The Truth Is Out There

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Reply Tue 3 Oct, 2006 09:28 pm
Truth. what is truth and where can I get some?

It is possibly the greatest question of all, but the hardest to answer. What i mean by 'truth' in this situation is what is at the core of the great mysteries that everything else is a part of. For example, 'life'- is this realy reality? Is reality far different to what we make of it? Is our understanding of all that we know actually not actually understood at all? Have we created a reality which is actually an illusion? Are we correct in thinking we are higher, more advanced, or more important as we claim to be? Have we constructed everything we ponder over to fill in the gaps to the void of 'blandness' that actually awaits us when we realise the truth? Or alternativly is the truth far more brilliant than we can ever handle? Are we on the level of a dog that can not and will not ever conceive the magnificents of the stars, but in our arrigents try to do so anyway?Or are we ment to, as if its our ordained destiny?

Because we have fundermental questions to ponder of which hold the consequenses of our lives at stake, the questions that hold all other thoughts and theories as mere pointless sideline gossip and there fate as eligeble topics at the 'answers' mercy.

Can we seriously be commited to a belief or understanding if we even suspect that another angle or fact may put it into doubt? Is it possible that all things in existance can be linked, no matter how bazarre, far fetched, unproved or mundain? Is there a possibility that there is a great meaning out there or are we simply 'reading' too far into it? As lowly creatures do not get involved in such things is it supposed to be of our consern anyway?

Does it actually matter?

As much as i screw over and over these and others, I often conclude that we can never know even a fraction of the answers, so I attempt to streighten out my mind from my madness.But I always find myself walking back down the same lonely path searching for my holy grail.

Before someone trys it,Ive done the whole christian thing already!

I can say three things for sure, 1:Iv been as involved as anybody can get,experiencing things you wouldnt believe,doing things that I only would have done if I had complete faith. 2Despite being what i would call confused, there are things ill never completly stop believing in. 3:I once was about the most appologetic,feverant preacher you could ever meet, and Im only 23, ive done it all, heard it all and explained it all to all, so theres nothing anyone can say to change this one thing;You realy cant prove anything exspeasilly by using the Bible, except a few things maybe!The fact is, at Jesus' time there were others doing exactly the same things he was doing, for example and even Josh Macdough can be argued against (I have misspelt his name). This will anoy all christians, im sorry but this is what ive concluded after years of being on the front line!

The real issue remains, what is the truth. I do think there is a creator God, I do believe it is EILOHIM (YHWH).This can be proven, but how does it link with everything else;How do we wash away the rubbish, and falsehoods and millenias of added lies and twisted half truths to reveal the reality, or mystery of our universe.

This was not ment to be a religious peice,but I feel it had to be said, and if its true- let it be included in whichever way it is ment to be.

If anybody has anything to add or discuss, please by all means. But in the nature of advansment lets keep it productive, thank you.
 
chad3006
 
Reply Thu 21 Dec, 2006 09:08 pm
@pilgrimshost,
I won't pretend to be able to answer this, but I've spent some time pondering similar questions.

It could very well be that the search for truth is never ending, so in a certain way, you never find it. Here are some examples.

If it is said that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West, it is a truth. One only needs to observe sunrise and sunset to confirm it. But to an observer from space (expanded perspective), the Earth revolves and orbits the sun. Both are truths based on perspective. I can't, with complete certainty, say the second example is "the" truth, it's just the best one for my present perspective.

A dream of being chased by a flying spaghetti monster, will seem real if one is completely asleep--heart rate may increase--one might wake up in a cold sweat. But, in that in-between state of sleep, the dream will not seem real. So, greater consciousness reveals a new reality. A teenager may worry about what brand of shoes he or she is wearing because that's the level of consciousness this teenager is experiencing. It's reality for him or her, but many of us outgrow that level of consciousness. My reality is relative to my level of consciousness at this time, it may be different tomorrow.

