The Mind Is A Secondary Organ

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boagie
 
Reply Fri 9 Feb, 2007 12:45 pm
Hi Y'all!,

The mind is a secondary organ in serves to the community of the body.The body is not in serves to the mind or only in a secondary nature.If this reality where embraced by society, how do you imagine it would re-structure society,what changes in laws,morality and values would occur--------what would the place look like?

It is a dreamy moving not quite thing,only the illusion is the grasp of the ring.
_______________________________________


Hi Mom!Smile

Speaking of the mind as a secondary organ,this came up at the coffee shop yesterday morning--right! It seems now with the study of our biological rythms their effect on us as organisms is more profound then previously thought,we are an intricate time piece,keeping time with the spheres and where that time becomes distorted we become sick,perhaps in degree, grand or in-between.They now believe that these disturbances cause by, not enough light,to much light,not enough dark,to much dark, has thrown our systems off.This is just an example of living againt ones biological nature.Everyone knows how difficult it would be to live a natural life in an industrial reality.To live life accordding to the principle of the mind as a secondary organ in serves to the body would be impossiable,but the only sane way to live.
________________________________________


Smile One day consciousness built itself a brain, this multicelluar organism now calls itself Harry and entertains the most wonderus delusions.:rolleyes: come listen, Harry thinks he is it!:eek: Now, Harry may be the mayor, but as unfortunate as that might be, he has lost touch with his community and when that happens, the whole community suffers.:p

Give it some thought, not only is the mind/brain a secondary organ, but how often in discussion of philosophical questions, example identity, is it discussed from the prospective of a multicellular organism. How often is it pointed out that the whole body is consciousness.One can get a hint of what it might feel like to be a member of the community that forms the body, simple by ones function as a private citizen in a given community.Our inventions,technology and institutions are expressions of our biology.What do you think?
 
Justin
 
Reply Fri 12 Oct, 2007 03:17 pm
@boagie,
Boagie, I understand what you are saying here. However, I consider the brain to the what you are talking about rather than the mind. Mind being universal and spiritual, brain being the molecular structure seated in the head which records the physical sensations of the body. The brain being the device, the mind being creation and creativity.

Therefore, I would think that the person who thinks solely with the brain is living in the physical universe of matter. The one who thinks in the light of the mind, is one who thinks internally, spiritually, etc etc. So brain and mind could not be considered the same thing.

The body, depending on ones understanding of consciousness... regardless, would be the vessel of the mind. People are under the misconception that they are their body and that's not correct. If you were to sever your arm off and toss it over on the other side of the room, would you be your arm? No, you are still you which is not the body but the mind or spirit. The poem is not the poet, the music is not the musician and the creation is not necessarily the creator.

Those are my thoughts on your post and I really cannot go any further with my understanding. We are one community separated by the physical. So when we build others, in essence, we build the community. When we destroy others, we destroy community.

Look forward to your thoughts....
 
boagie
 
Reply Sat 13 Oct, 2007 08:36 am
@Justin,
Justin wrote:
Boagie, I understand what you are saying here. However, I consider the brain to the what you are talking about rather than the mind. Mind being universal and spiritual, brain being the molecular structure seated in the head which records the physical sensations of the body. The brain being the device, the mind being creation and creativity.

Therefore, I would think that the person who thinks solely with the brain is living in the physical universe of matter. The one who thinks in the light of the mind, is one who thinks internally, spiritually, etc etc. So brain and mind could not be considered the same thing.

The body, depending on ones understanding of consciousness... regardless, would be the vessel of the mind. People are under the misconception that they are their body and that's not correct. If you were to sever your arm off and toss it over on the other side of the room, would you be your arm? No, you are still you which is not the body but the mind or spirit. The poem is not the poet, the music is not the musician and the creation is not necessarily the creator.

Those are my thoughts on your post and I really cannot go any further with my understanding. We are one community separated by the physical. So when we build others, in essence, we build the community. When we destroy others, we destroy community.

Look forward to your thoughts....


