Is the study of ethics a joke?

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deepthot
 
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 01:39 am
@reasoning logic,
I think everyone here would benefit by reading Jeremy Rifkin, THE EMPATHIC CIVILIZATION (NY: Tarcher/Penguin, 2009).

Also, I detect much conflation in this thread of mores with morality. They are two different and distinct concepts. What people do or believe in the various earthly cultures are the mores. The principles derived by sound logical reasoning from a good theory of Ethics - from a Model of models - are guides to morality. The two concepts ought not to be confused.
By "model" I mean the exhibition of the bare structure of some phenomena, or of some noumena.

Yes, valuation is a personal activity; but "value" is a concept. And just as philosophers analyze the concepts "medicine" or "music," they may,analyze the concept "value." (As you know, the Theory of Value is known as Axiology.) One person who has given the last part of his life to this project is Dr. Robert S. Hartman. His magnum opus was entitled THE STRUCTURE OF VALUE. It is available via inter-library loan from any good university library. Anyone interested can read a paper of his on this topic here: The following article appeared in The Journal of Human Religion, Vol

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TranscendHumanit
 
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 03:49 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic;154686 wrote:
Yes I do think that you hit the nail on the head so to speak. We need to find out how to overcome this problem. I believe that the main factor is called [confirmation bias].:detective: We need to be aware of this and it needs to be discussed and taught.Smile


Can not see how this is 'problem' for ethics. If I am correct, and morality is all false, I lose nothing. Unless there is reason for me to want to do something (unless thing is motivating me) then is irrelevant for my life. Only important thing is self.
 
deepthot
 
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 07:19 pm
@Diogenes phil,
Diogenes;154660 wrote:
... no matter what arguments you ... receive, your opinion will most likely not change.


As a result of reading over the booklet A Unified Theory of Ethics, a link to which you will find below, it was the reader's understanding that I would like to see change, not his opinion. What understanding? One may by studying it and also ETHICS: A College Course (which one may google, if not by the title then by the author's name), come to see new relationships, namely, that if you want to optimize the value in life there are certain guidelines to follow ... and certain pursuits to avoid - such as going to war, or seeking revenge, or consciously dissing someone. The guidelines that permit getting more value out of life are the normative prescriptions suggested by the coherent theory presented in the essay when one clicks on the link.

The normative ethics there follows logically from the meta-ethics, which is the formal value theory, and thus many think it succeeds in presenting a reasonable case ...for those who are able to clearly reason ..the intelligent ones that Hexhammer was talking about. Let's have them at least get intellectually stronger by understanding their Ethics. Does that include any particular individual here? The answer to that is up to you.

No one can force anyone to be physically healthy; and no one can coerce anyone to be morally healthy. But an understanding of the relevant facts and relations sure helps!

The choice is up to you.
 
reasoning logic
 
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 04:57 pm
@deepthot,
This is someone new to me, Is anyone familiar with this person? I think that he may be a republican, What I am amazed at is that a republican would be able to shine a light on ethics as I think he can.:detective:
YouTube - A MUST SEE Interview by Noam Chomsky
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 05:01 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic;147250 wrote:
Is it a joke to study ethics?


No, jokes are funny.
 
BrianH phil
 
Reply Wed 12 May, 2010 08:55 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic;147250 wrote:
As the title reads, Is it a joke to study ethics? if so please explain why. be honest even if you could give a $hit less.:poke-eye:


Ethics is a study i find absolutely useless. I'm not disagreeing or arguing with anyone on the forum. I am simpy answering the question as it is asked to be answered. Ethics seems to keep humans in a constant state of vigilance over self action. It is a type of control that restrains people from doing what they want. An example i seem to find are the Asian students that attend my school and how they seem to be very respectful to one another but it is to the point where something wrong is said and the group finds offense, going into a strange silence. According to the group, the remark was unethical and insulting to some extent. If opinionating and having control over your own actions is bad then why would we have rationality and wills? It is pointelss to me. If i want to cut up a cat in anatomy to study its organs then i'll do it. Bear Gryles doesn't seem to have a problem doing it on national television. He understands that he is an independent existence separate from the rest of humanity. If he can do it alone in the wild, why can't we do it in front of people. It seems ridiculous and seems to simply keep us in measure.
 
