Logic and Reality

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Fido
 
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2008 08:54 pm
@Kielicious,
Kielicious wrote:
I already stated this type of reasoning before... logic is not a human attribute, it just is, period.

Get real sir... You cannot say the night exists without us to give night meaning... We use logic and give it meaning... So it is certainly a human activity if not a quality... We might we say we have been selected for it, that those who cold best use it were most likely to survive...
 
Aedes
 
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2008 10:12 pm
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;38337 wrote:
logic is not solely a human attribute, it just is, period.
Prove it.

The mere fact that you can make a sweeping statement about all nature and conflate it with the very concept of logic is telling. You do not know all of nature. You are ASSUMING based on your own logic that it must all be logical, though, even the stuff you are unaware of. You're thus incapable of separating your own use of logic from your inferences about it as a quality.

Don't you get this? That the only way you can make any kind of "educated" intuition about all of existence is through logic. So your ability to make an inference about some objective logic is 100% beholden to your own logical process. They're synonymous. This is psychology, not metaphysics or logic we're ironing out here...
 
Kielicious
 
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2008 10:38 pm
@Aedes,
Again the cirlces continue...

If logic was solely a human attribute than there would be other forms of logic. But is there? No. If there is then please inform me and the rest of the world because we havent stumbled upon it.

Aedes, using the 'absolute certainty card' is not a persuasive argument. Your just begging the question. Although, if logic isnt an intrinsic part of realilty then, once again, SHOW ME ONE THING THAT HAS BEEN IDENTIFIED AS ILLOGICAL.

You guys just keep looking for something miniscule as a point of refutation. You guys claim what.... that we dont know 100%? that logic is a human 'tool'? If so, then show me some proof onus.... you guys claim alot but where's your proof? Where's your evidence? Instead I show you logic everywhere and you show me nothing. How lopsided this debate is....


Edit: Fido, I didnt mean its not a human attribute, but its not only a human attribute. I fixed it after you quoted...
 
Aedes
 
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2008 10:52 pm
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;38362 wrote:
If logic was solely a human attribute than there would be other forms of logic.
Not necessarily. "Good" is also a human judgement -- would you also say that since good is a human attribute that there are other forms of good?

Quote:
Aedes, using the 'absolute certainty card' is not a persuasive argument.
It persuades me. Why should I believe a word you say about things you don't even know exist?

Quote:
If logic isnt an intrinsic part of realilty then, once again, SHOW ME ONE THING THAT HAS BEEN IDENTIFIED AS ILLOGICAL... You guys just keep looking for something miniscule as a point of refutation.
No, you do with the above question, which betrays a truly solipsistic idea of what logic even is. You challenge us to go through an oxymoronic mental exercise. Things aren't "identified" as logical or illogical. Things just are what they are.

Quote:
You guys claim what.... that we dont know 100%? that logic is a human 'tool'? If so, then show me some proof onus....
LOL, I ask you for some external proof that logic consists in reality, and your response is just to evade the question by turning it around. Here's irrefutable proof that logic is a 100% human tool: the only place in the universe (that we're aware of) where something is described as "logical" is in the mind of a human being.
 
Kielicious
 
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2008 12:04 am
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
Not necessarily. "Good" is also a human judgement -- would you also say that since good is a human attribute that there are other forms of good?

It persuades me. Why should I believe a word you say about things you don't even know exist?

No, you do with the above question, which betrays a truly solipsistic idea of what logic even is. You challenge us to go through an oxymoronic mental exercise. Things aren't "identified" as logical or illogical. Things just are what they are.

LOL, I ask you for some external proof that logic consists in reality, and your response is just to evade the question by turning it around. Here's irrefutable proof that logic is a 100% human tool: the only place in the universe (that we're aware of) where something is described as "logical" is in the mind of a human being.


Logic is applied to reality, always, whether a human mind is there to percieve it or not. Stop clinging to solipsism, stop begging the question and stop evading evidence. Show me something, anything, instead of just throwing around useless ideas like it means something. Existence and nonexistence are logical states of being. There's my "proof." Now where's yours?
 
lakeshoredrive
 
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2008 12:19 am
@Kielicious,
Kielicious wrote:
Logic is applied to reality, always, whether a human mind is there to percieve it or not. Stop clinging to solipsism, stop begging the question and stop evading evidence. Show me something, anything, instead of just throwing around useless ideas like it means something. Existence and nonexistence are logical states of being. There's my "proof." Now where's yours?


I have no proof to verify the claim that logic exists only in the mind. I only know it to be true because I doubt everything's existence outside of the mind.
 