Mark Twain said in What is Man? this: "But I have seen several entirely sincere people who THOUGHT they were (permanent) Seekers after Truth. They sought diligently, persistently, carefully, cautiously, profoundly, with perfect honesty and nicely adjusted judgment--until they believed that without doubt or question they had found the Truth. THAT WAS THE END OF THE SEARCH. The man spent the rest of his life hunting up shingles wherewith to protect his Truth from the weather. If he was seeking after political Truth he found it in one or another of the hundred political gospels which govern men in the earth; if he was seeking after the Only True Religion he found it in one or another of the three thousand that are on the market. In any case, when he found the Truth HE SOUGHT NO FURTHER; but from that day forth, with his soldering-iron in one hand and his bludgeon in the other he tinkered its leaks and reasoned with objectors."

Perhaps one shouldn't worry so much about what is "the truth" and just enjoy the search. Wink
 
Electra phil
 
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 05:29 am
@chad3006,
chad3006 wrote:
I won't pretend to be able to answer this, but I've spent some time pondering similar questions.

It could very well be that the search for truth is never ending, so in a certain way, you never find it. Here are some examples.

If it is said that the sun rises in the East and sets in the West, it is a truth. One only needs to observe sunrise and sunset to confirm it. But to an observer from space (expanded perspective), the Earth revolves and orbits the sun. Both are truths based on perspective. I can't, with complete certainty, say the second example is "the" truth, it's just the best one for my present perspective.

A dream of being chased by a flying spaghetti monster, will seem real if one is completely asleep--heart rate may increase--one might wake up in a cold sweat. But, in that in-between state of sleep, the dream will not seem real. So, greater consciousness reveals a new reality. A teenager may worry about what brand of shoes he or she is wearing because that's the level of consciousness this teenager is experiencing. It's reality for him or her, but many of us outgrow that level of consciousness. My reality is relative to my level of consciousness at this time, it may be different tomorrow.

Mark Twain said in What is Man? this: "But I have seen several entirely sincere people who THOUGHT they were (permanent) Seekers after Truth. They sought diligently, persistently, carefully, cautiously, profoundly, with perfect honesty and nicely adjusted judgment--until they believed that without doubt or question they had found the Truth. THAT WAS THE END OF THE SEARCH. The man spent the rest of his life hunting up shingles wherewith to protect his Truth from the weather. If he was seeking after political Truth he found it in one or another of the hundred political gospels which govern men in the earth; if he was seeking after the Only True Religion he found it in one or another of the three thousand that are on the market. In any case, when he found the Truth HE SOUGHT NO FURTHER; but from that day forth, with his soldering-iron in one hand and his bludgeon in the other he tinkered its leaks and reasoned with objectors."

Perhaps one shouldn't worry so much about what is "the truth" and just enjoy the search. Wink




http://img.allpoetry.com/images//custom/wbiro/spaghetti_monster_michaelangelo2_700.jpg
 
Electra phil
 
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 05:39 am
@Electra phil,
Truth


We have noticed that you pretend to value truth on this planet. Some spend a lifetime seeking it. Your legal systems demand it, and you can be sued if your business doesn't practice it. Your philosophers define it, your scientists measure it, your religions exalt it, and you all fight over it. Meanwhile, all you are doing is paying global lip service to it. There is an excellent reason for this: You have no idea what truth really is.

How the obvious escaped you is a tedious story. The abridged version of it amounts to this: You embraced fear. After that unholy act, it has been downhill ever since. Fear is the first lie, the lie that tells you that you are separated from the whole. Once it has been embraced, you are incapable of ever telling the truth under any circumstances without blowing the game.

Truth, by its nature, is the light. Fear cannot, by its nature, be in the light without dying. It becomes a simple matter of self interest. Fear has owned this planet, its people, and their systems for a long time. It does not wish to give up the property it has acquired because it is a parasitic life form that cannot live separated from your life forces.

