Is the study of ethics a joke?

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Yogi DMT
 
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 05:15 pm
@reasoning logic,
Mores are exactly what i was talking about, i didn't know there was a word for what i was trying to say. A society's more changes with culture and with time while fundamental ethics will never change. This is the distinction i was trying to make before. While the study of either deserves merit, i believe a society's mores do not.
 
1CellOfMany
 
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 06:57 pm
@deepthot,
deepthot;147763 wrote:
Let us make a distinction between two concepts "mores" and "moral principles as derived from a coherent theory of ethics."

The former are what you were speaking about: a society's mores.

In contrast, the latter - moral principles - are what we deduce from the models of a good system, say from the Unified Theory. Of course this theory needs vastly-more development before it can account for more of the many data of ethics.

{Eventually the internal structure of I-value (of Intrinsic valuation) will be spelled out by an advanced formal system of Relevance Logic, Relevance Logic (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy) or by some appropriate branch of math. When applied to Ethics it will generate many useful theorems. These will serve as hypotheses to be tested empirically. Discovering that logic is a job that Philosophy professors are working on now. They can use your help, readers, if you know math or logic. Just send me a private message, and I'll put you in touch with them.}

This idea of ethical theorems based in equations of value is a very interesting and scientific approach to determining moral choices. I would imagine that for common, everyday moral choices, a set of rules would be devised which would probably be very like what are taught to children in this country. These would be taught and possibly established through some institute of legislation and law enforcement. The study of different practices of child-raising and education would need to be a source of knowledge for such a moral science, as children are valued Intrinsically and will become the adults of the future, who will want to continue and improve the application of scientific ethics to their lives. (For more unusual moral situations, established equations of moral good would be applied.)

Recourse to knowledge from the social sciences might help determine the most ethical responses to infractions of said rules. For example, there might be a general rule against stealing. If someone steals from you, what is the best thing to do based on this science of morality? If an adult person steals for "fun and profit" (as opposed to for "meeting some necessity") what is the best course of action for each person or institution involved? The answers to these questions could, theoretically, be determined, taught, and instituted in a rational society.

This thread raises the question, though, of how one would get from where we are now to a society in which people are willing to apply such a science of morality. What would motivate them? How could they (we) be convinced that it is in their own best interest to behave ethically? How can adults who, as children, were beaten for misbehavior, be convinced to raise their own children in a more compassionate and ethical manner? If several schools of ethics arise and compete for the hearts and minds of the populace, how would they be sorted out?

I think that the widespread implementation of an ethical system that was supported by scientific research could truly elevate human society to a new level. The tragedies of war, famine, poverty, pollution, destruction of other species, etc. could be solved and the quality of life for all of humanity and for the planet as a whole could be greatly improved. But it would take widespread faith in such a system for it to be implemented. By faith, I mean the willingness to trust without reservation, to follow without hesitation, and to participate without rancor in the evolution of the precepts of the ethical system.

I have said before, and will say again here, that the foundations of such a system is already being built within the organization of the Baha'i Faith. For more about this, see my blog.
 
reasoning logic
 
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 07:21 pm
@1CellOfMany,
1CellOfMany;148009 wrote:
This idea of ethical theorems based in equations of value is a very interesting and scientific approach to determining moral choices. I would imagine that for common, everyday moral choices, a set of rules would be devised which would probably be very like what are taught to children in this country. These would be taught and possibly established through some institute of legislation and law enforcement. The study of different practices of child-raising and education would need to be a source of knowledge for such a moral science, as children are valued Intrinsically and will become the adults of the future, who will want to continue and improve the application of scientific ethics to their lives. (For more unusual moral situations, established equations of moral good would be applied.)

Recourse to knowledge from the social sciences might help determine the most ethical responses to infractions of said rules. For example, there might be a general rule against stealing. If someone steals from you, what is the best thing to do based on this science of morality? If an adult person steals for "fun and profit" (as opposed to for "meeting some necessity") what is the best course of action for each person or institution involved? The answers to these questions could, theoretically, be determined, taught, and instituted in a rational society.

This thread raises the question, though, of how one would get from where we are now to a society in which people are willing to apply such a science of morality. What would motivate them? How could they (we) be convinced that it is in their own best interest to behave ethically? How can adults who, as children, were beaten for misbehavior, be convinced to raise their own children in a more compassionate and ethical manner? If several schools of ethics arise and compete for the hearts and minds of the populace, how would they be sorted out?

