The Myth of Moral Relativism

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hue-man
 
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 01:53 pm
[CENTER][SIZE=+2]The Myth of Moral Relativism[/SIZE]

by Jonathan Dolhenty, Ph.D.
[/CENTER]

The purpose of this brief essay is to show that moral (or ethical) relativism is a philosophical myth that is accepted by no one who has critically examined its tenets and that those who claim to be moral relativists are really not. We are dealing here with two aspects of a specific condition:

  • First, with a "belief" that states there are no fixed values, there are only fluctuating human valuations, or that ethical truths are relative, that is, the rightness of an action depends on or consists in the attitude taken towards it by some individual or group, and hence may vary from individual to individual or from group to group.
  • Second, with "actions" based on this belief which clearly show that the agent is, more or less, acting or behaving in a way that is consistent with the belief that moral relativism is, in fact, the true and only philosophical position.

As is usually the case in this type of reflective situation, the belief comes first, the action follows, but the action taken tells us something about the commitment to the belief undergirding the action taken.
It is easy in our contemporary society to find statements which apparently show a commitment to moral relativism. Consider just a sampling:

  • What's true for you may not be true for me.
  • Nothing is really right or wrong, but thinking makes it so.
  • Ethical judgments are just a matter of personal opinion.
  • Anything goes.
  • One man's meat is another man's poison (in regard, of course, to morals).
  • We should not judge another's personal morality.
  • No society is better or worse than another (in regard to social ethics).

The above statements, and ones similar to them, are now bandied about in ordinary conversation as if they were truths about which no one should disagree. Moreover, those who claim to be moral or ethical relativists and are bold enough to declare it would simply say: "All morals are relative and that's the end of it," or some such "philosophical" assertion.

Opinion surveys recently taken in America have shown the pervasiveness of the position promoted by moral relativism. For instance, in one survey where adults were asked if they agreed with the statement "there are no absolute standards for morals and ethics," seventy-one percent said that they agreed with it. Other surveys have shown even higher numbers who think that morality and ethics is a matter of personal opinion and that there are no universal standards by which one can determine the rightness or wrongness of a human act.

Now, I never question what a person tells me regarding his or her personal beliefs, unless I have a valid reason to think otherwise. If someone tells me that truth is a relative matter, then I accept that that is what that person believes. I then consider that person's actions to see if they are consistent with the beliefs stated. And that is where the "rubber meets the road," so to speak. I find that those who claim "all truth is relative" may spout that belief, but they never act as if its true. Similarly, I find that those who say they believe in moral relativism never act as if they really do. In fact, I find them to be moral absolutists, not moral relativists. Belief is one thing; actions are another. And it is in the realm of action that moral relativism takes the fatal "hit."

The old adage "actions speak louder than words" has a special significance here. If the "words" (beliefs) are really committed to by the moral relativist, then his or her "actions" should be consistent with those words or beliefs. And it is precisely here that moral or ethical relativism becomes a "myth." While many may claim to be moral relativists, their actions show they are not. In fact, their behavior shows them to be moral absolutists of a type, the very opposite of what they claim to be. And it is this point that I want to address in the remainder of this essay.

The self-proclaimed moral relativist does not and cannot maintain his or her commitment to the "philosophy" of moral relativism. In fact, the record clearly shows that these "moral relativists" are not relativists at all, but moral absolutists. This assertion is based on their behavior, not on their alleged support of a philosophical position. To wit:

  • Modern "liberal" political groups who promote "political correctness." These groups want to suppress what they consider to be offensive language and views. Most of these people claim to be moral relativists, yet they promote a doctrine that includes an "absolutist" program, that is, "statements that are politically incorrect must be eliminated or even made illegal." No relativism here.
  • Groups promoting "Multiculturalism." All the beliefs and practices of non-Western cultures must be considered as "good" regardless of the belief and practice, but Western civilization and the "white European" are evil and to be eliminated as soon as possible. No relativism here.
  • Pro-abortion groups. Claiming that morality is a matter of personal opinion, these groups are now attempting to legally quash any opposition to their position. They want "special protection" and do not want to confront any philosophical opposition. No relativism here.