Kielicious
 
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2008 12:30 am
@lakeshoredrive,
lakeshoredrive wrote:
I have no proof...


At least your honest...
 
Aedes
 
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2008 05:55 am
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;38379 wrote:
Logic is applied to reality, always, whether a human mind is there to percieve it or not. There's my "proof."
There's what proof?

I think you have a very unorthodox understanding of the word logic that is inconsistent with its usual use. I'd like to see references that synonymize it with nature or existence as you keep insisting.

Quote:
Now where's yours?
Easy. Nothing is ever demonstrably logical UNLESS a human deems it so. There is no "objective" measure of logic. Thus, in 100% of instances of something being called logical, this determination has issued forth from the logical process of a human mind. The judgement is inseparable from the logic of the person.
 
Fido
 
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2008 06:14 am
@Kielicious,
I don't think the question is whether things exist without us so much as what meaning have they without us, and our lives.... And this meaning within our time is also a meaning within our space, so that the further away an event is, the less meaning it will have... If something occured on the far side of the galaxy that would be quite meaningful here, like the explosion of a star; what meaning would it have here... Is it logical if it is also meaningless??? Is logic a word with a certain meaning??? What is this word with a certain meaning applied to all that is uncertain???
 
Fido
 
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2008 06:31 am
@Kielicious,
Kielicious wrote:
Logic is applied to reality, always, whether a human mind is there to percieve it or not. Stop clinging to solipsism, stop begging the question and stop evading evidence. Show me something, anything, instead of just throwing around useless ideas like it means something. Existence and nonexistence are logical states of being. There's my "proof." Now where's yours?

You are living like a bug in a soap bubble, kid... Inside that bubble is what you know, and you know it because it is logical, and you do not understand that reality teaches logic, so what you do understand, which is practically everything, you do not understand because you have not learned its logic, that is, the rules and laws by which it works. but as you understand more, the edges of your bubble are pushed slightly further away from you, and while you can say you know more, you cannot say what part of existence is known, and what is unknown... You presume that all reality behaves in a logical fashion, and this is not to say we do not all hold that belief in some measure... Yet, it is simply a belief, and so you sound rather like a medieval theologin saying God could not behave in other than a rational fashion... Really??? Watch the fun of trying to prove that one...
 
Aedes
 
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2008 12:29 pm
@Fido,
I'd ask Kielicious, by the way, whether the universe corresponds to classical logic, symbolic logic, or some other form of logic? Does it correspond to mathematical logic? If so, does Godel's theorem bother him? Does it matter that our intuitive logic does not resemble formal logic? Does it matter that formal logic prevents us from even talking about things whose existence is unknown? Does it matter that logical schools are not 100% purely tautologous, and that they may conflict with one another? I mean which logic does the universe have, and how will we ever know?
 
Fido
 
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2008 12:55 pm
@Kielicious,
Don't know, can't know; can't say.
 
Kielicious
 
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2008 12:59 pm
@Aedes,
I never would have thought idealism, solipsism and such egocentric tendencies would be as rampant as they are on here. You guys say I'm the one that's gullible and putting forth a belief that somehow relies on faith...? Please. Look in the mirror for one second. I cannot disprove idealism as I cannot prove a negative. Keep clinging to such radical, idiotic and outdated beliefs. I guess Im done seeing how I cannot prove random solipsistic ideas false and you guys keep doubting, agree on nothing, be unproductive and continue to try and square the circle. Have fun.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2008 03:07 pm
@Kielicious,
Kielicious wrote:
Keep clinging to such radical, idiotic and outdated beliefs. I guess Im done...
You're indeed done if this is how you talk to people. We disagree with you. So what? It's not the end of the world. But the goal is to figure out what we REALLY disagree about.

I don't think you and I ACTUALLY disagree about whether the universe is inherently logical. What we disagree about is whether the word logic applies to some sort of natural consistency among natural phenomena, or whether it applies only to what seems logical to us.

But if you're going to call us radical and idiotic, then you need to worry more about the logic of your social interactions rather than the logic of Alpha Centauri.

With that in mind, let's put this on a more productive track, which means trying to find common ground and avoiding outbursts and frustration and lashing out. Otherwise, I think this thread may need to come to an unceremonious end.
 
JLP
 
Reply Wed 17 Dec, 2008 09:51 pm
@Aedes,
Those interested by the topics discussed in this thread (especially some of the questions proffered by Aedes) might find some enjoyment in Tor Norretrander's book The User Illusion.

Fascinating stuff regarding perception, consciousness, information theory, and mathematical logic (particularly Hilbert's Program, Russell's Paradox, Godel's Theorem, Chaitin's Theorem, etc.).
 
 

 
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