Defusing subjectivism

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Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 08:09 am
[INDENT]So subjectivism, even with its unsettling contrast between morality and science, is still not logically committed to producing practical consequences. It cannot even yield the conclusion that we are more solidly justified in having factual beliefs than moral ones; or on more objective ground in pursuing a factual question than pursuing a moral one; or objectively justified in seeking the truth about anything; or in trying to find scientific explanations of phenomena rather than resting content with superstition. For all it gave us was that factual and scientific beliefs were objective; that we should seek factual or scientific beliefs is not itself a factual or scientific belief.
--Bernard Williams; Morality: An Introduction to Ethics


[/INDENT]Thoughts?
 
Mr Fight the Power
 
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 08:21 am
@nerdfiles,
I agree. I have wondered why scientific beliefs have remained on hallowed ground while moral beliefs have been whittled to almost nothing (the current movement is to define them as nothing and wrap them up into scientific beliefs).

Don't know if it defuses subjectivism though. It could just make subjectivism that much more of a hazard. Factual knowledge just might be the next to go.
 
hue-man
 
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 05:55 pm
@nerdfiles,
nerdfiles wrote:
[INDENT]So subjectivism, even with its unsettling contrast between morality and science, is still not logically committed to producing practical consequences. It cannot even yield the conclusion that we are more solidly justified in having factual beliefs than moral ones; or on more objective ground in pursuing a factual question than pursuing a moral one; or objectively justified in seeking the truth about anything; or in trying to find scientific explanations of phenomena rather than resting content with superstition. For all it gave us was that factual and scientific beliefs were objective; that we should seek factual or scientific beliefs is not itself a factual or scientific belief.
--Bernard Williams; Morality: An Introduction to Ethics


[/INDENT]Thoughts?


The philosophy of science. We value science because we value knowledge and wisdom. Science is a practical methodology, and therefore science would not exist without the persons that are needed to practice science. However, the objects that science refers to are not dependent on the subjective perception of the human mind. So it is not the practice itself that is objective, it is the objects it refers to that are objective.
 
Phosphorous
 
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 06:35 pm
@nerdfiles,
Reminds me of the subjectivist argument against rationalism: That there is no rational reason to only accept rationalism. Funny thing about both of these arguments, however, is that if you reject rationalism, then you are embracing irrationalism. But if that were the case, the irrational thing to do in that scenario would be to embrace rationalism. So it is the same with the scientific theory, and your back where you started.

In other words, you can seek science and be inconsistent, or you can stick with irrationalism and be a hypocrite.
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 07:38 pm
@nerdfiles,
Am I the only one that is growing tired of isms in general? They make nice categories for the different understandings of the world, but I worry about the herd mentality, and following hierarchies of ideas too literally. While I do think science tends to hold authority, upon closer examination it is good science that holds authority, as well as good morality, etc. So anything that puts science on a pedestal without questioning its empirical worth is a highly questionable basis of ethical authority.
 
hue-man
 
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 07:49 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
Am I the only one that is growing tired of isms in general? They make nice categories for the different understandings of the world, but I worry about the herd mentality, and following hierarchies of ideas too literally. While I do think science tends to hold authority, upon closer examination it is good science that holds authority, as well as good morality, etc. So anything that puts science on a pedestal without questioning its empirical worth is a highly questionable basis of ethical authority.


I'm not tired of isms at all. It's just used for classification is all. We use isms for the same reasons we use language in the first place. There are, however, some isms that I am very tired of, like racism, ethnocentrism, nationalism and sexism. I'm also tired of some ias, like xenophobia, homophobia, etc. These terms really create the herd mentality.
 
rhinogrey
 
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 08:52 pm
@Phosphorous,
Phosphorous wrote:
In other words, you can seek science and be inconsistent, or you can stick with irrationalism and be a hypocrite.


:bigsmile: I love it!
 
nerdfiles
 
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 08:58 pm
@nerdfiles,
I think some of you miss the crux of the issue; and perhaps this is due to this quote being, well, a quote from a context within a wider book.

I figured this would, though, be self-evident: The subjectivist argues: "Look, we've got objective stuff to talk about. Science gives us those stuffs. (Implicit assumption: ) We're better justified at going after the objective stuff. Talk about what is not objective or not self-evidently objective has no justification or has justification of a sort much weaker than the justification in science."

The problem here, which is underscored by Williams, is that the metaphysical status of truth and the metaphysical status of scientific truths does not imply that we ought to seek them. The nature of truth has nothing to do with our motivation. It's not necessary that we assent to a dictator simply because he is a dictator.