The above are simply examples of "absolutist" behavior parading as moral relativism. But there is more. One of the most vocal and active groups to promote moral relativism in America is the so-called "Feminist Movement." Yet, even here, we find, not moral relativism as claimed, but moral absolutism. To wit:

  • The "Feminist Movement" says that the Taliban government in Afghanistan was "wrong" in its treatment of women. But, to be consistent, the feminists should say, it is after all just a "cultural" thing and we have no business judging the rightness or wrongness of Taliban culture.
  • The "Feminist Movement" labels child-adult sexual activity as "wrong," but, to remain consistent, it should say, it's merely a "personal" opinion. No one should be punished for engaging in such behavior.
  • The "Feminist Movement" should say, to be consistent, "rape" is really in the eye of the beholder. What is rape to one person is making love to another. It's a matter of one's point of view.

Now, the "Feminist Movement" is not going to take the moral relativist position; they will take the position of the moral absolutist, the very position they condemn in those who are not in agreement with their particular views. They will say:

  • The treatment of women by the Taliban is wrong and should be changed.
  • Child-adult sexual activity is wrong and should be criminally punished.
  • Rape is wrong, regardless of the perpetrator's opinion, and should be criminally punished.

None of the above judgments regarding a human act can be judged as right or wrong without appealing to some standard used as a criterion for judging the behavior. This standard, by its very nature, is "absolutist." Moral relativism cannot appeal to a standard, simply because "relativism" itself means there are no standards.

I could continue with many other examples of the "moral absolutist" masquerading as a "moral relativist." But brevity forbids it. And, besides, I want to make another important point. The pseudo-moral relativist (because that's what they really are!) do not really want to convince you that his or her philosophical position is correct or true by engaging in an intellectual discourse. Rather, in American society, the pseudo-moral relativist wants to appeal to the legislative bodies (Congress, et al) or the judiciary bodies (the Supreme Court, etc.) to have their "beliefs" encased in law. This means that what is "legal" is the same as what is "moral," and nothing else. And this is the final nail in the coffin of the moral relativist.
We are not talking about morality at all! We are talking about positive law. Morality or ethics has nothing to do with the situation. Positive law is now all that matters. Making some "human act" legal is to be distinguished from the "morality" of any human act. All we need to do, according to this philosophical position, is declare something to be "legal" and it is, ipso facto, "moral." This, by the way, is, in my opinion, the current state of affairs in American society today.

Okay, let us accept that for the sake of the current argument: What is "legal" is equivalent to what is "moral," as a defining example of moral relativism. The so-called moral relativist is dead in the water. Because if "legality" is to define "morality" then any outrage against such phenomena as the Nazi "Holocaust" or the attack on America by terrorists on September 11, 2001 or the "circumcision" of little girls in many black-African countries or the "abuse" of women in Taliban Afghanistan or the practice of owning black slaves in 19th-century America is misplaced and unfair. These are or were "legal." Therefore, according to the logic of this type of moral relativists, all these practices are or were "moral."
No moral relativist I am familiar with will accept the above. They will insist these are "evil" acts. But by what standards, or on what grounds, or by what criteria, if judging human acts is relative matter and there are no absolute standards that can be used to make a judgment? Either all moral principles are relative or there is at least one moral principle which is absolute, or, in the case of the logical positivists and some others, morality is simply a semantic game which has no real content (which is not at issue here since no one really believes that anyway, including the logical positivists who promoted it).

Now, let's get real. If moral relativists were really sincere in their beliefs, they could not condemn the following practices and would have to say...

