Logic and Reality

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Reply Fri 5 Dec, 2008 10:46 pm
Im sure this thread has been done before but I couldnt find it. I just have some questions that I want to see other people's opinions on the matter. Namely, the opposing because I want to be as objective as possible. So without further ado, lets get started...

Whenever I think about the universe I tend to think existentially. I dont know why, I just tend to think there has to be something about the universe or reality that is concrete. I dont know what that something is but whenver I think about logic and reality I cannot fathom an illogical reality. Obviously, some would say because logic is the "tool" of the brain and you cannot refute logic using logic and blah blah blah.... The way I see it is existence and non-existence are logical states of being. If something exists, it exists logically. Now, QM is very mind-boggling, but just because we dont understand how something exists (or doesnt exist) doesnt mean it isnt following a logical reality.

I understand I may be putting myself in the "lion's den" with this way of thinking but idc. For some reasons alot of "philosophers" would rather doubt everything than agree with one thing. So I'll ask for your help: How can there be an illogical reality or a reality that doesnt follow logic?

edit: maybe this should be moved idk
 
Fido
 
Reply Fri 5 Dec, 2008 11:02 pm
@Kielicious,
Kielicious wrote:
Im sure this thread has been done before but I couldnt find it. I just have some questions that I want to see other people's opinions on the matter. Namely, the opposing because I want to be as objective as possible. So without further ado, lets get started...

Whenever I think about the universe I tend to think existentially. I dont know why, I just tend to think there has to be something about the universe or reality that is concrete. I dont know what that something is but whenver I think about logic and reality I cannot fathom an illogical reality. Obviously, some would say because logic is the "tool" of the brain and you cannot refute logic using logic and blah blah blah.... The way I see it is existence and non-existence are logical states of being. If something exists, it exists logically. Now, QM is very mind-boggling, but just because we dont understand how something exists (or doesnt exist) doesnt mean it isnt following a logical reality.

I understand I may be putting myself in the "lion's den" with this way of thinking but idc. For some reasons alot of "philosophers" would rather doubt everything than agree with one thing. So I'll ask for your help: How can there be an illogical reality or a reality that doesnt follow logic?

edit: maybe this should be moved idk

Man if you think there is something about the universe that is concrete now, wait till some moron fills up your lunch box with it two hours before lunch... It will make you mad enough to kick a rock...
 
nameless
 
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 01:31 am
@Fido,
Fido;36738 wrote:
It will make you mad enough to kick a rock...

When you are sleeping at night and dream that you dream kick a dream rock and hurt your dream toe, ouch, of what, exactly, does that bad old rock consist, that it has hurt you so?
I guess that since you kicked it and you hurt your toe somehow proves the 'real objective material concreteness' (or obsidianness or granitenss or quartzness...) of the rock, eh? What's it made of?
 
Kielicious
 
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 02:42 am
@nameless,
i take it you guys cant help me out with my problem
 
Aedes
 
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 08:12 am
@Kielicious,
Kielicious wrote:
Whenever I think about the universe I tend to think existentially. I dont know why, I just tend to think there has to be something about the universe or reality that is concrete.
You're using the word existential in a strange way here, I'm not sure what you mean.

Quote:
I dont know what that something is but whenver I think about logic and reality I cannot fathom an illogical reality.
Read Gravity's Rainbow by Pynchon, or any novel by Philip K. Dick or Tom Robbins. It may be that any inherent logic within nature is disconnected from the logical process of our minds.

Quote:
The way I see it is existence and non-existence are logical states of being. If something exists, it exists logically.
Things that exist just are what they are. They do what they do, they exist how they exist. LOGIC is our way of understanding it -- it's not intrinsic to things. And areas of science that assert unpredictability (like chaos theory, and like Heisenberg uncertainty), demonstrate that if reality is logical we will never know for sure...
 
jgweed
 
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 08:29 am
@Kielicious,
A statement about reality (or "what is the case") can be logical or not, but this does not mean (and I am unclear here about what is meant by) reality must be logical to exist.

While I think a great deal of reality depends on human interpretation for it to be-what-it-is (for us), and much of it is socially constructed, there does seem a part of reality that stubbornly refuses to go away and intrudes itself on our everyday existence.