I think that the widespread implementation of an ethical system that was supported by scientific research could truly elevate human society to a new level. The tragedies of war, famine, poverty, pollution, destruction of other species, etc. could be solved and the quality of life for all of humanity and for the planet as a whole could be greatly improved. But it would take widespread faith in such a system for it to be implemented. By faith, I mean the willingness to trust without reservation, to follow without hesitation, and to participate without rancor in the evolution of the precepts of the ethical system.

I have said before, and will say again here, that the foundations of such a system is already being built within the organization of the Baha'i Faith. For more about this, see my blog.



As I have said before you are very wise 1CellOfMany . You have much to offer in the field of ethics. I may need to pay a closer attention to the Baha'i Faith than what I have done so far.
Maybe I have looked at it as most other religions and thought that it did not have room for improvement. Could I be wrong? Does the Baha'i Faith have room for improvement? As I would think that the next paradigm shift that we move toward next will also need to be improved upon. as we may never get ethics perfect. Smile
 
north
 
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 07:53 pm
@reasoning logic,
the study of ethics is never a joke

it could be the difference of Humanity surviving in the big picture or not
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 11:59 am
@north,
north;148029 wrote:
the study of ethics is never a joke

it could be the difference of Humanity surviving in the big picture or not


When I grow up my ethics were purely Calvinistic. A Joke in real live.
 
deepthot
 
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 07:07 pm
@north,
north;148029 wrote:
the study of ethics is never a joke

it could be the difference of Humanity surviving in the big picture or not


You are so right, north, for all the reasons I gave earlier in this thread. As the world becomes more and more interconnected, as the planet becomes a global village, if we don't soon renounce war and really mean it, it will finish us off -- or send us back to an earlier stage, say, the Stone Age. Einstein foresaw this. He was very wise. We also need to give up dissing one another. We need to show respect. We are in a very delicate balance; our society has reached a stage of intricate complexity and strong interdependence. Climate Change extremes are paying us back for years of neglect. We must seek an Ethics of sustainability, and live it. Practice it. I am not saying we'll become extinct to the last individual, but advanced civilization as we know it will die if we don't soon shape up.

Starting a big push for a Green Energy economy is one way to shape up.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 07:26 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic;147250 wrote:
As the title reads, Is it a joke to study ethics? if so please explain why. be honest even if you could give a $hit less.:poke-eye:
Anyone with just an ounce of history knowledge (doesn't seem to be many in this thread), should know it's VERY importaint to study ethics, else we would still live in a brutal world, with physically violence, where dog eat dog, where might makes righ! ..etc.

In the western would, we have deliverd our selves from whipping people, beating prisoners, where prison police could do anything with these scum, stow prisoners into a tiny cell.

No longer do we have inhumanity where lords of the lands could beat anyone of his serfs at will, rape the women.

We have rules for warefare.

..I just don't see how ethics could be a joke in any way?
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 09:56 pm
@reasoning logic,
Is it not an ethical question, this inquiry as to the value of studying ethics?
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 03:10 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;148417 wrote:
Is it not an ethical question, this inquiry as to the value of studying ethics?
Yes? And didn't I just give ample examples of why it's so valuable?
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 04:00 am
@HexHammer,
Is the study of the Yester a Joke ?

Think not; he studies Jokes.

And Truth.

Valuable for Philophers so they don-t take themselves to serious. Rulers could chance their mind without loosing Face.

Problems arise when Yester want to be King/President or influencial in a stable position. Lost imdepency... IMO

Study all Ethics, not yust western construct. Much to learn & enjoy !

Pepijn Sweep
Moderate Student Magistery
 
hue-man
 
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 12:39 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic;147250 wrote:
As the title reads, Is it a joke to study ethics? if so please explain why. be honest even if you could give a $hit less.:poke-eye:


The study of ethics isn't a joke, but sometimes the students are.
 
Mister Carcer
 
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 04:00 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus;147286 wrote:
The only thing that would call the study of ethics a joke would be the mass society. But generally, that is too stupid to know what is good for it.

Mass society does a very fine job of studying ethics. Take any newspaper and read a few reports on any crime or scandal. You won't have to ask too many people about those reports to find some thoughtful responses on why the activities being reported on are/are not criminal or scandalous. They might not have the right tools for constructing a water tight argument for defending their views. Nevertheless, I believe that they do want to know what is right and good.
 