  • Cannibalism is permitted if you think it is morally correct.
  • Raping two-year olds is acceptable if that is part of your cultural tradition.
  • Brutalizing your wife is understandable if that is part of your ethical system.
  • Castrating young boys is permitted for the sake of your cultural heritage.
  • Torture is a morally accepted part of your criminal justice system.
  • Human sacrifice is allowed as part of your religious system.
  • Certain groups defined as unwanted by your society can be destroyed.
  • There is no such thing as a war crime; it's in the eye of the beholder.
  • Adolf Hitler should not be judged as morally reprehensible since he was acting lawfully.
  • Josef Stalin was not acting immorally when he killed millions of innocent people.
  • The suicide bombers of September 11, 2001 were acting properly in their own interests.
  • Anything goes. Anything goes. Anything goes. We cannot judge.

There is no way the declared moral relativist can get around this issue. If there is not at least ONE absolute, objective standard or principle or proposition of moral philosophy or ethics, one that can be used to further develop a system of objectively-based moral philosophy, then "anything goes."

Finally, I get back to the initial position I was trying to argue. Moral or ethical relativism is a "myth." That is, no one really believes in moral relativism, in spite of what one might say. All one has to do is look at the "actions" of the moral relativist instead of concentrating on the beliefs espoused. Self-proclaimed moral relativists appear to be guilty of hypocrisy, saying one thing but practicing the opposite. And, finally, moral relativism is just another example of "intellectual insanity," the attempt to remake and reshape reality into what one wants it to be, rather than accepting reality as it is and dealing with it rationally.

There has to be at least ONE rational, objective standard by which human beings can judge the rightness, the correctness, or the appropriateness of human actions. There may be more, but there has to be at least one. It is the discovery of this rational, objective standard that is the object of what we call moral philosophy or ethics.

DOLHENTY ARCHIVE: The Myth of Moral Relativism
 
nameless
 
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 02:08 pm
@hue-man,
hue-man;64965 wrote:
The Myth of Moral Relativism
by Jonathan Dolhenty, Ph.D.

The purpose of this brief essay is to show that moral (or ethical) relativism is a philosophical myth that is accepted by no one who has critically examined its tenets and that those who claim to be moral relativists are really not.

Hahahaha... What a load of crap!
I'm aware that what I have just said is far from philosophy (perhaps the results of philosophy, 'critical thought'.
Everyone has an opinion or two, and this is his. Poorly grounded in science and certainly lacking in philosophical cognition.
The simple existence of 'relativists' both refutes his assertion and his arrogance in assuming that he knows what is in their minds and hearts better than they!
And that there is no 'choice/free-will' or 'objectivity' demonstrates his ignorance.
But he does demonstrate his 'beliefs'...
Pffft!
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 02:29 pm
@nameless,
What is a PhD doing writing this? What could his moral aim be?
 
Khethil
 
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 02:42 pm
@Holiday20310401,
I believe there might be one or two good points in there. But its couched in such angry, "God I'm Disgusted"-language that they're difficult to pick out. In short: Any good points he has lay harpooned-through by - what appears to be - a temper tantrum.

But this isn't why I want to reply: What struck me as most poignant about this essay is the use of the quotation mark to insinuate a measure of questionable-judgment when speaking of others' claims (didn't we just talk about this somewhere?).

For example: The "cat" walked across the "street" and said he was "happy":[INDENT] 1. This SUPPOSED cat might have REALLY been something else.
2. Yea, you call THIS a street? It's not a street... you called it that
3. Sure, he THINKS he is happy - but we know better
[/INDENT]I must say; although I too am likely guilty of this, I find it most unbecoming and a sure-fire way of turning off readers.

Just my two cents...
 
Bones-O
 
Reply Mon 25 May, 2009 02:58 pm
@hue-man,
Well, what does our thread author make of all this?
 
hue-man
 
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 08:18 am
@Bones-O,
I agree with most of what the author of the essay says. I don't know about his angry tone, as I didn't get that impression. The impression I got was that he thinks relativism is ridiculous, and that most people who accept the position aren't really relativists. In that sense, I agree with him because I've witnessed it plenty of times. Many people who don't seem to understand what morality is will say that morality is personal, individual, and preferential, but they wont hold that position in their actions or sentiments. A person who truly believes in relativism can easily be reduced to nihilism.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 08:36 am
@hue-man,
hue-man wrote:
I agree with most of what the author of the essay says. I don't know about his angry tone, as I didn't get that impression. The impression I got was that he thinks relativism is ridiculous, and that most people who accept the position aren't really relativists. In that sense, I agree with him because I've witnessed it plenty of times. Many people who don't seem to understand what morality is will say that morality is personal, individual, and preferential, but they wont hold that position in their actions or sentiments. A person who truly believes in relativism can easily be reduced to nihilism.