1CellOfMany
 
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 10:52 am
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic;162548 wrote:
This is someone new to me, Is anyone familiar with this person? I think that he may be a republican, What I am amazed at is that a republican would be able to shine a light on ethics as I think he can.:detective:


Noam Chomsky has been writing and publishing philosophy since the 1950's. Far from being a "Republican", he is believed by some to be an anarchist! I would not attempt to put him into any simple catagory, however. I agree with some of what he has to say and I disagree with some, but he is definitely a brillaint philosopher.
chomsky.info : The Noam Chomsky Website

---------- Post added 05-14-2010 at 01:08 PM ----------

BrianH;163707 wrote:
Ethics is a study i find absolutely useless. I'm not disagreeing or arguing with anyone on the forum. I am simpy answering the question as it is asked to be answered. Ethics seems to keep humans in a constant state of vigilance over self action. It is a type of control that restrains people from doing what they want. An example i seem to find are the Asian students that attend my school and how they seem to be very respectful to one another but it is to the point where something wrong is said and the group finds offense, going into a strange silence. According to the group, the remark was unethical and insulting to some extent. If opinionating and having control over your own actions is bad then why would we have rationality and wills? It is pointelss to me. If i want to cut up a cat in anatomy to study its organs then i'll do it. Bear Gryles doesn't seem to have a problem doing it on national television. He understands that he is an independent existence separate from the rest of humanity. If he can do it alone in the wild, why can't we do it in front of people. It seems ridiculous and seems to simply keep us in measure.

Brian, the examples that you give seem to me to be good reasons FOR studying ethics! The behavior that you observe in your Asian comrades is a sample of moral values learned through culture. In other words, most people follow the code of right and wrong that they grew up with. Studying ethics helps one develop a more thoughtful aproach to deciding what is right or wrong. Instead of just following the opinions of others, ethics (like all branches of philosophy) give one a basis for developing one's own opinion. Even if one bases their moral code on the teachings of their religion, the study of ethics can help one to discern the difference between what a "religious leader" says is right, and what is actually right based on scripture.

I sense that you would, perhaps, prefer not to make any distinction at all between "right and wrong". If you think about it, though, you will see that some sense of right and wrong, of how one should behave, is important to the functioning of human society. If most people just did what they felt like doing, then no one could trust other people enough to have a society.
 
Jackofalltrades phil
 
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 12:30 pm
@reasoning logic,
Chomsky is the conscience of America. It is people like him that has given American intellectualism some amount of respect. He is notorious for his anti-establishment campaigns, some consider him a left of centre conservationist, some call him a commie, a radical thinker, linguist by profession, and one hell of a political thinker.

He is definitely not a republican, he may not have even voted for Obama. He has his own philosophy.
 
Jackofalltrades phil
 
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 11:50 pm
@BrianH phil,
BrianH;163707 wrote:
Ethics is a study i find absolutely useless. I'm not disagreeing or arguing with anyone on the forum. I am simpy answering the question as it is asked to be answered. Ethics seems to keep humans in a constant state of vigilance over self action. It is a type of control that restrains people from doing what they want. An example i seem to find are the Asian students that attend my school and how they seem to be very respectful to one another but it is to the point where something wrong is said and the group finds offense, going into a strange silence. According to the group, the remark was unethical and insulting to some extent. If opinionating and having control over your own actions is bad then why would we have rationality and wills? It is pointelss to me. If i want to cut up a cat in anatomy to study its organs then i'll do it. Bear Gryles doesn't seem to have a problem doing it on national television. He understands that he is an independent existence separate from the rest of humanity. If he can do it alone in the wild, why can't we do it in front of people. It seems ridiculous and seems to simply keep us in measure.


A study of Ethics cannot be absolutely useless. All religions are based on the platform called Ethics. Religions are not useless. And therefore, Ethics by itslef cannot be useless.

There are many who cut or kill animals to survive. The nation-state's does it. Multi-nationals like Macdonalds, KFCs, does it. Universities, Laboratories, and academics does it. Tribesmen, and boys like Bear Gryles does it. These examples should not be made into a case against Ethics. The application of Ethics is more oriented towards the assumed goal of a society as a whole, and moreless towards a particular individual.

Civilisations and religions are the result of an evolving ethical man.
 
BrianH phil
 
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 10:11 am
@1CellOfMany,
1CellOfMany;164295 wrote:
Noam Chomsky has been writing and publishing philosophy since the 1950's. Far from being a "Republican", he is believed by some to be an anarchist! I would not attempt to put him into any simple catagory, however. I agree with some of what he has to say and I disagree with some, but he is definitely a brillaint philosopher.
chomsky.info : The Noam Chomsky Website

---------- Post added 05-14-2010 at 01:08 PM ----------


Brian, the examples that you give seem to me to be good reasons FOR studying ethics! The behavior that you observe in your Asian comrades is a sample of moral values learned through culture. In other words, most people follow the code of right and wrong that they grew up with. Studying ethics helps one develop a more thoughtful aproach to deciding what is right or wrong. Instead of just following the opinions of others, ethics (like all branches of philosophy) give one a basis for developing one's own opinion. Even if one bases their moral code on the teachings of their religion, the study of ethics can help one to discern the difference between what a "religious leader" says is right, and what is actually right based on scripture.