TranscendHumanit
 
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 07:06 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic;147250 wrote:
As the title reads, Is it a joke to study ethics? if so please explain why. be honest even if you could give a $hit less.:poke-eye:


I never understand what people mean when they talk about 'ethics' or 'morality'. I understand that people have tacit agreement and expectations from other people, and develop guideposts for they life. But I do not know why anyone think there is anything else to it. Value is something that is inside you, and is only 'part of the world' insofar as you are part of the world. Nobody have to do anything except what they want.

I think they half my time in philosophy class talking about ethics, make less sense than Plato.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 04:14 pm
@TranscendHumanit,
TranscendHumanit;149756 wrote:
I never understand what people mean when they talk about 'ethics' or 'morality'. I understand that people have tacit agreement and expectations from other people, and develop guideposts for they life. But I do not know why anyone think there is anything else to it. Value is something that is inside you, and is only 'part of the world' insofar as you are part of the world. Nobody have to do anything except what they want.

I think they half my time in philosophy class talking about ethics, make less sense than Plato.
The answer is simple, but tragic.

Most people are not intelligent ~80%, ~14% are intelligent, ~0.5% are very intelligent and ~0.0001 are extremely intelligent.

When most talk about ethics and morals, they often speak of it from a very selfish point of view, where it's the inner most selfish desires that are the values, often mixed with a bit of tyrrany.

Most think they can do a little good to some close friends, then act like an idiot towards others they don't care about, and still think of themselfs as "good".

If everybody only cares about themselfs, society would break down, sure our western society can handle alot of egoists, but we need people who will pose a threat towards dictatorship and tyrants.
 
TranscendHumanit
 
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 08:10 pm
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;150052 wrote:
The answer is simple, but tragic.

Most people are not intelligent ~80%, ~14% are intelligent, ~0.5% are very intelligent and ~0.0001 are extremely intelligent.

When most talk about ethics and morals, they often speak of it from a very selfish point of view, where it's the inner most selfish desires that are the values, often mixed with a bit of tyrrany.

Most think they can do a little good to some close friends, then act like an idiot towards others they don't care about, and still think of themselfs as "good".

If everybody only cares about themselfs, society would break down, sure our western society can handle alot of egoists, but we need people who will pose a threat towards dictatorship and tyrants.


Self possession without a need to reference 'standards' or 'laws' that we do not find to be really useful to ourselves is deadly enemy of despots. Enslaved very strongly those who become possessed by idea, rather than having possession of idea.

All things are self-satisfaction. Their is no consciousness outside of intentionality and the will, there no sense to 'value' outside actual value-scales of actual subjects at a definite time and place. Value only remains coherent as value felt, and value actually felt is the impetus for all purposeful action.
 
Specter
 
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 09:03 pm
@reasoning logic,
ok, so someone earlier said that the study of ethics is to decide what is right and wrong and what our decisions mean in that sense. i personally think that this is not entirely true and that the study of ethics is a joke, if only partly.

the way i see it, there is no universal code of ethics, and thus it is ridiculous to say that there is one single key to the whole thing. what one culture views as right and just may seem absurd in another culture, that is why i say it is ridiculous. what is more, ethics are always evolving along with culture itself so what passes in one day may pass away another.

i think it is more valuable to act according to personal feeling and conviction; to be true to one's self, essentially.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 05:39 am
@TranscendHumanit,
TranscendHumanit;150412 wrote:
Self possession without a need to reference 'standards' or 'laws' that we do not find to be really useful to ourselves is deadly enemy of despots. Enslaved very strongly those who become possessed by idea, rather than having possession of idea.

All things are self-satisfaction. Their is no consciousness outside of intentionality and the will, there no sense to 'value' outside actual value-scales of actual subjects at a definite time and place. Value only remains coherent as value felt, and value actually felt is the impetus for all purposeful action.
Uhmm ..think you see things and speak things through a calendescope.
 
jack phil
 
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 03:00 pm
@reasoning logic,
I dunno why we are here, but it surely isn't to enjoy ourselves.
 
Diogenes phil
 
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 05:53 pm
@reasoning logic,
The thing about ethicism being a joke is that no matter what arguments you present, or receive, your opinion will most likely not change.
 
reasoning logic
 
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 07:07 pm
@Diogenes phil,
Diogenes;154660 wrote:
The thing about ethicism being a joke is that no matter what arguments you present, or receive, your opinion will most likely not change.


Yes I do think that you hit the nail on the head so to speak. We need to find out how to overcome this problem. I believe that the main factor is called [confirmation bias].:detective: We need to be aware of this and it needs to be discussed and taught.Smile
 
 

 
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