The truth is, you are the truth. It is not external to you, as you have been led to believe. For that reason, it is ludicrous to set out on a spiritual journey in search of it. It is likewise ridiculous to punish those who do not practice it when almost nobody on this planet does. As for philosophizing over it, how can you when you wouldn't recognize it if it ran over you in the street? Meanwhile, measuring it is done in your attempt to dominate it, leading you further into the lie that it lives outside of you like an enemy that must be controlled. To exalt it is also to see it as separate. And fighting over it is so absurd as to not deserve our comment at all.

The totality of your clinically insane behavior surrounding truth has been cleverly manipulated by fear in its attempt to keep your eyes off the truth. In this manner, fear was able to continue uninterrupted and undetected in its process of eating you alive. But don't worry -- there is a cure. All you need do is awaken to the fact that you are the truth. As the light comes on, the parasite will die, leaving you joyously able to reclaim command.


Reality


Reality is a difficult word to define because there really isn't any such thing. What we mean by that is that there is no single reality, here or anywhere else. There are as many different realities on this planet as there are people alive to create them all. And what passes for global reality is merely a group consensus on a few minor points. From there on out, it's every man or woman for him or herself.

The reality that you live is nothing more than an audiovisual demonstration of where your attention is. The universe presumes your attention is on what you want and graciously provides you with more of the same. If this dynamic were understood, you would never do anything so foolish as declare a war on drugs -- unless, of course, your objective were to create more of them. There is no better way to increase drug traffic than to have everyone's attention focused on it. The same principle applies to increasing everything you think you oppose, and it is also the reason a war cannot be won. If you were serious about stopping drugs, the best course would be to stop being fascinated with them via your perceived opposition. Become fascinated with freedom instead, and your addictions will disappear naturally to satisfy your new preoccupation.

Because you have yet to understand your power of creation and who you really are, you perpetually put your attention on denial instead of affirmation. This results in the universe serving up an extra helping of what you thought you didn't want. Although a number of you practice the art of affirmation as a tool for changing your realities, you can affirm until you are blue in the face and they may fail. Unless your attention and your identity have also been altered to accomodate what you affirm, the universe has no option but to fulfill your real, though hidden, attention's desires. Until you understand the role that your attention and sense of identity play in your creation, your affirmation track record will remain a perplexing hit-and-miss affair.

It is time to use your powers wisely and create realities that are worthy of who you are. You can do this by changing what you communicate to be real to the universe through your focus, and the identity you project by way of that identity's behavior. If you do not make this fundamental shift, you will continue to transmit the same old tired requests to a universe that will dispassionately and lovingly respond with the same old tired and often toxic answers.

ET 101 The Cosmic Instruction Manual for Planetary Evolution
 
Refus
 
Reply Fri 22 Dec, 2006 10:13 am
@pilgrimshost,
Truth is ungripeable without the proper tools. Like a clock in one of those machines --pulling out another quarter--

But if you have the understanding tools, then you can be taught the current circumstances through evidence
--opens machine with key--

And thereby be convinced.
--that clock sure looks fine on my arm--

So what he really need is proof. So maybe he should look on this thread:
http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/philosophy-mind/225-defining-self.html And i cannot express enough that i call the identity of mass for Im
 
pilgrimshost
 
Reply Mon 29 Jan, 2007 11:08 pm
@Refus,
Thank you to everyone that posted a response to this thread, for some reason I began to feel like a cry in the wilderness, and now, for some reason it seems like I'm not alone in the wilderness, if you understand my meaning.Wink
 
Logos
 
Reply Mon 21 May, 2007 02:34 pm
@pilgrimshost,
In the 'Metaphysics' forum it is asked, "what is truth?". How about ...WHAT IS THE NATURE OF REALITY AS REGARDS TO ONE'S EXISTENCE? One way to clarify this question would be to answer the question- "Do you think 'reality' exists outside of your existence, independant of one's awareness of it?".......
....................Logos
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 21 May, 2007 02:48 pm
@Logos,
Logos wrote:
In the 'Metaphysics' forum it is asked, "what is truth?". How about ...WHAT IS THE NATURE OF REALITY AS REGARDS TO ONE'S EXISTENCE? One way to clarify this question would be to answer the question- "Do you think 'reality' exists outside of your existence, independant of one's awareness of it?".......
....................Logos