Hi Justin!Smile

I would say that the brain is the function of the body, produced by the consciouness of that body.The mind is a function of the brain and creativity the function of mind. I am unsure what you mean by the universality of the mind, so I will reseve comment until you expand on that topic a little.

It is a very unusual perspective you have reguarding what you identify with, certainly you would have difficulty forming such a habit of mind with your arm. I think this business of rating parts, body and mind is a carry over from early Christian teachings. The brain evolved form the inside out, the most recent addition might be said to be the least elementary. There are organisms which survive with a simple brainstem, or a bunch of lose ganglia,or no visiable brain whatsoever, so a fully developed brain is not essential to the survival of an organism.

Never the less, it is the body which produces the brain not the brain which produces the body.You are not a singular identity and I believe that the commonality of the bodily community is what recognized itself in others, it is the bases of compassion, it even recognizes itself in other forms, or one would not have compassion for the suffering of animals. It would seem rather obvious that the community of the body, our biology, expresses itself in the form of human communities, from a biological blueprint it is produced in the outside world.

This community of the body insures its continued existence through reproduction of like structures, the sense of individual indentity is no more than a highly functional illusion, so sucessful it forgets it real essence, it is the same essence from generation to generation. An inventor might do well to look for the models of his creations in the biology of his own being.
 
perplexity
 
Reply Sat 13 Oct, 2007 10:45 am
@boagie,
http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif

Meditation Alters Brain Structure

The regular practice of religious mediatation affects the physical structure of the brain, which is to say that the brain is a function of the mind,

QED.
 
Justin
 
Reply Sat 13 Oct, 2007 11:42 am
@perplexity,
perplexity wrote:
http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif

Meditation Alters Brain Structure

The regular practice of religious mediatation affects the physical structure of the brain, which is to say that the brain is a function of the mind,

QED.

Why the thumbs down? Anyway, I believe you are correct. Meditation however does not have to be labeled as religious meditation. Meditation is meditation, religious or not. ... And, meditation can effect the physical structure of the brain as well as other physiological components of the body. Therefore, I'd agree that the brain is in essence a function of the mind yet they serve two different purposes.
 
boagie
 
Reply Sat 13 Oct, 2007 11:44 am
@perplexity,
perplexity wrote:
http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif

Meditation Alters Brain Structure

The regular practice of religious mediatation affects the physical structure of the brain, which is to say that the brain is a function of the mind,

QED.


perplexity,Smile

Very interesting! I will reserve much in the way of comment until I have throughly read this article. I may be mistaken but I think what they are saying is that the function of the brain can be altered, there seems to be a close connection between structure and function. I think as yet it is a great leap of faith to say the brain is the function of the mind. As to origin it is even a greater jump to absurdity at this point. Excerise too changes the structure of the body but it does not change its basic nature, use it or lose it has always been true.
 
perplexity
 
Reply Sat 13 Oct, 2007 12:09 pm
@boagie,
Here is another to peruse:

Are humans 'hard-wired' to believe in God?

http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif
 
Justin
 
Reply Sat 13 Oct, 2007 12:16 pm
@boagie,
:)Boagie, I'm not sure what is meant my consciousness of the body.

Universal mind that I refer to is the one source of all creation. I believe that there is only one source and one mind divided in the light of creation. Some refer to this as God. So when I refer to Universal Mind, I'm speaking of God.

My point is not the rating of parts nor does it come from early Christian teachings. Christianity, that I know identifies with the body. My point with the arm was that how can you be your arm? What if it was your leg that was severed and thrown across the room... are you your leg? Who are you then?

Once the spirit leaves the body, the body breaks down from a very complex assortment of elements to a very simple form. This causes your body to begin to smell and start to deteriorate... brain included. The brain is a physical structure of matter within the body which is also matter. The mind (or spirit), however is much greater than that of the body. Although the body is going to die or refold back into the universe, the energy of the spirit is eternal and forever.

