Good and Evil

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Krumple
 
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 05:30 pm
@trismegisto,
trismegisto;148630 wrote:
Who are you trying to kid, your remarks are clearly stated. You cannot hide behind false innocence. But perhaps you are just unaware of your rude nature, so I will let it go. However I have not yet read any further. If you have continued to be rude, I will return the favor.


Perhaps you focus too much on a simple statement rather than the actual claim? I will try to avoid insulting you with simple remarks then. Oh wait, I think I just did it again.

trismegisto;148630 wrote:

Ah, so you do prefer the low road. Okay, well if thats the way you want it.


Perhaps you focus on the "insults" because you have nothing more to offer?

trismegisto;148630 wrote:

Like I said before, it does not matter if you accept it or not. It is the definition provided for this thread. If you are not capable of dealing with that then you should probably stop now. Otherwise structure your arguments around the definition. If you need authority figures to define how you think then you are in the wrong place.


Here is your first sign that you are a troll. First you reprimand me for not having the proper definition. So then I make a request to you, and now you respond by saying I shouldn't rely on anyone to define how I think? This is a troll tactic to hide behind a statement, then bate and switch the argument endlessly. Perhaps you shouldn't scold someone for not understanding something unless you are going to actually provide something in return? Or else it makes your argument very weak. Is this more insult? Or is it honest criticism?

trismegisto;148630 wrote:

Well, I will try to make sense of what you wrote but it is really nonesense so bear with me. You seem to think that infinite implies filling everything which is silly in itself. infinite does not fill, it simply is. Inifinte is boundless. There is no sub-infinite. There is no infinite [thing]. There is only the infinte supreme. That is the only way the word infinite can be applied, there is no other use for it.


I wasn't talking about infinite in general. I was referring to your use of infinite supreme. How can the "supreme" be infinite if it is not all encompassing? I am saying your definition of infinite supreme is just some fantastical idea you have, a play with words, but by their very meaning they defy what you claim them to be. You know exactly what I mean, but you refuse to acknowledge it because you are attached to this idea.

I get the impression that you don't really want any skepticism on your claim, you would rather just have a bunch of people who think as you do, smile and nod in agreement.

If you are wanting to teach this infinite supreme to me, you can't just make hallow claims and then hide behind some remarks as to why you can't fulfill any requests.


trismegisto;148630 wrote:

I don't think you meant to phrase the question like that. There were a couple atoms that caused some problems in Japan a few years back.


See you knew exactly what I meant with my question, yet you play this game as if you were not clear. You know that I meant, when atoms came into existence after the universe cooled enough for them to form, what had to suffer because of it? What was destroyed? I can tell by your response that you know very little of chemistry and or physics. I can tell you, that nothing is harmed or was harmed to form atoms. Unless you think the plasma is harmed by cooling which allowed for the first hydrogen atoms to form.

trismegisto;148630 wrote:

What I think you meant to ask was what harm was caused for atoms to exist? Well, for that you should ask a scientist because I am not well versed in that strain of history. BBut what I do know is that in order for atoms to exist particle-antiparticle pairs had to be destroyed and reduced to electromagnetic energy. Every THING requires the destruction of something else to exist. This is the harm every thing causes.


Not everything. In fact the electromagnetic energy itself was not harmed and can not be harmed. You can't create or destroy matter or energy.

trismegisto;148630 wrote:

Just so everyone who reads this thread understands your position here. What you are implying is that what you wrote was not meant to be insulting? By the way, this is what you wrote:

"Once again your definition is just an empty desired trait that you insist must be there for your delusion to work."

Are you an idiot? I don't understand how you can insult someone and then cry foul for being called out for the insult. Grow up.


The delusion I was referring to was that you can have an infinite supreme without it being all encompassing. That is a contradiction in terms and that is why I called it a delusion. If you find that insulting, I will apologize, but I don't consider it any attempt at insulting you.

trismegisto;148630 wrote:

We are dealing with good and evil which has no relation to science. If you CHOOSE to bring science into the argument it has to be good science, not just your own personal opinion of what you would like science to say.


Hmm, skeptical of your statement here. You seem to reserve the right to claim any science brought into the argument is not qualified. But even if you didn't imply that, there is no need to bring any science into the argument because it is not necessary.

trismegisto;148630 wrote:

Lets just take a look at EVERY question you asked in your last post:

Don't you mean your invented desire for what good is?
What does it even mean to say infinite supreme good?
What harm did it cause?
Profound?