More specifically, and what I presume is generally understood by you all, the "objective status of truth" does not imply that the procedure in determining those truths is "objective." Scientists cannot claim, "Well, look, the facts are objective. It follows that we had to use objective means to get to them."

Surely I can get to an objective truth by subjective means. "The cat is on the mat at time t" can be a true proposition which, in some cases, someone can arrive at by subjective means (perhaps a priori). We wouldn't thereby say that my means of getting at the truth of it becomes objective. You want to remind everyone that I arrived at such a truth by a priori reasoning or knowledge or thought. It's certainly possible for me to arrive at the truth of the claim without having to observe it. It's not necessarily just coincidence either. I can determine a priori contingent truths and its not necessary that they be coincidence because I didn't follow the relevant scientific or empirical procedure.

In any case, the point is, the status of the truths of that scientific purportedly gives does not determine the procedure by which it arrives at them.

But the subjective wishes to argue that the methods of science, say, are objective on account of its truths being objective.

The subjectivist then concludes that since its truths are objective, its method is objective. Thus, since morality does not follow the procedure, or a procedure similar to scientists (insofar as they justify their conclusions), morality must be a "shoot-from-the-hip" willy-nilly endeavor that has no objective justification. Thus, the subjectivist about morality falls into a steep of despair (and relativism about morality). But this puts the cart before the horse argument-wise.

---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 PM ----------

Phosphorous wrote:
Reminds me of the subjectivist argument against rationalism: That there is no rational reason to only accept rationalism. Funny thing about both of these arguments, however, is that if you reject rationalism, then you are embracing irrationalism. But if that were the case, the irrational thing to do in that scenario would be to embrace rationalism. So it is the same with the scientific theory, and your back where you started.

In other words, you can seek science and be inconsistent, or you can stick with irrationalism and be a hypocrite.


Well, "rationalism" and "irrationalism" both need at least some rough definition.

And it has to be determined whether these categories are exhaustive and/or exclusive. And there needs to be a determination of what falls under the "nonrational" category.
 
Mr Fight the Power
 
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 09:46 am
@nerdfiles,
I don't know enough about the arguments of each group to really comment on that.

I will say that even if science is not mind-independent, it can be said that scientific truth is not subject (or at least less and less subject) to mind variation, in that the scientific method is intersubjective.

With that said, I don't see how subjective valuations of morality cannot be extended to meet the same intersubjective requirements, some would meet them.

Neither science nor moral belief ever meets a final arbiter and the only difference between them is the degree of variation in the functions that lead to them amongst people. The processing of external sensation is simply more uniform than the processing of moral decision making.
 
nerdfiles
 
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 10:01 am
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power wrote:
I don't know enough about the arguments of each group to really comment on that.

I will say that even if science is not mind-independent, it can be said that scientific truth is not subject (or at least less and less subject) to mind variation, in that the scientific method is intersubjective.

With that said, I don't see how subjective valuations of morality cannot be extended to meet the same intersubjective requirements, some would meet them.

Neither science nor moral belief ever meets a final arbiter and the only difference between them is the degree of variation in the functions that lead to them amongst people. The processing of external sensation is simply more uniform than the processing of moral decision making.


The whole point is that subjectivists use the nature of "scientific truth" to imply a nature of scientific methodology.

Your means is not objectively justified simply because the truth you happened to obtain is objective.

This is the point. And further, you cannot say discourse on morality cannot be an objective procedure simply because you've shown that science obtains "scientific truths." You need to explain why science's procedure is objective and why moral discourse cannot have that. You cannot say "well, science's truth are objective." That doesn't say anything about science's procedure or morality's procedure; really, it's a red herring.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 11:01 am
@nerdfiles,
nerdfiles wrote:
Surely I can get to an objective truth by subjective means. "The cat is on the mat at time t" can be a true proposition which, in some cases, someone can arrive at by subjective means (perhaps a priori).


Yes, but this is not moral discourse, is it?

Quote:
You need to explain why science's procedure is objective and why moral discourse cannot have that. You cannot say "well, science's truth are objective.
I cannot think of any way moral discourse can have that. Moral propositions seem to be completely open to interpretation, perception-based; it's not the fact they are subjective that is key. The procedure to come upon, "I think he's a good guy", doesn't seem to follow any objective grounds, or even a template with which we can measure off of - it's an opinion, based on "feeling", is it not? What kind of truth can we obtain from a moral proposition such as this? Whereas the procedure to come upon, "One molecule of water has two hydrogen atoms" seems to allow us to obtain truth, perception and interpretation aside, this coincides with reality. Moral procedures and propositions that follow seem to be outside the realm of "true" or "false".