Obviously. Science tells us that the earth antedated human being by at least 6 billion years. And I think my mother and father existed before I was born. Otherwise, I would find it hard to explain how I got here.
 
boagie
 
Reply Mon 21 May, 2007 03:09 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:
Obviously. Science tells us that the earth antedated human being by at least 6 billion years. And I think my mother and father existed before I was born. Otherwise, I would find it hard to explain how I got here.



Logos,kennethamy,

As far a ancestory goes,all living things have an equal evolutionary history,true, your form did not remain the same, but your essence did----life. A Little something from the Upanishads,"The Self In One Is The Self In All," somethings are not mean't to be taken literally,the meaning of this is indeed in its literal intent.

Just a thought, when you separate an organism from it's environment is it still the same thing?
 
Logos
 
Reply Mon 21 May, 2007 07:23 pm
@boagie,
kennethamy points out :"Obviously. Science tells us that the earth antedated human being by at least 6 billion years. And I think my mother and father existed before I was born. Otherwise, I would find it hard to explain how I got here."

Thank You for your reply.
We agree then that realilty, and therefore particular entities, exist independant of our awareness of it (them). If 'truth' ( the real qualites any entity possesses which define it as that entity, its nature ) is what we seek to discover,...than what is the best method to discover this truth? What tools best determine the 'truth'?
................................Logos
 
Logos
 
Reply Mon 21 May, 2007 07:35 pm
@Logos,
boagie comments: 'As far a ancestory goes,all living things have an equal evolutionary history,true, your form did not remain the same, but your essence did----life. A Little something from the Upanishads,"The Self In One Is The Self In All," somethings are not mean't to be taken literally,the meaning of this is indeed in its literal intent.'

Thanks for your reply.
Hmmm. All living things do share the essence of being alive, but here the definition itself of life states the ( shared ) condition. How would two beings, differing in form, such as an earthworm and a human, compare in this 'essence'? Both are alive, but within the parameters of being alive, how do they differ significantly? Does the difference contribute to discerning truth?
...................Logos
 
boagie
 
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 09:15 am
@Logos,
Logos,

Welcome,you are already making a difference--great stuff!

They are both adapted to their environments differently,due to their given niches.Discerning the truth,that would be entirely dependent upon what an organism's concerns were.Ultimate truth may mean the temperature and moisture of the soil which is my life,or the desire and need for a make believe father figure watching over me while I play.As I have discussed elsewhere,all meaning is with the subject,no matter what form said subject takes,how is one subjects relation to the world a lesser experience than that of another,a least how could one possiably evaluate such a relation other than from the bias of ones own kind.
 
Logos
 
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 06:43 pm
@boagie,
Thanks for your thoughts boagie-


I think we have taken an interesting tangent here.

You mentioned that 'meaning' is all with the subject. Sounds reasonable. However, here we are not discussing meaning, but rather if reality has a factual nature or not (objective vs. subjective existence). The implications of each are tremendous as a starting point in approaching 'truth'.

My truck is sitting in front of my house right now. You probably did not know this until I told you, but nevertheless it is 'true' that there it sits. The earthworm under the truck ( or ground ) it is true doesn't have a concept of 'truck', this is meaningless to it, but there it sits nevertheless.


Is this true?
.........Logos
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 22 May, 2007 07:46 pm
@boagie,
boagie wrote:
Logos,kennethamy,

As far a ancestory goes,all living things have an equal evolutionary history,true, your form did not remain the same, but your essence did----life. A Little something from the Upanishads,"The Self In One Is The Self In All," somethings are not mean't to be taken literally,the meaning of this is indeed in its literal intent.

Just a thought, when you separate an organism from it's environment is it still the same thing?