What the author argues is that people who espouse moral relativism act and say things inconsistent with their declared philosophical beliefs. So what? Many philosophers do that. Philosophers who declare that "time is not real" make appointments, and philosophers who declare that chairs, and tables, and vases, are not real, regularly sit on those very same chairs, and they place those unreal vases firmly on those unreal tables. And, furthermore, when that is pointed out, they don't think that what they do is inconsistent with what they say they believe is true. Even Einstein held that time is "only" in the mind, but he made appointments too.

Should we infer from this that philosophers are liars; that they are hypocrites; or that we need some investigation into the relation between philosophy and common sense and common human action?
 
hue-man
 
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 08:56 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:
What the author argues is that people who espouse moral relativism act and say things inconsistent with their declared philosophical beliefs. So what? Many philosophers do that. Philosophers who declare that "time is not real" make appointments, and philosophers who declare that chairs, and tables, and vases, are not real, regularly sit on those very same chairs, and they place those unreal vases firmly on those unreal tables. And, furthermore, when that is pointed out, they don't think that what they do is inconsistent with what they say they believe is true. Even Einstein held that time is "only" in the mind, but he made appointments too.

Should we infer from this that philosophers are liars; that they are hypocrites; or that we need some investigation into the relation between philosophy and common sense and common human action?


I hear what you're saying, but that's not the point. This contradiction must be embarrassing if the only excuse for it is that everyone is guilty of it.
 
Bones-O
 
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 11:01 am
@hue-man,
hue-man wrote:
I hear what you're saying, but that's not the point. This contradiction must be embarrassing if the only excuse for it is that everyone is guilty of it.


I just don't think that's true. If you recognise that your values, however passionately you endorse them, are simply yours and that others who disagree do have a point of view, you're a moral relativist. It goes without saying that even moral relativists think their morality is better than everyone else's.

The worst examples the author cited was stuff women's lib. I think this maybe why people found it angry. There's nothing contradictory about being a moral relativist and fighting for political change - in fact, it makes perfect sense. Why even bother having a personal morality if you're happy to live under somebody else's.

Finally, saying moral relativism is a myth based on the existence of people who don't live it because they don't believe it is absurd. That's like saying lesbians don't exist because Queen Victoria didn't believe they did. How about citing people who do practise moral relativism, such as anyone who engages in a moral debate who tries to understand the other person's point of view rather than just say: "This is right and so you are wrong!"

Ahem. Not in any way a reference to anything related to my recent exchanges on this forum.
 
amrhima
 
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 12:42 pm
@hue-man,
I totally disagree, the metaphysical fact that we can only see our perspective and not reality itself would mean that ethical relativism is true. How we conceptualize reality in order to understand it shapes our perspective of it, the feminist movement was right to say that if the concept of rape did not exist we might call the process a reproductive one that helps preserve the speices and there's no way on earth you can prove that this is wrong except by judging from our normal perspective. But from the philosophical rapist's perspective where he doesnt use the concept of rape YOU would be wrong.
This argument proves that an absolute moral code can not exist since it can only be thought of in the form of concepts, and thus it depends on the concepts you choose.
 
Khethil
 
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 12:46 pm
@hue-man,
hue-man wrote:
I agree with most of what the author of the essay says. I don't know about his angry tone, as I didn't get that impression. The impression I got was that he thinks relativism is ridiculous, and that most people who accept the position aren't really relativists. In that sense, I agree with him because I've witnessed it plenty of times. Many people who don't seem to understand what morality is will say that morality is personal, individual, and preferential, but they wont hold that position in their actions or sentiments. A person who truly believes in relativism can easily be reduced to nihilism.


