I won't pretend to be able to answer this, but I've spent some time pondering similar questions.

It could very well be that the search for truth is never ending, so in a certain way, you never find it. Here are some examples.

If it is said that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West, it is a truth. One only needs to observe sunrise and sunset to confirm it. But to an observer from space (expanded perspective), the Earth revolves and orbits the sun. Both are truths based on perspective. I can't, with complete certainty, say the second example is "the" truth, it's just the best one for my present perspective.

A dream of being chased by a flying spaghetti monster, will seem real if one is completely asleep--heart rate may increase--one might wake up in a cold sweat. But, in that in-between state of sleep, the dream will not seem real. So, greater consciousness reveals a new reality. A teenager may worry about what brand of shoes he or she is wearing because that's the level of consciousness this teenager is experiencing. It's reality for him or her, but many of us outgrow that level of consciousness. My reality is relative to my level of consciousness at this time, it may be different tomorrow.

Mark Twain said in What is Man? this: "But I have seen several entirely sincere people who THOUGHT they were (permanent) Seekers after Truth. They sought diligently, persistently, carefully, cautiously, profoundly, with perfect honesty and nicely adjusted judgment--until they believed that without doubt or question they had found the Truth. THAT WAS THE END OF THE SEARCH. The man spent the rest of his life hunting up shingles wherewith to protect his Truth from the weather. If he was seeking after political Truth he found it in one or another of the hundred political gospels which govern men in the earth; if he was seeking after the Only True Religion he found it in one or another of the three thousand that are on the market. In any case, when he found the Truth HE SOUGHT NO FURTHER; but from that day forth, with his soldering-iron in one hand and his bludgeon in the other he tinkered its leaks and reasoned with objectors."

Perhaps one shouldn't worry so much about what is "the truth" and just enjoy the search.

In the 'Metaphysics' forum it is asked, "what is truth?". How about ...WHAT IS THE NATURE OF REALITY AS REGARDS TO ONE'S EXISTENCE? One way to clarify this question would be to answer the question- "Do you think 'reality' exists outside of your existence, independant of one's awareness of it?".......
....................Logos

Obviously. Science tells us that the earth antedated human being by at least 6 billion years. And I think my mother and father existed before I was born. Otherwise, I would find it hard to explain how I got here.

Logos,kennethamy,

As far a ancestory goes,all living things have an equal evolutionary history,true, your form did not remain the same, but your essence did----life. A Little something from the Upanishads,"The Self In One Is The Self In All," somethings are not mean't to be taken literally,the meaning of this is indeed in its literal intent.

Just a thought, when you separate an organism from it's environment is it still the same thing?

The fact remains that my mother and father are (necessarily) older that I am; and their parents (necessarily) older than they were. No use denying facts do as to maintain a theory. Not even in philosophy does everything go.

boagie: Thanks for your reply and stimulating thoughts. I am having trouble understanding your postion as stated. :confused: Please clarify the following concerns:


1) "Reality does not exist in the absence of an observer."
-Is this to say that I did not exist ( as a particular in reality ) until you (the observer) became aware of me?

Hello Logos,

Existences are things/objects which are percecived in space,unpreceived,there is nothing,existences depend on the perception of consciousness.In other words an objects reality is not in simply what it provides in the way of stimulus but in the way that stimulus effects consciousness and then how that consciousness processes said effect.So,without me logos you cease to exist-----we can workout a payment plan----------just kidding!!There are all kinds of consciousnesses aware of your existence,even your own awarness of your body as an object,it is a hard and fast rule, no consciouness/subject,no object,no reality,no world.

2) "The truck is there because you know it is there,you experience that packet of energy as your truck,if it was anything to the worm,it would not be a truck,but either way, both perceptions are consciousness dependent".

- I agree with you that the perception of a given object ( the information obtained is via the sense organs and thus a different species would sense the same object with different sense organs ( or in a differing quality of a given analogous organ ). The fact that the worm sees it as a worm sees it, I see it as a 1994 Mazda and a physicist can see it on a sub-atomic level does not invalidate the reality of this particular existing in reality ( ultimate or otherwise ). Each is perceiving the object by means of its effects on his consciousness. The object is there and is detected by the sense organs. The 'bombardment' of stimuli picked up by the senses of the object can be summed up, organized, observed and determined as 'real' properties designating a given object as a particular. Science is a good example of the practice of this. The object exists whether one is aware of it or not. I purchased the truck in 2005. Though I had no awareness of it prior to this date, it existed nevertheless since its manufacture date.

Try and get your money back---the truck isn't there!!!-----you've been had lad!!---just kidding!! You have nicely described the different states or conditions of consciousness of the verious people and organisms involved,which would allow them to see things somewhat differently.You don't seem to understand the premise is to remove all forms of consciousness,and in the said absence of all forms of consciousness there is nothing.There is not a physicist in the world that can prove the existence of apparent reality,for apparently reality is as much subject as object,perhaps more.That why Schopenhaur's statement,"Subject and Object stand or fall together still warrants respect.



3) "Ultimate reality would be unprocessed wave frequencies,photons,energies of different kinds,in other words,there would be nothing".
-These things ( frequencies, photons, energies ) are qualities of the given particular at a sub-atomic level. They are something, and must be organized in such a manner to remain consistent with the perception of the object in its macro-state. Otherwise the science of Chemistry and Physics would be arbitrary. Each compliments the other ( micro perspective vs. macro ) in describing the object as it is.

All the above is the function of consciousness,in its absence, there is nothing.




Lastly, if your argument is based on 'Apparent Reality' ( it can't be Absolute Reality based because that is unprocessed/nothing ) than how valid can it be? By its own definition it is subjective and tenuous, not real, but only apparent. Is it only true if it is observed to be true?

Absolute reality is not in need of consciousness, it is that unprocessed energy.To apparent reality consciouness is elemental,for it is in part,that said reality.There is no objective reality,at least not one we precieve,the only reality we have is subjective,apparent and an expression of what we are as creatures.






Honk if you love Jesus!! :p

boagie:

I understand. ........Logos