The fact remains that my mother and father are (necessarily) older that I am; and their parents (necessarily) older than they were. No use denying facts do as to maintain a theory. Not even in philosophy does everything go.
 
boagie
 
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 07:48 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:
The fact remains that my mother and father are (necessarily) older that I am; and their parents (necessarily) older than they were. No use denying facts do as to maintain a theory. Not even in philosophy does everything go.
Smile

I am unsure of what you think you are understanding,could you rephrase your statement above,to express what kind of violation you believe has occured? My statement simply indicates the all living creatures of the present, have an equally long evolutionary history-----if you doubt this, check it out with a biologist friend.My parents were older than me too--how about that! Very Happy





Nietzsche once said that faith means not wanting to know. http://www.counterorder.com/sml/poweroffaith_sml.jpgFaith is 'don't let those pesky facts get in the way of our political plan or our mystically ordained path to heaven'; faith is 'do what I tell you because I said so'. All things that can't be proved or disproved need faith, utopia needs faith, idealism needs faith, spiritual salvation needs faith.
 
boagie
 
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 08:43 am
@Logos,
Logos,Smile

You present some delightful questions! First I think we should establish the difference between what is called apparent reality from that of ultimate reality.Apparent reality is dependent upon the consiousness which finds it apparent--real.We are surrounded, bomdarded with stimulus of every description,our sensory apparatus picks this up,relays it to the understanding for processing and the product is apparent reality.Ultimate reality would be unprocessed wave frequencies,photons,energies of different kinds,in other words,there would be nothing.

No matter how you consider it,if you substract all consciousness,animal or vegetable from the equation you have nothing.Reality does not exist in the absence of an obsever.Ultimate reality would be nothing-- energy---and energy doesn't matter------just kidding!! The truck is there because you know it is there,you experience that packet of energy as your truck,if it was anything to the worm,it would not be a truck,but either way, both perceptions are consciousness dependent.It all falls back to a basic principle which was established sometime ago,"Subject and Object stand or fall together,remove either individually and there is nothing.Subject assumes object as the key assume its lock or the other way around.



Honk if you love Jesus!! :p
 
Logos
 
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 01:43 pm
@boagie,
boagie: Thanks for your reply and stimulating thoughts. I am having trouble understanding your postion as stated. :confused: Please clarify the following concerns:

1) "Reality does not exist in the absence of an observer."
-Is this to say that I did not exist ( as a particular in reality ) until you (the observer) became aware of me?

2) "The truck is there because you know it is there,you experience that packet of energy as your truck,if it was anything to the worm,it would not be a truck,but either way, both perceptions are consciousness dependent".

- I agree with you that the perception of a given object ( the information obtained is via the sense organs and thus a different species would sense the same object with different sense organs ( or in a differing quality of a given analogous organ ). The fact that the worm sees it as a worm sees it, I see it as a 1994 Mazda and a physicist can see it on a sub-atomic level does not invalidate the reality of this particular existing in reality ( ultimate or otherwise ). Each is perceiving the object by means of its effects on his consciousness. The object is there and is detected by the sense organs. The 'bombardment' of stimuli picked up by the senses of the object can be summed up, organized, observed and determined as 'real' properties designating a given object as a particular. Science is a good example of the practice of this. The object exists whether one is aware of it or not. I purchased the truck in 2005. Though I had no awareness of it prior to this date, it existed nevertheless since its manufacture date.

3) "Ultimate reality would be unprocessed wave frequencies,photons,energies of different kinds,in other words,there would be nothing".
-These things ( frequencies, photons, energies ) are qualities of the given particular at a sub-atomic level. They are something, and must be organized in such a manner to remain consistent with the perception of the object in its macro-state. Otherwise the science of Chemistry and Physics would be arbitrary. Each compliments the other ( micro perspective vs. macro ) in describing the object as it is.