I hope you'll excuse my editorial Hue; I'm just really tired of this "I'm pissed at the world-You're all Idiots"-tone so many posts seem to take these days. And yes, despite the essay's refreshing perspicuity there was for me the undeniable image of a diapered toddler, popsicle in hand, yelling at the mailman on his route...

As to the content: Yes... He presents a good case for those who believe there is no wrong or right - in any context - in our collective existence. But we need to make some very careful distinctions, lest we end up polarizing the issue unjustly. There is

  • What is Right and Wrong: Many believe objective morality exists; bestowed to us by virtue of this or that.
  • What I think is Right and Wrong: Just ask me, I'll tell you
  • Issues that I think everyone should see as Right and Wrong
  • Issues I think are so benign, so innocuous, that I'm not sure there is any right or wrong in them


  • Does this make me a moral absolutist? I don't know and don't care
  • Does this make me a moral relativist? I don't know and don't care

The label isn't important - the instant we apply labels to a ideal folks start taking sides, yet isn't life so much more complicated than to neatly-pigeon hole EVERYONE into these two distinct slots? I'm guessing that you, I and virtually everyone reading this believes there are just some things that *should* be universally right or wrong. I'm also guessing that all of us at this party believe there are those issues that just depend; that rightness can only be judged in the context of the action.

Yea, your author makes his point well - it's just that ethics is a messy, complicated business that's contingent on a myriad of factors. Our propensity - our need - to classify them into one or the other extremes seems to deny the most valuable lesson here: That the study of right and wrong requires us to abandon our camp-banners and think through the details.

I do appreciate your post - Ethics is always deserving of our attentions.

Thanks
 
hue-man
 
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 12:59 pm
@amrhima,
amrhima wrote:
I totally disagree, the metaphysical fact that we can only see our perspective and not reality itself would mean that ethical relativism is true. How we conceptualize reality in order to understand it shapes our perspective of it, the feminist movement was right to say that if the concept of rape did not exist we might call the process a reproductive one that helps preserve the speices and there's no way on earth you can prove that this is wrong except by judging from our normal perspective. But from the philosophical rapist's perspective where he doesnt use the concept of rape YOU would be wrong.
This argument proves that an absolute moral code can not exist since it can only be thought of in the form of concepts, and thus it depends on the concepts you choose.


Metaphysical naturalism logically concludes to ethical subjectivism, not moral relativism. There is a difference between the two, and I have stated it enough times already. Perspectivism is invalid for too many reasons to state here; yet another mistake that Nietzsche made. We can know that somethings are objective (independent of our minds for existence) and other things are subjective (dependent on our minds for existence). Truth and knowledge are practical concepts, and with that said I can positively state that the sun's existence is not dependent on my mind's perception of it. That is, however, another conversation that belongs in epistemology. Start a thread on perpespectivism and truth in the epistemology board if you like, but let's try and stick to the topic here.
 
amrhima
 
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 01:07 pm
@hue-man,
hue-man wrote:
Metaphysical naturalism logically concludes to ethical subjectivism, not moral relativism. There is a difference between the two, and I have stated it enough times already. Perspectivism is invalid for too many reasons to state here; yet another mistake that Nietzsche made. We can know that somethings are objective (independent of our minds for existence) and other things are subjective (dependent on our minds for existence). Truth and knowledge are practical concepts, and with that said I can positively state that the sun's existence is not dependent on my mind's perception of it. That is, however, another conversation that belongs in epistemology. Start a thread on perpespectivism and truth in the epistemology board if you like, but let's try and stick to the topic here.


I believe what I said is strongly related to the topic, imagine any ethical code, it would come in the form of concepts, and as such must be relative. Also, i would like to know what is wrong with prespectivism? I would answer your objection about the sun's existence but I don't want us to get carried away into metaphysics and epistemology.
 
hue-man
 
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 01:13 pm
@Khethil,
Khethil wrote:
I hope you'll excuse my editorial Hue; I'm just really tired of this "I'm pissed at the world-You're all Idiots"-tone so many posts seem to take these days. And yes, despite the essay's refreshing perspicuity there was for me the undeniable image of a diapered toddler, popsicle in hand, yelling at the mailman on his route...

