Universe itself (As a body) that causes the Miracle. The Limitless Will is what causes the Universe to act in the same way as your mind controls your body.

Example: You missed the bus today. Ordinary occurrence correct? Nothing magnificent. But the bus crashes and no one is killed, and the seat that you normally sit in was destroyed, but luckily no one was in it.

Now the fact that you missed the bus was a Miracle. If the bus had not crashed that might have also been a Miracle, but no one would have known that the Limitless Will prevented the bus from crashing in the first place. It would have appeared as an ordinary day. The Miracle was brought about so that you would realize that it was a Miracle.

Take it even further. Why did you miss the bus? Your alarm mysteriously didn't go off. Or you were up late the night before volunteering in a soup kitchen.

A miracle is less what happened and more when and where it happened and the result or purpose of the occurence. A rare occurence cannot be a miracle unless it has a purpose to it.

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Ic,

do you know if this application of god? is in the other abrahamic religions?

@SummyF,

SummyF wrote:

Ic,

do you know if this application of god? is in the other abrahamic religions?

I dont know about Islam, but Christianity may disagree. Christianity beleives in the aspect of "Performing Miracles". I laugh at the rediculousness of it. If a miracle is an act of God, then how can a Human perform one?
Jewish Philosophy calls this "Magic" and does not deny the fact that it exists but does not call it miraculous.

However, Jewish Philosophy is the source of Christianity and thus if Christianity contradicts it, then it is most likely because of some Pope at some point in time that decided that this was the Christian beleif.

Many Christian beleifs were adapted from Paganism such as the concept of the Devil.

Jewish Philosophy acknowledges the fact that there is a created force known as the Satan, but does not place it outside of the Limitless' Will. The Satan does not oppose the Will of the Limitless! The Satan performs the Will of the Limitless and was created to behave in this way for a specific purpose. If the Limitless decided that the Satan should no longer function, then it is fully within Its power to end the Satan's existance.

There is no reason, however, that a Christian or a Muslim should disagree with this definition of a Miracle. If there is any disagreement it is not textual, but based on the common consensus.

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Hello everybody,

What does the introductory comment by Binyamin Tsadik on 22/09/2008 say about "Miracle"?

Miracle = a very rare event in a particular time and place and with intelligence or intend. [ON DEMAND really - according to the definition in the comment above]

Some events are unheard of and called "very rare events" [it is true]

a very rare event may be just a "very rare event" [if it happens by accident]

a very rare event may be called a "miracle" [if it happens on demand]

Let us say X = A man walked through the wall = a very rare event in particular time and location [according to the commentary above]

Let us say Y = Red Sea crossing = a very rare event in particular time and location [according to the commentary above]

Xa = Miracle [if there is a will]
Xb = Not Miracle [if there is not a known will]

Ya = Miracle [if there is a will]
Yb = Not Miracle [if there is not a known will]

In order to talk about miracles, which -by definition- requires intelligence/intend or "will", we need to prove that this "will" is the cause of that particular event.

Now, the onus on the claimer's shoulder to prove without doubt that, there is a miracle and in this particular miracle -the very rare event- happened because of the "will" of the instigator.

Until now, no reliable evidence have been provided to justify the claim that a "miracle" has actually happened.

@democritus,

Is this a serious discussion or can anyone join in..Miracles..are these the proven ones??and can you point me to one??

@jgweed,

Hello Jgweed,

I have objection to your second condition ["cause must be outside the universe"] and this is my argument:

If I can prove that, I can walk through a wall [or split the Red Sea] on demand at least Binyamin Tsadik would have to call it "miracle" [to be consistent with his earlier argument]. Therefore, the location of the cause is not relevant in this particular debate.

@democritus,

The term "Miracle" is very subjective when it comes from the individual/s who witnessed it.

its easy to assume a higher power or logic to something you cant explain.

On the other hand, i dont personally believe in coincidences.

Heres a question, Does a Miracle have to be from a god like entity, or outside this universe. Is it so inconceivable that our environment (Energy) is in tune with Humans (Energy).

@Joe,

Joe wrote:

The term "Miracle" is very subjective when it comes from the individual/s who witnessed it.

its easy to assume a higher power or logic to something you cant explain.

On the other hand, i dont personally believe in coincidences.

Heres a question, Does a Miracle have to be from a god like entity, or outside this universe. Is it so inconceivable that our environment (Energy) is in tune with Humans (Energy).

You have to prove a miracle has occurred before you can discuss them..

@xris,

Why must you prove a miracle has occurred before miracles can be discussed? Do you have to prove there is life on other planets before you can discuss that?

@kennethamy,

kennethamy wrote:

Why must you prove a miracle has occurred before miracles can be discussed? Do you have to prove there is life on other planets before you can discuss that?

What in the hell has life on another planet got to do with it? life on other planets in science can be possible not miracles..tell me the science that can give examples of miracles...

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Perhaps the notion/word 'miracle' evolved in a science/critical-thought 'lean' (and superstition/mythology rich) atmosphere. A 'Bic' lighter in action would certainly have qualified as a miracle at a particular place and time, to a particular 'world-view'.
Perhaps, in our critical thought/science 'rich' atmosphere of today, it's time to relegate the obsolete notion of 'miracles' to the dustbins of a superstitious and ignorant history? There will be quite a pile of obsolete words, obsolete notions, to keep it company...

@nameless,

So there we have it..nothing to discuss except those who persist in their existance...

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

Hume makes a connection between prophecy and Miracle when infact the two must not be connected. The Marvelous is not a Miracle unless it has divine purpose.

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

A miracle is less what happened and more when and where it happened and the result or purpose of the occurence. A rare occurence cannot be a miracle unless it has a purpose to it.

How can something be determined to have divine purpose? Is it not possible that all things have divine purpose if we are considering Limitless will? Would this not permit the possibility that all acts are miracles? But humans have free will alloted to them according to your scriptures, correct? So only those actions not directly attributed to human will can come from divine will, correct? So we could at least say that it is possible that any action which is not necessarily caused by human will is caused by divine will? Then all marvelous acts are miracles unless they are committed by humans, as humans have free will. But is free will really in any way separable from Limitless Will? It couldn't be. Thus ultimately all acts are divine, correct? So then all actions are miracles?

Conversely, let us assume that some actions not directly related to human will do not have behind them divine purpose. Now assume an incident has taken place, say the bus incident you described. How can we determine whether the incident has divine will or not? Could we not say just as easily that it was a product of chance? Or is there in actuality a way to measure the influence of Limitless will? I would think it absurd to even consider something which can measure that which can affect the measurement. In other words, we cannot determine whether a limitless will is involved for our will is not limitless and thus our perceptions are potentially affected by this Limitless will and thus unreliable ala Descartes' Trickster.

@Binyamin Tsadik,

It could be argued that the existence of the universe is a miracle. We're certainly not having much success in trying to prove that it isn't. Ditto for consciousness. I'm not suggesting that these are miracles, as opposed to mysteries, but I don't see what's to stop someone arguing that they are.

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