Maybe you don't realize that you come across as an arrogant ass. Try rereading what you have written before you post if you don't want people to get that image of you.


One person might see me that way, and another might see me differently. Some people like you and some people will hate you. You can be nice and called worse or you could be worse and called nice. I am not worried by what impression I give, nor what peoples opinions of me are. Like or hate me, it is all relative. Even if your infinite supreme stood before you, I bet you wouldn't even recognize him. If that is insulting then everything I say will be insulting to you. I am not insulting you by that remark.

trismegisto;148630 wrote:

If you simply reply with respect and civility and stop being so self-righteous you might actually learn something. After all, isn't that why you are here?


Yes, I will make a stink any time someone tosses out a term like infinite supreme without defining it and then when pressed for an explanation there is more dodgy responses.
 
trismegisto
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 11:29 am
@Krumple,
You have clearly lost all credibility with your tantrums and pathetic insults. I am not sure whty you continue to embarrass yourself burt I will attempt again to educate you on your asinine behavior so that you may be able to someday grow into a fully functional adult. Shall we begin?

Krumple;148671 wrote:
Perhaps you focus too much on a simple statement rather than the actual claim? I will try to avoid insulting you with simple remarks then. Oh wait, I think I just did it again.


All you make are simple statements, there is intelligent thought behind your flaming drivel. That is why everybody focuses on your SIMPLE statements.

Krumple;148671 wrote:
Perhaps you focus on the "insults" because you have nothing more to offer?


No, actually, everyone focuses on your insults because that is all you have to offer

Krumple;148671 wrote:
Here is your first sign that you are a troll. First you reprimand me for not having the proper definition. So then I make a request to you, and now you respond by saying I shouldn't rely on anyone to define how I think? This is a troll tactic to hide behind a statement, then bate and switch the argument endlessly. Perhaps you shouldn't scold someone for not understanding something unless you are going to actually provide something in return? Or else it makes your argument very weak. Is this more insult? Or is it honest criticism?


This is not even closely based on reality. I would suggest you go back and actually read the drivel that you wrote. Perhaps it made sense in your head but the words you typed are meaningless. Try again, you will get it. Intellectual conversation takes practice, the more you do it, the more you will make sense until eventually you are capable of articulating an intellectual thought.



Krumple;148671 wrote:
I wasn't talking about infinite in general. I was referring to your use of infinite supreme. How can the "supreme" be infinite if it is not all encompassing? I am saying your definition of infinite supreme is just some fantastical idea you have, a play with words, but by their very meaning they defy what you claim them to be. You know exactly what I mean, but you refuse to acknowledge it because you are attached to this idea.


clearly you have no real understanding of the concept of infinite. I suggest you try reading a book. not one with pictures. Just to help you out in order to "encompass" you have to distinguish one from another, Infinite is only ever indistinguishable. I know these are difficult concepts and I dont expect you to understand but I do expect you to do a little research or ask politiely before you start spewing out insults based on your own ignorance.

Krumple;148671 wrote:
I get the impression that you don't really want any skepticism on your claim, you would rather just have a bunch of people who think as you do, smile and nod in agreement.


I have had many wonderful conversations with people about these topics, the only problems I run into is when I come across children such as yourself who have not yet learned how to communicate with respect as adults do. Its okay though, I don't mind teaching you how to interact with grownups, although, it would be better if you asked your parents instead. After all, that is their job.

Krumple;148671 wrote:
If you are wanting to teach this infinite supreme to me, you can't just make hallow claims and then hide behind some remarks as to why you can't fulfill any requests.


If you want to learn this infinite supreme from me you have to leave your childishness antics behind. I only teach grownups. I post extreme philosophy to weed out those who truly desire to learn from those who are just trying to feel safe from all the scary things in the dark. You are clearly scared of the dark and lash out at that which you don't understand. When you learn to control that knee jerk reaction, you will begin to learn. I hope it is sooner than later.


Krumple;148671 wrote:
See you knew exactly what I meant with my question, yet you play this game as if you were not clear. You know that I meant, when atoms came into existence after the universe cooled enough for them to form, what had to suffer because of it? What was destroyed? I can tell by your response that you know very little of chemistry and or physics. I can tell you, that nothing is harmed or was harmed to form atoms. Unless you think the plasma is harmed by cooling which allowed for the first hydrogen atoms to form. Not everything. In fact the electromagnetic energy itself was not harmed and can not be harmed. You can't create or destroy matter or energy.