The body produces nothing. It is a tool used to manifest the creation of the mind or spirit. A mans body is simply a vessel in which he can control with his mind. The body has no ability to do anything other than what the soul permits. All of these things... mind, spirit and soul can be considered One thing. It can of course be referred to as Father, Son and Holy Spirit as well. It depends on how one was taught.

Our body is the expression of our mind. What our body does, the relationships our body forms, and the illness our body attracts are manifestations of the mind. There is no greater source than the Universal mind which is present in every living being.

The difficulty with this is that we are trained right from birth to think with our physical brain. We are trained that we are prodigal sons of God. We grow up learning by the use of our 7 senses. We are told that is hot, and when we touch it, it is hot and that sense is recorded by the brain. We are taught to study and do homework and to read and learn from history, these are all the knowledge of the senses. No new knowledge comes from that. There are not many, if any schools that teach children to think with their mind rather than their brain. So humanity as a whole is taught only that which the scientific world can explain and can be measured by the senses of the body. Well, if man is not 'body', then what is man?

In your last statement you said: "An inventor might do well to look for the models of his creations in the biology of his own being." All great inventors already do this. However, they don't look for it in biology, they actually invent it in their mind first then create the manifestation of it in the physical realm. Biology is short lived, just as our lives are short lived... (our physical existence), but our mind is not our body and is forever.

When it comes to identity, people make the grave mistake of forming their identity based on the physical creations surrounding them... like, what car they drive, how they are dressed, who their click of friends are and all those other things, and this is because people can identify with this kind of status quo type stuff. However, this type of identity is false. Mankind will continue to falsely identify himself with physical world of earthly things until he understands that he is not his body and his identity is not something separate from God and his creation.

In Christian teachings, we are taught that we are separate and distant from God and anything else is blasphemy. When in truth, we are creation of God and not separate from him... But, how is one to know that when they are instructed only on the teachings of the world rather than the teachings of the divine light that is present in all creation.

I hope I have been able to somewhat explain my original post. Certainly look forward to your thoughts on this and anyone else who cares to join in.
 
boagie
 
Reply Sat 13 Oct, 2007 12:18 pm
@perplexity,
Smile perplexity,

How is it relevant to the mind as a secondary organ?
 
Justin
 
Reply Sat 13 Oct, 2007 12:44 pm
@boagie,
Mind simply is not an organ at all. Brain is an organ, mind is not.
 
perplexity
 
Reply Sat 13 Oct, 2007 01:16 pm
@Justin,
c.f. the first verse of

The Dhammapada:


1.
Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.

Dhp I: The Pairs

alternatively translated:

1. Phenomena are preceded by the heart,
ruled by the heart, made of the heart.
If you speak or act with a corrupted heart, then suffering follows you -
as the wheel of the cart, the track of the ox that pulls it.

Dhp I: Yamakavagga
 
boagie
 
Reply Sat 13 Oct, 2007 01:38 pm
@Justin,
Justin wrote:
:)Boagie, I'm not sure what is meant my consciousness of the body.

Universal mind that I refer to is the one source of all creation. I believe that there is only one source and one mind divided in the light of creation. Some refer to this as God. So when I refer to Universal Mind, I'm speaking of God.

My point is not the rating of parts nor does it come from early Christian teachings. Christianity, that I know identifies with the body. My point with the arm was that how can you be your arm? What if it was your leg that was severed and thrown across the room... are you your leg? Who are you then?

Once the spirit leaves the body, the body breaks down from a very complex assortment of elements to a very simple form. This causes your body to begin to smell and start to deteriorate... brain included. The brain is a physical structure of matter within the body which is also matter. The mind (or spirit), however is much greater than that of the body. Although the body is going to die or refold back into the universe, the energy of the spirit is eternal and forever.

The body produces nothing. It is a tool used to manifest the creation of the mind or spirit. A mans body is simply a vessel in which he can control with his mind. The body has no ability to do anything other than what the soul permits. All of these things... mind, spirit and soul can be considered One thing. It can of course be referred to as Father, Son and Holy Spirit as well. It depends on how one was taught.

Our body is the expression of our mind. What our body does, the relationships our body forms, and the illness our body attracts are manifestations of the mind. There is no greater source than the Universal mind which is present in every living being.