I'm very interested in hearing how moral procedures can hold the objective weight scientific procedures can. Let me clarify I completely understand we cannot make the objective error: thinking our procedure is objective simply because we reach an objective truth. But what I'm saying is I don't see any truth at all spawning from a moral procedure.

Can you provide any examples where we do?
 
Mr Fight the Power
 
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 11:28 am
@nerdfiles,
nerdfiles wrote:
The whole point is that subjectivists use the nature of "scientific truth" to imply a nature of scientific methodology.

Your means is not objectively justified simply because the truth you happened to obtain is objective.

This is the point. And further, you cannot say discourse on morality cannot be an objective procedure simply because you've shown that science obtains "scientific truths." You need to explain why science's procedure is objective and why moral discourse cannot have that. You cannot say "well, science's truth are objective." That doesn't say anything about science's procedure or morality's procedure; really, it's a red herring.


Ok, I agree.

What are the consequences?

How is a procedure justified?

---------- Post added at 02:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:28 PM ----------

Zetherin wrote:
I'm very interested in hearing how moral procedures can hold the objective weight scientific procedures can. Let me clarify I completely understand we cannot make the objective error: thinking our procedure is objective simply because we reach an objective truth. But what I'm saying is I don't see any truth at all spawning from a moral procedure.


I'm more concerned with how we make the jump from subjective procedure to objective results.

You seem willing to admit to objective truth in science (countering it with the absence thereof within morality), and that we do not have an objective procedure. How is that leap made?

You shouldn't assume that your scientific truth is objective just because it seems to deal with external phenomenon. It is just as subject to the perception, interpretation, and consensus you submit moral judgment to.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 01:06 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr.FTP wrote:
I'm more concerned with how we make the jump from subjective procedure to objective results.
nerdfiles' example, the one I just quoted, suffices for this.

Quote:
You seem willing to admit to objective truth in science (countering it with the absence thereof within morality), and that we do not have an objective procedure. How is that leap made?
What I posted here for was to realize how moral procedure is similar to scientific procedure. All moral procedure is subjective procedure, but not all subjective procedure is moral procedure. Since I do not take a moral objectivist stance, I do not believe moral propositions (and the moral procedures that derive) hold any truth.

I'm trying to be proven wrong.

Quote:
You shouldn't assume that your scientific truth is objective just because it seems to deal with external phenomenon. It is just as subject to the perception, interpretation, and consensus you submit moral judgment to.
How?

Take the two propositions I suggest: "I think Rob is a good guy" and "I think there are two hydrogen atoms in a molecule of water". What other interpretation do we have for the latter? One seems preferential, a moral proposition, the other seems to be truth-inclined. My perception of the latter is not based on judgment, but objective analysis. Is it not? Are you to say scientific truths and moral discourse do not have distinctions?

Please detail how moral procedures derive truth.
 
Mr Fight the Power
 
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 01:44 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:
nerdfiles' example, the one I just quoted, suffices for this.


At what point does my perception of the cat being on the mat and your perception of the cat being on the mat become the objective truth of the cat being on the mat?

And alternatively, when does my perception of George Bush being a morally reprehensible figure and your perception of George Bush being a morally reprehensible figure hit a wall that stops it from being objective truth?

Quote:
What I posted here for was to realize how moral procedure is similar to scientific procedure. All moral procedure is subjective procedure, but not all subjective procedure is moral procedure. Since I do not take a moral objectivist stance, I do not believe moral propositions (and the moral procedures that derive) hold any truth.

I'm trying to be proven wrong.
And I'm trying to show that moral and scientific truth and study is a difference of degrees, not kinds.

Quote:
How?

Take the two propositions I suggest: "I think Rob is a good guy" and "I think there are two hydrogen atoms in a molecule of water". What other interpretation do we have for the latter? One seems preferential, a moral proposition, the other seems to be truth-inclined. My perception of the latter is not based on judgment, but objective analysis. Is it not? Are you to say scientific truths and moral discourse do not have distinctions?


What "objective analysis"? How is such a thing possible? Isn't the point of this thread to stop people from assuming that, since the truth is objective, the procedure is objective?

Quote:
Please detail how moral procedures derive truth.


Reread my post and you will see that I never said they did.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 03:02 pm
@nerdfiles,
I am utterly lost.

Mr. FTP wrote:

At what point does my perception of the cat being on the mat and your perception of the cat being on the mat become the objective truth of the cat being on the mat?
Each perception is subjective, so you're right, when does it become an objective truth? You could see slight variations, deviating from my subjective experience.