You're particular version of science is not rooted in reality. Of course, to be fair, until the Higgins Boson is discovered, much science is not rooted in reality. However, if you do not think that plasma is harmed by cooling then there is no hope for you. I suppose you would say that a rock is not harmed by heat. You need you leave your childish behind. This is no arena for such thoughts.



Krumple;148671 wrote:
The delusion I was referring to was that you can have an infinite supreme without it being all encompassing. That is a contradiction in terms and that is why I called it a delusion. If you find that insulting, I will apologize, but I don't consider it any attempt at insulting you.


That is because you are an ass. I will accept your apology but also continue to know that you are an ass and will not expect any type of intellectual thought from your posts until you can demonstrate that you have chosen to no longer be an ass.



Krumple;148671 wrote:
Hmm, skeptical of your statement here. You seem to reserve the right to claim any science brought into the argument is not qualified. But even if you didn't imply that, there is no need to bring any science into the argument because it is not necessary.


Well, from the caliber of your posts, I would not be surprised if you still believed in eugenics. That is not good science. However, science only deals with half f reality. it only deals with the things within the universe. It says nothing as to thoughts or that beyond the universe.


Krumple;148671 wrote:
One person might see me that way, and another might see me differently. Some people like you and some people will hate you. You can be nice and called worse or you could be worse and called nice. I am not worried by what impression I give, nor what peoples opinions of me are. Like or hate me, it is all relative. Even if your infinite supreme stood before you, I bet you wouldn't even recognize him. If that is insulting then everything I say will be insulting to you. I am not insulting you by that remark.


First you don't insult me you insult yourself by exposing your ignorance to the world. If you have questions, and clearly you do, just ask. As you begin this intellectual journey through adulthood, many of your childish notions will be challenged. Don't cling to those and lash out at your betters, just listen, ask your questions, and take from it what you will. As you get older you will learn how to behave.

Krumple;148671 wrote:
Yes, I will make a stink any time someone tosses out a term like infinite supreme without defining it and then when pressed for an explanation there is more dodgy responses.


The definition was freely given, it is only your own childish ignorance that leaves you blind. Try reading all the words instead of just skimming. And YOU should probably read all the words a few times and then spend some time consciously contemplating it. If you still dont get it then go ahead and ask.

Don't worry you will learn. Good luck.
 
Mister Carcer
 
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 12:08 pm
@trismegisto,
trismegisto;146014 wrote:
Good - that which does no harm
Evil - that which harms

Is a surgeon who cuts open a patient in order to save his life a good or an evil person?
 
trismegisto
 
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 12:23 pm
@Mister Carcer,
Mister Carcer;149277 wrote:
Is a surgeon who cuts open a patient in order to save his life a good or an evil person?


A surgeon destroys in order to survive, that makes a surgeon evil.

There are no such things as evil or good actions, only right and wrong actions and there are no such things as good people only evil ones.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 01:52 pm
@trismegisto,
trismegisto;148829 wrote:
You have clearly lost all credibility with your tantrums and pathetic insults. I am not sure whty you continue to embarrass yourself burt I will attempt again to educate you on your asinine behavior so that you may be able to someday grow into a fully functional adult. Shall we begin?



All you make are simple statements, there is intelligent thought behind your flaming drivel. That is why everybody focuses on your SIMPLE statements.



No, actually, everyone focuses on your insults because that is all you have to offer



This is not even closely based on reality. I would suggest you go back and actually read the drivel that you wrote. Perhaps it made sense in your head but the words you typed are meaningless. Try again, you will get it. Intellectual conversation takes practice, the more you do it, the more you will make sense until eventually you are capable of articulating an intellectual thought.





clearly you have no real understanding of the concept of infinite. I suggest you try reading a book. not one with pictures. Just to help you out in order to "encompass" you have to distinguish one from another, Infinite is only ever indistinguishable. I know these are difficult concepts and I dont expect you to understand but I do expect you to do a little research or ask politiely before you start spewing out insults based on your own ignorance.