I sense that you would, perhaps, prefer not to make any distinction at all between "right and wrong". If you think about it, though, you will see that some sense of right and wrong, of how one should behave, is important to the functioning of human society. If most people just did what they felt like doing, then no one could trust other people enough to have a society.


I have a problem with ethics because it is not as you say. You don't formulate your own opinion. Who dictates what's right or wrong in religion? It is not them. Likewise, society dictates what's right or wrong. The only freedom they have is the freedom of deciding upon two choices that have been presented to them, right or wrong. Right or wrong is simply the standards of a society and not an individual's standards. Being gay is not wrong yet religion would argue it is. That is not a formulated opinion, that is an adopted opinion. So no one should should be gay. Ethics does not decide what is right or wrong, it is simply the categorizing of right or wrong.

---------- Post added 05-15-2010 at 09:14 AM ----------

Jackofalltrades;164482 wrote:
A study of Ethics cannot be absolutely useless. All religions are based on the platform called Ethics. Religions are not useless. And therefore, Ethics by itslef cannot be useless.

There are many who cut or kill animals to survive. The nation-state's does it. Multi-nationals like Macdonalds, KFCs, does it. Universities, Laboratories, and academics does it. Tribesmen, and boys like Bear Gryles does it. These examples should not be made into a case against Ethics. The application of Ethics is more oriented towards the assumed goal of a society as a whole, and moreless towards a particular individual.

Civilisations and religions are the result of an evolving ethical man.


That is an opinion, as mine is my own. Religions to me are not as important as you say they are. I'm not trying to offend. These are my formulated opinions. I don't find ethics in coerced conversions or religions wars.
 
mark noble
 
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 10:44 am
@BrianH phil,
Hi All,

Ethics are the backbone to a just and proper mindset. They are vital to the whole and crucial to us all.

The study of, may appear insignificant -but, it leads us to ourselves - A destination, ALL aspire to , and few complete.

Thank you all, and fare well.

Mark...
 
Jackofalltrades phil
 
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 11:57 am
@BrianH phil,
BrianH;164606 wrote:
Ethics does not decide what is right or wrong, it is simply the categorizing of right or wrong.
---------- Post added 05-15-2010 at 09:14 AM ----------



That is an opinion, as mine is my own. Religions to me are not as important as you say they are. I'm not trying to offend. These are my formulated opinions. I don't find ethics in coerced conversions or religions wars.


Well, mine were, as obviously it is ..... my considered opinion. You may do well to consider, how it does not matter whether religion is of any importance to you or not. For that matter to me too. Religion is not important for me too. But our personal likes and dislikes cannot take away from the fact that to a whole lot of humanity it is important. Thats a fact and not an opinion.

Forget the above, and let us retrace the issue from an interesting 'opinion' you gave in response to another poster. Ethics is indeed all about right and wrong. Applied ethics is what concerns society. Society lays down the rules of behaviour or the norms of engagement.

If society feels that gay marriages cannot be encouraged, than religion and civil laws reflect the same. I personally may not see anything drastically wrong for gay couples to get married, privately, but even then, i feel the gays should respect the societies laws, or else suffer consequences. Doesn't ethics allow such tolerence.
 
BrianH phil
 
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 12:23 pm
@Jackofalltrades phil,
Jackofalltrades;164647 wrote:
Well, mine were, as obviously it is ..... my considered opinion. You may do well to consider, how it does not matter whether religion is of any importance to you or not. For that matter to me too. Religion is not important for me too. But our personal likes and dislikes cannot take away from the fact that to a whole lot of humanity it is important. Thats a fact and not an opinion.

Forget the above, and let us retrace the issue from an interesting 'opinion' you gave in response to another poster. Ethics is indeed all about right and wrong. Applied ethics is what concerns society. Society lays down the rules of behaviour or the norms of engagement.

If society feels that gay marriages cannot be encouraged, than religion and civil laws reflect the same. I personally may not see anything drastically wrong for gay couples to get married, privately, but even then, i feel the gays should respect the societies laws, or else suffer consequences. Doesn't ethics allow such tolerence.


religion sets down the foundation for society and civil law, it is not the other way around. Society is controlled by higher manipulative ideals. There are places in the world right now that are in civil disobedience due to religious differences controling society. The moral and ethical nature of religion only leads to argument and differences that to some are eithical and to others are not. Gays don't follow societies' laws. These laws are only imposed on society by religious and human perpesctives. Therfore, any human abiding by an unfair and immoral law is only accepting the perspective of another human with great influence of society or an ideal that manipulates mentalities of individuals. No, i don't agree that gays should listen to, not societies', but religions' laws and human's perspectives, influenced by religion. The study of ethics is just the study of standards and aceptance of of others' rationality over an indvidual's. they tell you what's right in you and what's wrong, regardless of whether it's true or not.
 
mark noble
 
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 01:03 pm
@BrianH phil,
Hi Both,

Society (whichever) is born on the backbone of its predecessors, and the decisions that affected them and their predecessors. It is an ever-evolving, ever-changing format, that is tried and tested, but never perfected. Nor is it perfectable.