Quote:

And alternatively, when does my perception of George Bush being a morally reprehensible figure and your perception of George Bush being a morally reprehensible figure hit a wall that stops it from being objective truth?
Can moral propositions be objective truth? Can moral propositions hold any truth? Now I'm even lost as to what "truth" is.

Quote:
And I'm trying to show that moral and scientific truth and study is a difference of degrees, not kinds.
What do you mean "degrees"?

Quote:

What "objective analysis"? How is such a thing possible? Isn't the point of this thread to stop people from assuming that, since the truth is objective, the procedure is objective?
Yes, that is the point.

If no procedure is objective, every procedure is subjective.

How, then, do we seek objective truth? Does objective truth even exist? Wouldn't every truth then be subjective, rendering this entire discussion null?

Quote:
Reread my post and you will see that I never said they did.
Do you think scientific propositions derive truth? You say moral propositions just have a difference in degree, so why would they not derive truth (if you say yes to the former)?

This is one topic I've always been confused concerning, and never have I achieved clarification. Excuse my uselessness, and thank you for your contributions.

I think I'm starting to see the point of the initial post: "Objective" really doesn't mean anything, it's just a classification we've assigned to methods of rationalization such as science. It doesn't hold any more weight than subjective knowledge, such as a moral proposition. Is this the case?

The more I know, the less I know.
 
nerdfiles
 
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 01:04 am
@nerdfiles,
Shucks. I leave for a few hours and you guys fill these threads up!

---------- Post added at 02:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:04 AM ----------

Zetherin wrote:
Yes, but this is not moral discourse, is it?

I cannot think of any way moral discourse can have that. Moral propositions seem to be completely open to interpretation, perception-based; it's not the fact they are subjective that is key. The procedure to come upon, "I think he's a good guy", doesn't seem to follow any objective grounds, or even a template with which we can measure off of - it's an opinion, based on "feeling", is it not? What kind of truth can we obtain from a moral proposition such as this? Whereas the procedure to come upon, "One molecule of water has two hydrogen atoms" seems to allow us to obtain truth, perception and interpretation aside, this coincides with reality. Moral procedures and propositions that follow seem to be outside the realm of "true" or "false".

I'm very interested in hearing how moral procedures can hold the objective weight scientific procedures can. Let me clarify I completely understand we cannot make the objective error: thinking our procedure is objective simply because we reach an objective truth. But what I'm saying is I don't see any truth at all spawning from a moral procedure.

Can you provide any examples where we do?


The issue here is whether the scientific procedure has the objectivity that it is purported to have. I'm not saying that moral discourse can achieve the objectivity that science has because, as the skeptical argument goes, it remains to be seen that there is an "objective procedure" in science.

The moral subjectivist depends on the assumption that science's purported objective "truths" imply its objective procedure.

Thus, the claim is: (1) If science's truths are objective, then science's methods (or procedure) are objective.

By contraposition, (2) If science's methods are not objective, then science's truths are not objective.

But this seems completely wrong-headed. It does not seem to be the case that the objective status of the truths seems implies the objective status of the method so used. Likewise, it does not seem to be the case that the failing-to-be-objective methods of science establish the failing-to-be-objective truths it yields.

Largely we consider science to be an intersubjective endeavor. Given the like position, like observational conditions and like theoretical model, we're likely to achieve the same observational conclusions. (Lotta likes.) But this is intersubjective.

However, the subjectivist raises the status of science's method to being objective because of the purported truths that, presumably it and only it, can obtain. But this assumes that the truths it obtains has a certain objective status...wherefrom? It certainly cannot be that our objective methods determine objective truths, for the objective truths may be hidden from us.

Surely this intersubjective model works for morality. Many people can look at an obscene murder case or a rape case and come to, more or less (in the same way that scientific language more or less describes in similar ways), the same conclusion. Or, more importantly, employ the same moral vocabulary or concepts and produce, as the scientists do, linguistic expressions which are not radical and counterintuitive. ("He's immoral"; "He did the wrong thing"; "Justice can only be achieved if the murderer or rapist is treated thus and so"; etc) Interesting thing is, you'll see just as much consistency and similarity across extreme cases in moral discourse (on a global scale--positioning, dispersed observational conditions (cultures) and disparate (presumably) theoretical models) as you'll see in, perhaps, mundane non-extreme cases of scientific observation (where everyone involved aims at being in the same observational conditions and maintaining the largely similar theoretical models).