And, of course, we might be deluded into thinking there is something called a "state of being" instead of a continual process of becoming, just as we watch a dog running through a field and instead of seeing the running see the dog.
 
xris
 
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 08:39 am
@nameless,
nameless wrote:
When you are sleeping at night and dream that you dream kick a dream rock and hurt your dream toe, ouch, of what, exactly, does that bad old rock consist, that it has hurt you so?
I guess that since you kicked it and you hurt your toe somehow proves the 'real objective material concreteness' (or obsidianness or granitenss or quartzness...) of the rock, eh? What's it made of?
As ive never kicked a rock in my dreams does that mean that dreams dont exist?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 09:16 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
As ive never kicked a rock in my dreams does that mean that dreams dont exist?


Dreams exist, but dream-rocks don't.
 
Fido
 
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 10:12 am
@nameless,
nameless wrote:
When you are sleeping at night and dream that you dream kick a dream rock and hurt your dream toe, ouch, of what, exactly, does that bad old rock consist, that it has hurt you so?
I guess that since you kicked it and you hurt your toe somehow proves the 'real objective material concreteness' (or obsidianness or granitenss or quartzness...) of the rock, eh? What's it made of?


How often do people not know how they feel because they feel too much, and know how they are supposed to feel and so they feel that, or even feel something totally inapropriate??? Have you ever went through the birth of a child or the death of a loved one??? It is like having a whole catolog of emotion thrown at you, and you might give it a single name, like grief, or joy, or happiness, or excitment, but what you feel is what you feel and naming it does not help... So, you kick, you hurt, and it could be a cramp, or it could be that knowing what you are suppose to feel because everyone has stubbed their toe, you relive the pain where you feel all things, in your mind... If you want to know about rock, it was a thought from Boswells life of Johnson, our first dictionarian, -a harmless enough drudge, and it was a reply to some sort of philosophers question of reality.. But it does remind me of one of those underdog sorts or tale from my construction days...

BTW reality is not real because we can objectively prove it real, but because we feel it is real, and so God is real, and so is nothing. If you do not believe we know by our senses follow a child around because they will use all their senses to gather knowledge even in the most unwholsome manors.
 
Fido
 
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 10:13 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:
Dreams exist, but dream-rocks don't.

Dreams do not exist, but live while we live, and humanity exists because we dream...
 
Fido
 
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 10:15 am
@Kielicious,
Kielicious wrote:
i take it you guys cant help me out with my problem

What is your problem???Punctuation???

What you talk about as a lion's den is really my mouth... And not to be unfair, but one must know to think, and so if I point out an answer, it will not be to you any more good than a ladder without rungs... You need to read more, and of philosophy stuff, like Plato and Aristotle for a start, not neglecting Kant who is very logical, but almost anyone able to think in a step by step fashion to help you to first define the problem clearly and then seek a concrete solution, to borrow your word... The most concrete thing we will ever have in life is our lives which are the most elusive and fleeting of qualities, always endangered and doomed so that our constant normal state if we are conscious is one of grief for our lives already lost... So if you want to know, and Knowledge is Good, first know what others learned, and then your thought will not seem as wandering in a desert.
 
nameless
 
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 04:41 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;36780 wrote:
Dreams exist, but dream-rocks don't.

Zat so?
How is it that you are aware of something that 'doesn't exist'?
Wouldn't it have to exist in your perceptions/concepts/memory for you to even make the statement that 'it doesn't exist'?
I would think that the 'rock' is, at least' a feature of the dream, which you say 'exists'.
Perhaps you have a 'particular' definition of 'existence'?

For your edification;

"Everything exists.
Existence is Context.
Everything exists in context."
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 04:51 pm
@Fido,
Fido wrote:
Dreams do not exist, .


I had a dream last night. You'll have to take my word for it.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 04:56 pm
@nameless,
nameless wrote:
Zat so?
How is it that you are aware of something that 'doesn't exist'?
Wouldn't it have to exist in your perceptions/concepts/memory for you to even make the statement that 'it doesn't exist'?
I would think that the 'rock' is, at least' a feature of the dream, which you say 'exists'.
Perhaps you have a 'particular' definition of 'existence'?