Every deitic religin on earth has set principles, both ambiguous and exploitable to the fringe-followers thereof.
Good and evil - mere points of view.
We only determine the right from the wrong because we are shown the results and consequences of our actions by our ancients.
Studying ethics? pointless! living them? crucial.

I'm neither jew nor christian, but I found the book of Proverbs, ESSENTIAL to my ethical developement. You needn't attribute the God therein - To the wisdom therein.

Thank you, and journey to the max.

Mark...
 
1CellOfMany
 
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 09:27 pm
@BrianH phil,
BrianH;164653 wrote:
The study of ethics is just the study of standards and aceptance of of others' rationality over an indvidual's. they tell you what's right in you and what's wrong, regardless of whether it's true or not.

There are several branches of ethics: The one which you seem to be speaking of is "descriptive" ethics. In this branch, you simply look at what this culture or that religion, or those fraternities consider to be right or wrong behavior. You are feeling the oppression of the moral judgments that certain segments of society make regarding your behavior and that of others. When you say:
Quote:
Who dictates what's right or wrong in religion? It is not them. Likewise, society dictates what's right or wrong. The only freedom they have is the freedom of deciding upon two choices that have been presented to them, right or wrong. Right or wrong is simply the standards of a society and not an individual's standards. Being gay is not wrong yet religion would argue it is. That is not a formulated opinion, that is an adopted opinion. So no one should should be gay. Ethics does not decide what is right or wrong, it is simply the categorizing of right or wrong.
,you are responding to someone else's established ethical system. When I, and most philosophers, talk about "studying ethics", we are talking about studying ideas for how to determine whether something is right or wrong. That is the branch called "normative" ethics and, possibly, "meta-ethics".
Ethics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You actually show some strong opinions about right and wrong when you say, "Being gay is not wrong yet religion would argue it is." The study of ethics would arm you with some powerful arguments to back up your opinions. It could also help you to develop a basis for making important decisions.
 
BrianH phil
 
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 11:09 pm
@1CellOfMany,
1CellOfMany;164795 wrote:
There are several branches of ethics: The one which you seem to be speaking of is "descriptive" ethics. In this branch, you simply look at what this culture or that religion, or those fraternities consider to be right or wrong behavior. You are feeling the oppression of the moral judgments that certain segments of society make regarding your behavior and that of others. When you say:
,you are responding to someone else's established ethical system. When I, and most philosophers, talk about "studying ethics", we are talking about studying ideas for how to determine whether something is right or wrong. That is the branch called "normative" ethics and, possibly, "meta-ethics".
Ethics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You actually show some strong opinions about right and wrong when you say, "Being gay is not wrong yet religion would argue it is." The study of ethics would arm you with some powerful arguments to back up your opinions. It could also help you to develop a basis for making important decisions.


thank you for the insight. I'm not out of high school yet and want to study philosphy but for now, i am very inexperienced when it comes to philosophical colloquy and discourse. I'll keep all of this in mind next time i argue about ethics.
 
Ergo phil
 
Reply Tue 18 May, 2010 11:24 am
@reasoning logic,
A philosopher walks into a bar:

Philosopher: I'll have an Ethical Margarita please.

Bartender: Sorry horse, we don't mix that drink here.

Philosopher [Gets up from his stool to leave and just before he exits, yells out]: You got something against long faces?!
 
deepthot
 
Reply Tue 18 May, 2010 06:59 pm
@Ergo phil,
Ergo;165802 wrote:
A philosopher walks into a bar: [P]hilosopher [Gets up from his stool to leave and just before he exits, yells out]: You got something against long faces?!


Hi, Ergo

Some of us ethicists smile a lot, because we are happy, and have a deep serenity and contentment.

Why? Because we see it all working out eventually. We discover that we are not alone, that there are thousands and thousands of like-minded people who share our value, who have the same priorities.


To all Forum members:
Check out the new essay, a link to which is below. Let us know your impressions of it. If you can find the time to look it over please give us a constructive critique of it.
 
reasoning logic
 
Reply Tue 18 May, 2010 07:23 pm
@deepthot,
deepthot;165911 wrote:
Hi, Ergo

Some of us ethicists smile a lot, because we are happy, and have a deep serenity and contentment.

Why? Because we see it all working out eventually. We discover that we are not alone, that there are thousands and thousands of like-minded people who share our value, who have the same priorities.


To all Forum members:
Check out the new essay, a link to which is below. Let us know your impressions of it. If you can find the time to look it over please give us a constructive critique of it.



I only had a few minutes before bed time, but I read your new work for ten minutes. I found your work on value dimensions to make sence to me.

I will need to study it all longer to get a better understanding.:a-ok:
 
 

 
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