I have had many wonderful conversations with people about these topics, the only problems I run into is when I come across children such as yourself who have not yet learned how to communicate with respect as adults do. Its okay though, I don't mind teaching you how to interact with grownups, although, it would be better if you asked your parents instead. After all, that is their job.



If you want to learn this infinite supreme from me you have to leave your childishness antics behind. I only teach grownups. I post extreme philosophy to weed out those who truly desire to learn from those who are just trying to feel safe from all the scary things in the dark. You are clearly scared of the dark and lash out at that which you don't understand. When you learn to control that knee jerk reaction, you will begin to learn. I hope it is sooner than later.




You're particular version of science is not rooted in reality. Of course, to be fair, until the Higgins Boson is discovered, much science is not rooted in reality. However, if you do not think that plasma is harmed by cooling then there is no hope for you. I suppose you would say that a rock is not harmed by heat. You need you leave your childish behind. This is no arena for such thoughts.





That is because you are an ass. I will accept your apology but also continue to know that you are an ass and will not expect any type of intellectual thought from your posts until you can demonstrate that you have chosen to no longer be an ass.





Well, from the caliber of your posts, I would not be surprised if you still believed in eugenics. That is not good science. However, science only deals with half f reality. it only deals with the things within the universe. It says nothing as to thoughts or that beyond the universe.




First you don't insult me you insult yourself by exposing your ignorance to the world. If you have questions, and clearly you do, just ask. As you begin this intellectual journey through adulthood, many of your childish notions will be challenged. Don't cling to those and lash out at your betters, just listen, ask your questions, and take from it what you will. As you get older you will learn how to behave.



The definition was freely given, it is only your own childish ignorance that leaves you blind. Try reading all the words instead of just skimming. And YOU should probably read all the words a few times and then spend some time consciously contemplating it. If you still dont get it then go ahead and ask.

Don't worry you will learn. Good luck.



Yeah just as I thought, you had absolutely nothing to answer with. Just keep the ad hominems coming.
 
reasoning logic
 
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 02:55 pm
@trismegisto,
trismegisto;149279 wrote:
A surgeon destroys in order to survive, that makes a surgeon evil.

There are no such things as evil or good actions, only right and wrong actions and there are no such things as good people only evil ones.


Would you please elaborate or use laymens terms so I may be able to understand your point of view. Thanks. Reasoning Self Logic:)
 
Mister Carcer
 
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 02:59 pm
@trismegisto,
trismegisto;149279 wrote:
A surgeon destroys in order to survive, that makes a surgeon evil.

There are no such things as evil or good actions, only right and wrong actions and there are no such things as good people only evil ones.

Can I an evil person such as myself do what is right or does being evil make all my actions wrong?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 03:10 pm
@Mister Carcer,
Mister Carcer;149319 wrote:
Can I an evil person such as myself do what is right or does being evil make all my actions wrong?


Only by inadvertence. Are you careless?
 
Mister Carcer
 
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 03:18 pm
@kennethamy,
I try not to be careless, but maybe if I was more careless, I might accidentally do what is right.
 
trismegisto
 
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 04:00 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic;149314 wrote:
Would you please elaborate or use laymens terms so I may be able to understand your point of view. Thanks. Reasoning Self Logic:)


These are about the laymenest words I can use, wink.

First you have to distinguish Right and Wrong from Good and Evil.

(Let's be honest, you don't HAVE to do anything, but if you want to understand these thoughts then you do have to be willing to at least hypothetically indulge their validity)

Good and Evil are *states* of being. Right and Wrong are actions.
There is no Right and Wrong *states* of being just as there are no Good or Evil actions.

A Good *state* of being is one which requires nothing else to exist. Therefore, there is only One *state* of Being which can be Good, the Infinite Supreme.

The next *state* of being is the Creator, normally referred to in religions as God. The Creator has only one difference to the Infinite Supreme and that is that The Creator has boundaries. The Creator is the Infinite Supreme defined, or rather confined. There is no other than the Infinite Supreme, there is not beyond the Infinite Supreme, there is only the Infinite Supreme and what is contained therein.

(I know it's a lot)

So, the Creator while wholly of Good is not Good in itself because the Creator requires first boundaries within the Infinite Supreme to exist. The Creator is not Evil either, however as the Creator requires no harm to the Infinite Supreme only a change. This change is the basis for the existence of the Creator and as such change is the nature of the Creator. All of Creation is only change.