The difficulty with this is that we are trained right from birth to think with our physical brain. We are trained that we are prodigal sons of God. We grow up learning by the use of our 7 senses. We are told that is hot, and when we touch it, it is hot and that sense is recorded by the brain. We are taught to study and do homework and to read and learn from history, these are all the knowledge of the senses. No new knowledge comes from that. There are not many, if any schools that teach children to think with their mind rather than their brain. So humanity as a whole is taught only that which the scientific world can explain and can be measured by the senses of the body. Well, if man is not 'body', then what is man?

In your last statement you said: "An inventor might do well to look for the models of his creations in the biology of his own being." All great inventors already do this. However, they don't look for it in biology, they actually invent it in their mind first then create the manifestation of it in the physical realm. Biology is short lived, just as our lives are short lived... (our physical existence), but our mind is not our body and is forever.

When it comes to identity, people make the grave mistake of forming their identity based on the physical creations surrounding them... like, what car they drive, how they are dressed, who their click of friends are and all those other things, and this is because people can identify with this kind of status quo type stuff. However, this type of identity is false. Mankind will continue to falsely identify himself with physical world of earthly things until he understands that he is not his body and his identity is not something separate from God and his creation.

In Christian teachings, we are taught that we are separate and distant from God and anything else is blasphemy. When in truth, we are creation of God and not separate from him... But, how is one to know that when they are instructed only on the teachings of the world rather than the teachings of the divine light that is present in all creation.

I hope I have been able to somewhat explain my original post. Certainly look forward to your thoughts on this and anyone else who cares to join in.






Hi Justin,Smile

Lets take the consciousness of the body first, all your involenary functions heartbeat, breathing the various balances maintained by the body would fall into this catagory. If one had the responsibility of actually consciously knowning how to digest ones food one would starve to death. Actually I think the subconcious is the larger reality of our biological being.

As to this universality as being the one source, intuitively I agree, we are part of something whole. As too your analogy of the arm and/or leg not being the essence of what you are, one could remove most of the brain leaveing a functioning brainstem, the essence of what you are is when maintained.The various body parts have specific functions, the function of an arm is not orientation, just as the orientation of the brain or mind is not to do the actual lifting but to simply direct that lifting. If you live in a community, is the source of its being in any one area, true there would be a great problem if cityhall was blown up, but the community would elect and build a new one, even if in a new location.

You state that the energy of the spirit is eturnal, the energy of anything is eturnal if you are considering its nature as matter/energy. As a form of immortality it is little comfort to most, but that may be due to thinking we are something we are not.

You state that our body is an expression of our mind. I would say our mind/brain is an expression of our body, a product of the consicousness of that body.The fact that the brain is a fairly recent development should indicate the truth of this. You state that the inventor does not look to his biology for the models of his creation, but uses his mind as the model of his creation.This is still his biology, a great many inventions are blatenley modeled upon the physical body, even fire/which is a discovery, has been compared to the fire/oxidation of the digestive system. You want the mind to be something apart from the body and it simply is not.

You state that the disease of the body are manifestations of the mind which is obviously not true, at least not entirely, what of bacteria, virusus this things are life forms too, the body as a whole is home to any number of living forms which aid in digestion and maintaince of the body, we do not worry about them because they have made themselves useful and indeed are part of what we are.

Your thoughts on identity I mostly agree with, people aquire their identity from their physcial context. I believe this, what identity there is, is one, there is no difference in the identity of living things or as the Upanishads say, "The self in one, is the self in all." If I missed something we can always backtrack.
 
boagie
 
Reply Sat 13 Oct, 2007 02:10 pm
@Justin,
Justin wrote:
Mind simply is not an organ at all. Brain is an organ, mind is not.


Justin,Smile

I did not infer that it was, it is a function, to say it is not a function of the brain is invalid.

Ok, I double checked myself, the statement was the mind is a secondary organ, inferring that the brain is a secondary organ, and mind is a function of that secondary organ, just a the brain is a function of the body.
 