---------- Post added at 02:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:04 AM ----------

Sorry if that's overly...well, garbled. I'm sure you can spot the meaty claims and understand them if you at least read them twice.
 
Mr Fight the Power
 
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2009 08:30 am
@nerdfiles,
I agree with what nerdfiles has said so far.

The distinction made between formation of moral and scientific "truths" is an illusion.

To branch into philosophical grab-assing, this would follow from an evolutionary explanation.

We can understand that behavior and the interpretation upon which behavior rests is dependent upon the environment. Our powers of perception and interpretation are going to be largely environmentally neutral. Whatever environment we find ourselves in, accurate perception and interpretation of our environment is necessary. However, social and moral relationships is heavily dependent upon environmental factors. Social norms can easily be shown to rest upon the resources available to the population.

Now, no matter what truth you seek, we must accept that it is ultimately anchored within the human mind, and at some point, to avoid circularity, certain assumptions are contained within the mind that are simply inviolable. It stands to reason that, with the environment imposing far greater variation on social and moral norms than perception and interpretation, that the biological framework of the mind would cause a much greater variation in those inviolable moral values and assumptions.

Said acknowledgment of variation could easily cause scientific, empirically-based knowledge to appear more objectively founded.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2009 02:41 pm
@nerdfiles,
Mr. Fight the Power wrote:

Now, no matter what truth you seek, we must accept that it is ultimately anchored within the human mind, and at some point, to avoid circularity, certain assumptions are contained within the mind that are simply inviolable. It stands to reason that, with the environment imposing far greater variation on social and moral norms than perception and interpretation, that the biological framework of the mind would cause a much greater variation in those inviolable moral values and assumptions.

Said acknowledgment of variation could easily cause scientific, empirically-based knowledge to appear more objectively founded.


Exactly! Well said. This is what I was trying to convey. And not only is it environment which plays a role, but time period with which a person lives, along with other factors. I was reading an article earlier concerning the notion of "universal empathy" and how it is a relatively new global (for the most part) application. A whole host of factors may shift ethics and individual morality over long periods of time, and so it's very easy to see how morality doesn't seem to hold the intersubjectivity we find in many scientific endeavors. It's seemingly more malleable - it's a construct of the mind. Whereas, even if the truths found in science aren't objective (whatever that even means), we can still apply these truths to never-changing concepts found in the real world.
 
Mr Fight the Power
 
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2009 02:57 pm
@Zetherin,
As someone who is far more interested in simply thinking than actual philosophizing, I would like to thank nerdfiles for the term "philosophical grab-assing". I use it not as a barb, but as a term which I lovingly apply to my brand of philosophizing: undisciplined and unfocused, but still impassioned.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 8 Apr, 2009 03:53 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power wrote:
As someone who is far more interested in simply thinking than actual philosophizing, I would like to thank nerdfiles for the term "philosophical grab-assing". I use it not as a barb, but as a term which I lovingly apply to my brand of philosophizing: undisciplined and unfocused, but still impassioned.


I think the term is inspired from Wittgenstein's analysis of one of the problems with philosophy: He (Witt.) illustrates how language can tend to tie people into "philosophical knots", creating problems where they don't exist:

"In Wittgenstein's view, language is inextricably woven into the fabric of life, and as part of that fabric it works relatively unproblematically. Philosophical problems arise when language is forced from its proper home and into a metaphysical environment, where all the familiar and necessary landmarks and contextual clues are absent-removed, perhaps, for what appear to be sound philosophical reasons, but which lead, for Wittgenstein, to the source of the problem. Wittgenstein describes this metaphysical environment as like being on frictionless ice: where the conditions are apparently perfect for a philosophically and logically perfect language (the language of the Tractatus), where all philosophical problems can be solved without the confusing and muddying effects of everyday contexts; but where, just because of the lack of friction, language can in fact do no actual work at all. There is much talk in the Investigations, then, of "idle wheels" and language being "on holiday" or a mere "ornament", all of which are used to express the idea of what is lacking in philosophical contexts"
-wikipedia

that's just my guess, though. I think nerdfiles is just trying to say: "Look, guys, let's stop all the useless bickering and put this notion into a language that is logical and contextually-relevant to the matter at hand"

This aside, what's the differentiation between 'simply thinking' and 'actually philosophizing'? I, personally, dedicate multiple hours a day to critical thought, and most of what I think of involves philosophy in one way or another (hence my being here). I'd call myself an "armchair philosopher", as I don't have authority in any branch, but I do think and add to matters often. When does one become an actual philosopher - is it all social, authority?
 
 

 
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