So, within the Creator is Creation. Creation contains all the ideas and objects beginning with the first and ending with the last. That is the boundary of Creation. All of the ideas and objects, from first to last, exist in perfect harmony within creation as eternal as the Creator. Still, the ideas and objects require the Creator to exist but as they are of the Creator and as eternal as the Creator they are not vet evil.

So, within Creation aspects of ideas and objects join together temporarily creating thoughts and things. Our universe is such a thing. It is a physical thing comprised of a certain combination of ideas and objects within Creation. The universe is a temporary thing. It is continuously acted upon by the ideas and objects within Creation, continuously changing the universe and creating time.

The changing things within the universe require certain aspects of the universe in order to manifest. There is no loss of the universe only change, the dissolution of one thing within the universe in order for another thing to exist is Evil.

(Wow, that was a long tangent with entirely too much information, I will try to be more brief)

So lets skip past all the different things it took to get to the surgeon.

The body of the surgeon is a temporary thing within the universe it required the dissolution of many other things in order for it to exist, least of which is the body of the surgeon's entire family tree. More to the point, the food it's mother ingested in order for it to grow in her. Not only does the surgeon's body require the dissolution of other things in order for it to exist, it requires the continuous dissolution of other things for the duration of its life.

When the other things that are being dissolved were once alive, we tend to call that harm. However, life is not a prerequisite for harming a temporary thing.

So, the body of the surgeon is in itself an evil thing and no amount of right action can change that.

(I finally got to Right and Wrong)

The surgeon however has devoted this body's life to preventing the dissolution of things, namely people. Which is a noble endeavor and requires large strings of right action.

When we act for the sake of Love for All we take right action.
When we act for the sake of Love for Self, beyond survival, we take wrong action.

We have to eat to survive and yet we must end life to eat, this makes us naturally evil. However, nature accepts evil and the entire natural world is a balanced buffet of evil things taking right action in order to ensure survival.

Well, that is the entire natural world except for men.

Men are out of balance with the natural world. It is not that men are to behave as animals and return to the wilderness. That is not the purpose of men. The purpose of men is to tend to the world. Through right action men have the ability to bring out all the beauty of the Good that is the world itself.

But men have turned to Love of Self over Love of All and as such repeatedly take Wrong action.

(geez this just goes on and on)

In short, while the surgeon lives a noble life in the pursuit of right action, the body id inescapably evil and the most the surgeon can hope to do is to continue to live causing the least amount of harm as possible.

Unfortunately, it always leads back to vegetarianism. Boo.

I am sure this just creates more questions than answers.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 05:35 pm
@trismegisto,
trismegisto;149279 wrote:
A surgeon destroys in order to survive, that makes a surgeon evil.

There are no such things as evil or good actions, only right and wrong actions and there are no such things as good people only evil ones.
Are you trying to be amuseing here? It doesn't reflect that world which I live in. Imo it doesn't relfect greater knowledge of psycology such as group think, demagogue ..etc, less that you actually have had a job leading people.
 
trismegisto
 
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 06:08 pm
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;149427 wrote:
Are you trying to be amuseing here? It doesn't reflect that world which I live in. Imo it doesn't relfect greater knowledge of psycology such as group think, demagogue ..etc, less that you actually have had a job leading people.


your words are meaningless

But thank you for your OPINION

---------- Post added 04-07-2010 at 05:16 PM ----------

Mister Carcer;149319 wrote:
Can I an evil person such as myself do what is right or does being evil make all my actions wrong?


You're fine. Being evil isn't a curse, its just the way it is.
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 07:09 pm
@trismegisto,
I am closing this thread. Unfortunately the discussion has degenerated into a conversation many people do not want to have let alone read through. Anyone is of course welcome to start a new thread on the same topic, and of course the same opening post can be used, however it's probably best this topic has a clean slate to work on.
 
trismegisto
 
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 07:25 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401;149452 wrote:
I am closing this thread. Unfortunately the discussion has degenerated into a conversation many people do not want to have let alone read through. Anyone is of course welcome to start a new thread on the same topic, and of course the same opening post can be used, however it's probably best this topic has a clean slate to work on.


Just because you were called out for abusing your powers you are going to seek petty revenge. You are a child. There is pertinent conversation occurring in this thread

(aside from your tantrums)

Why don't you grow up!
 
 

 
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