Justin
 
Reply Sat 13 Oct, 2007 03:24 pm
@boagie,
You've made some valid points and I appreciate your response. I think that we are just semantically apart in the word 'mind'. To this I will refer to what Perplexity has stated above:
Quote:
Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.

Unpure mind, unpure spirit... when I refer to mind I'm not at all referring to the brain. Mind was present long before brain and body. Therefore, mind is above all and more powerful than all. Mind manipulates matter... however, for many, matter manipulates brain... Certainly and interesting topic. Anyone else care to expound on this?
 
boagie
 
Reply Sat 13 Oct, 2007 03:46 pm
@Justin,
Justin wrote:
You've made some valid points and I appreciate your response. I think that we are just semantically apart in the word 'mind'. To this I will refer to what Perplexity has stated above:

Unpure mind, unpure spirit... when I refer to mind I'm not at all referring to the brain. Mind was present long before brain and body. Therefore, mind is above all and more powerful than all. Mind manipulates matter... however, for many, matter manipulates brain... Certainly and interesting topic. Anyone else care to expound on this?

Justin,Smile

You take licence to expound upon things you provide no foundation for semantically speaking. There is no relation between the function of mind and the brain? As to the statement the mind proceeds mental states well that really is a no brainer isn't it, it is still a function of mind. Perhaps you could tell me were I might observe a mind independently in operation. This kind of foundationless talk is one of the reason I had no interest in this Russell character, I suspected it attracted that kind of fellowing.
 
perplexity
 
Reply Sat 13 Oct, 2007 05:15 pm
@boagie,
boagie wrote:
As to the statement the mind proceeds mental states well that really is a no brainer isn't it, it is still a function of mind.


Exactly, mind is the "no brainer".

:p
 
boagie
 
Reply Sat 13 Oct, 2007 05:22 pm
@perplexity,
You are pretentious are you.:p
 
perplexity
 
Reply Sat 13 Oct, 2007 07:21 pm
@boagie,
boagie wrote:
Perhaps you could tell me were I might observe a mind independently in operation.


About one in ten people has had an out-of-body experience at some time in their lives.

Some of those who experience OBEs may have willed themselves out of their bodies, while others found themselves being pulled from their bodies (usually preceded by a feeling of paralysis). In other accounts, the feeling of being outside the body was suddenly realized after the fact, and the experiencer saw their own bodies almost by accident.

Out-of-body experience - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif
 
Justin
 
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2007 06:43 am
@boagie,
What kind of foundation should I provide? Scientific proof? Science, with all their instruments and technology can't explain the mind or spirituality of man. This is something that each person will discover when they are ready to discover it.

As far as finding a mind for you to independently observe in operation... you don't have to look very far. I would direct you to nature and all of creation. There's really nothing independent about it. However, on a side note, our brain is something that can be independently observed because it is independent.

Boagie, if you are looking for something that you can measure and analyze then join the ranks of the top scientists in the world... the ones that have no explanation for the unseen world. That search has gone on for centuries and will continue to go on. The answer is behind door number one but the secret is to actually open it.

As far as Walter Russell, I've never met anyone who has read any of his works and had something negative to say about him, his philosophy or the scientific explanations he gives. Matter of fact, science today is starting to discover how right Russell really was. What he discovered almost a century ago, we're starting to discover now in science.

So, before you start saying something bad or negative about Walter Russell, I suggest you learn a little about who he was and why he was significant to science and humanity. Take a moment to read, "The Man Who Tapped the Secrets of the Universe". It's actually a very interesting story and history lesson written by a very good author. I really think you'll enjoy this little book many times over.
 
boagie
 
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2007 10:47 am
@Justin,
Hi Justin,Smile

My apology you had me all primed for an indepth discussion and to just cut it off. Basically I reacted badley, again my apology. I have to wonder though if I read Russell will I too feel it to be something one cannot relate to another. That is what I mean when I say it hints at something similar to faith. You have been patient, is that a product of these studies? I thank you for your introduction to the man.
 
 

 
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