For your edification;

"Everything exists.
Existence is Context.
Everything exists in context."


Not at all. The rock I dreamed of does not exist. What exists in my perception is a perception of something, but not that something. What exists in my memory of X is my memory of X, but not X. For instance, I remember my Uncle Joe. But he is dead. So my memory of Uncle Joe exists, but Uncle Joe no longer exists. I remember the WTC. But the WTC does not exist. But my memory of the WTC does exist.
 
nameless
 
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 05:03 pm
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;36733 wrote:
So I'll ask for your help: How can there be an illogical reality or a reality that doesnt follow logic?

The tools of perception, that are you, are 'perfect' for perceiving what you do. There is no 'logic' but in your/as your thoughts. If you open your eyes and thoughtlessly watch the pearly clouds floating in an azure sky, there is no logic. Logic is an assumption of a 'logical tool' that identifies with the 'measured'.
A 'yardstick' will measure 'distance', and if that is your only 'tool', your world will be fill of distances to be measured. 'Reality' might also contain liquids to be 'perceived/measured/analyzed' by mass and volumetric measurements. Perhaps amother Perspective is capable of perceiving those 'features' of 'Reality'. You perceive 'Reality' through your limited (and unique) 'lens' as do we all.
The complete picture of existence/universe at any moment is the sum total of all Perspectives. The tiny feature of 'logic', appearing in/as your thoughts, is but a 'micro-feature' of a Reality completely beyond the capacity of your tiny 'measuring device', human.

"Our true nature is beyond thought, and can only be discerned when one abides in the present and serenely reflects the wonder of existence."

"The function of our mind is as a perceiver (in receptive awareness), but our thoughts find their origin in the memories of the mind's perception."

For you, 'reality' is what is perceived by you, a feature of the complete 'Reality' that is perceived by all, moment a moment.
 
nameless
 
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 05:19 pm
@xris,
xris;36777 wrote:
As ive never kicked a rock in my dreams...

I'm going to assume (I'm sure that you'll correct me if assume incorrectly) that you did get my point and are just going here (non-sequitur aside) for ammusement;
In response;
Actually what this statement means to me is that, you have no memory of ever having kicked a rock in a dream (in this moment, you might have a different memory in another moment) but might have done so (experienced the dream) nontheless. For the moment, perhaps your's would be an honest statement, but still, perhaps, incorrect. A 'belief'...

Quote:
does that mean that dreams dont exist?

Of course not (non-sequitur). What has the 'content' of a particular dream have to do with the existence of dreams as a feature of existence? If you have ever had a dream or heard about a dream or have any other concept of 'dream' then, for you, yes, dreams exist.
 
nameless
 
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 05:38 pm
@Fido,
Fido;36788 wrote:
How often do people not know how they feel because they feel too much,

'How' we feel as opposed to 'what' we feel?
Can one 'feel too much'?
One feels exactly what one feels, no less, no more, as 'shallow' or as 'deeply' as we do, at any particular moment. One feeling is a feeling of being overwhelmed with feelings.
Whats all this about feelings? How relevent? My point has nothing to do with 'feelings', per se.

Quote:
and know how they are supposed to feel and so they feel that, or even feel something totally inapropriate???

Inappropriate from who's Perspective? Are you talking about what is commonly referred to as 'mental illness'?

Quote:
... you relive the pain where you feel all things, in your mind...

Where you 'feel' all things, and where 'exists' all things!

Quote:
If you want to know about rock, it was a thought from Boswells life of Johnson, our first dictionarian, -a harmless enough drudge, and it was a reply to some sort of philosophers question of reality.. But it does remind me of one of those underdog sorts or tale from my construction days...

Naive realism. As we know, kicking a rock 'proves' nothing.

Quote:
BTW reality is not real because ...

'Reality' is (period! There is no 'because'), for us, whatever we perceive it/manifest it to be, from these limited Perspectives.
The complete universe, at the moment, is the sum total of all Perspectives.
 