Lastly, if your argument is based on 'Apparent Reality' ( it can't be Absolute Reality based because that is unprocessed/nothing ) than how valid can it be? By its own definition it is subjective and tenuous, not real, but only apparent. Is it only true if it is observed to be true?

 
boagie
 
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 03:03 pm
@Logos,
Logos wrote:
boagie: Thanks for your reply and stimulating thoughts. I am having trouble understanding your postion as stated. :confused: Please clarify the following concerns:


1) "Reality does not exist in the absence of an observer."
-Is this to say that I did not exist ( as a particular in reality ) until you (the observer) became aware of me?

Hello Logos,Smile

Existences are things/objects which are percecived in space,unpreceived,there is nothing,existences depend on the perception of consciousness.In other words an objects reality is not in simply what it provides in the way of stimulus but in the way that stimulus effects consciousness and then how that consciousness processes said effect.So,without me logos you cease to exist-----we can workout a payment plan----------just kidding!!There are all kinds of consciousnesses aware of your existence,even your own awarness of your body as an object,it is a hard and fast rule, no consciouness/subject,no object,no reality,no world.

2) "The truck is there because you know it is there,you experience that packet of energy as your truck,if it was anything to the worm,it would not be a truck,but either way, both perceptions are consciousness dependent".

- I agree with you that the perception of a given object ( the information obtained is via the sense organs and thus a different species would sense the same object with different sense organs ( or in a differing quality of a given analogous organ ). The fact that the worm sees it as a worm sees it, I see it as a 1994 Mazda and a physicist can see it on a sub-atomic level does not invalidate the reality of this particular existing in reality ( ultimate or otherwise ). Each is perceiving the object by means of its effects on his consciousness. The object is there and is detected by the sense organs. The 'bombardment' of stimuli picked up by the senses of the object can be summed up, organized, observed and determined as 'real' properties designating a given object as a particular. Science is a good example of the practice of this. The object exists whether one is aware of it or not. I purchased the truck in 2005. Though I had no awareness of it prior to this date, it existed nevertheless since its manufacture date.

Try and get your money back---the truck isn't there!!!-----you've been had lad!!---just kidding!! You have nicely described the different states or conditions of consciousness of the verious people and organisms involved,which would allow them to see things somewhat differently.You don't seem to understand the premise is to remove all forms of consciousness,and in the said absence of all forms of consciousness there is nothing.There is not a physicist in the world that can prove the existence of apparent reality,for apparently reality is as much subject as object,perhaps more.That why Schopenhaur's statement,"Subject and Object stand or fall together still warrants respect.



3) "Ultimate reality would be unprocessed wave frequencies,photons,energies of different kinds,in other words,there would be nothing".
-These things ( frequencies, photons, energies ) are qualities of the given particular at a sub-atomic level. They are something, and must be organized in such a manner to remain consistent with the perception of the object in its macro-state. Otherwise the science of Chemistry and Physics would be arbitrary. Each compliments the other ( micro perspective vs. macro ) in describing the object as it is.

All the above is the function of consciousness,in its absence, there is nothing.




Lastly, if your argument is based on 'Apparent Reality' ( it can't be Absolute Reality based because that is unprocessed/nothing ) than how valid can it be? By its own definition it is subjective and tenuous, not real, but only apparent. Is it only true if it is observed to be true?

Absolute reality is not in need of consciousness, it is that unprocessed energy.To apparent reality consciouness is elemental,for it is in part,that said reality.There is no objective reality,at least not one we precieve,the only reality we have is subjective,apparent and an expression of what we are as creatures.






Honk if you love Jesus!! :p
 
Logos
 
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 04:51 pm
@boagie,
boagie:

I understand. ........Logos
 
boagie
 
Reply Wed 23 May, 2007 05:33 pm
@Logos,
Logos wrote:
boagie:

I understand. ........Logos


Logos,The divine word of God; the second person in the Trinity (incarnate in Jesus)

Perhaps it is my turn not to understand-----logos. You understand this relation between subject and object through logos?
 
 

 
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