Fido
 
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 07:43 pm
@nameless,
nameless wrote:
'How' we feel as opposed to 'what' we feel?
Can one 'feel too much'?
One feels exactly what one feels, no less, no more, as 'shallow' or as 'deeply' as we do, at any particular moment. One feeling is a feeling of being overwhelmed with feelings.
Whats all this about feelings? How relevent? My point has nothing to do with 'feelings', per se.


Inappropriate from who's Perspective? Are you talking about what is commonly referred to as 'mental illness'?


Where you 'feel' all things, and where 'exists' all things!


Naive realism. As we know, kicking a rock 'proves' nothing.


'Reality' is (period! There is no 'because'), for us, whatever we perceive it/manifest it to be, from these limited Perspectives.
The complete universe, at the moment, is the sum total of all Perspectives.

Is a naive realism inferior to an eligant unrealism... What do you think?.. That because the cave man could not prove his reality that he lived in an unreal world... It would seem so since he was surrounded by spirits we seldom accept as real... Let me suggest something.. That the problem for him was that same as for us, to disprove unrealism since reality cannot be proved, and his solution was not proof, but testimony, because he could testify- so long as he lived that he lived yesterday, and the day before... Look at all of our forms, and see how much of it involves recognition, secret hand shakes, uniforms, common oaths; and ask yourself what purpose we have in such behavior, because I think that recognition is a primary part of the form, and just as our forms lead to our realization in fact, because they support survival, still, we need the reminder that we are here, we are some one, not insignificant, but real, and essential, and we remind ourselves of this every time we say hello and acknowledge eash other... All we have is our testimony that we are not unreal...And that is the only reality we feel need to prove, because so long as we can prove ourselves, our world exists. With out our own being there is no being.

The purpose of kicking the rock was to disprove nothing...
 
Kielicious
 
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 08:13 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:


Read Gravity's Rainbow by Pynchon, or any novel by Philip K. Dick or Tom Robbins. It may be that any inherent logic within nature is disconnected from the logical process of our minds.


ill check it out


Aedes wrote:
Things that exist just are what they are. They do what they do, they exist how they exist. LOGIC is our way of understanding it -- it's not intrinsic to things. And areas of science that assert unpredictability (like chaos theory, and like Heisenberg uncertainty), demonstrate that if reality is logical we will never know for sure...


I agree things exist just are what they are. A=A that's it, there's nothing more to it than that and thats logical. Also how is logic only "our" way of understanding? what other kind of logic is there?


Fido wrote:
What is your problem???Punctuation???

Fido wrote:
then your thought will not seem as wandering in a desert.


the irony...


jgweed wrote:
A statement about reality (or "what is the case") can be logical or not, but this does not mean (and I am unclear here about what is meant by) reality must be logical to exist.

While I think a great deal of reality depends on human interpretation for it to be-what-it-is (for us), and much of it is socially constructed, there does seem a part of reality that stubbornly refuses to go away and intrudes itself on our everyday existence.

And, of course, we might be deluded into thinking there is something called a "state of being" instead of a continual process of becoming, just as we watch a dog running through a field and instead of seeing the running see the dog.


To me logic refuses to go away. As I said before I cannot fathom an illogical reality. A=A how could it not? In an illogical reality A=B? but that cannot be everytime for it would be following some sort of consistency if A only equals B, which is a form of logic. So A would have to equal any and everything infinitely...
 
nameless
 
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 09:27 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;36817 wrote:
Not at all. The rock I dreamed of does not exist. What exists in my perception is a perception of something, but not that something. What exists in my memory of X is my memory of X, but not X. For instance, I remember my Uncle Joe. But he is dead. So my memory of Uncle Joe exists, but Uncle Joe no longer exists. I remember the WTC. But the WTC does not exist. But my memory of the WTC does exist.

Perhaps you might read my post again with the specific intent of actually understanding what I said. Understanding does not necessarily mean acceptance.
There has been no refutation, and you certainly cannot offer one, so whats really your problem?

Again;

"Everything exists.
Existence is Context.
Everything exists in context."


Try hard to understand what that means, when you do, you'll find that there is no refutation. All other definitions of existence are 'subsets' of the 'set' offered.
 
 

 
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