As to the content: Yes... He presents a good case for those who believe there is no wrong or right - in any context - in our collective existence. But we need to make some very careful distinctions, lest we end up polarizing the issue unjustly. There is

  • What is Right and Wrong: Many believe objective morality exists; bestowed to us by virtue of this or that.
  • What I think is Right and Wrong: Just ask me, I'll tell you
  • Issues that I think everyone should see as Right and Wrong
  • Issues I think are so benign, so innocuous, that I'm not sure there is any right or wrong in them


  • Does this make me a moral absolutist? I don't know and don't care
  • Does this make me a moral relativist? I don't know and don't care

The label isn't important - the instant we apply labels to a ideal folks start taking sides, yet isn't life so much more complicated than to neatly-pigeon hole EVERYONE into these two distinct slots? I'm guessing that you, I and virtually everyone reading this believes there are just some things that *should* be universally right or wrong. I'm also guessing that all of us at this party believe there are those issues that just depend; that rightness can only be judged in the context of the action.

Yea, your author makes his point well - it's just that ethics is a messy, complicated business that's contingent on a myriad of factors. Our propensity - our need - to classify them into one or the other extremes seems to deny the most valuable lesson here: That the study of right and wrong requires us to abandon our camp-banners and think through the details.

I do appreciate your post - Ethics is always deserving of our attentions.

Thanks


I appreciate your response Khethil. You are very zen, and I know you can always sense frustration in the written word. The author didn't come across and disrespectful or very irate, and that's what matters to me the most.

Look, universalism simply considers the golden rule and treating people with equal consideration as the primary meta-ethical justification for a moral sentence. It doesn't make claims like "not wearing a scarf around your head is immoral". It doesn't ignore the fact that some values are relative, like that of religion, art, or even science. It simply says that some moral appetites are universal to people regardless of culture, society, or personal preference.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 04:12 pm
@hue-man,
Bones-O! wrote:
If you recognise that your values, however passionately you endorse them, are simply yours and that others who disagree do have a point of view, you're a moral relativist.


No - that is not the definition of moral relativism. Moral relativism is this: X is right/wrong if any only if Y believes so. X being a moral proposition, Y being either a group or individual.

A moral relativist knows something is right or wrong when (if he/she is a individual relativist, we can use P, a cultural relativist S): S/P believes something to be right/wrong.

Bones-O! wrote:
There's nothing contradictory about being a moral relativist and fighting for political change - in fact, it makes perfect sense. Why even bother having a personal morality if you're happy to live under somebody else's.


Actually, it is incoherent. According to moral relativism, moral improvement is impossible (see the definition above). Political change cannot be for the better (morally speaking) as something is only morally right/wrong in accordance with the individual/society's belief.

Bones-O! wrote:
How about citing people who do practise moral relativism, such as anyone who engages in a moral debate who tries to understand the other person's point of view rather than just say: "This is right and so you are wrong!"


I think that's the point of the essay: despite what people espouse, no one actually practices moral relativism.
 
Bones-O
 
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 04:57 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
No - that is not the definition of moral relativism. Moral relativism is this: X is right/wrong if any only if Y believes so. X being a moral proposition, Y being either a group or individual.

A moral relativist knows something is right or wrong when (if he/she is a individual relativist, we can use P, a cultural relativist S): S/P believes something to be right/wrong.


I wasn't giving a definition of moral relativism - take note. I was giving an example of where we might find one - pertinent to an essay that proves no-one believes in it by citing examples of it not being present. If you're a moral relativist, you reject the notion of absolute moral values without rejecting morality itself. In the context of individualist subjectivism, a moral statement tells you about the person making it. Naturally anyone interested in considering someone's contrary moral view is aware of this, as per my example!

Didymos Thomas wrote:

Actually, it is incoherent. According to moral relativism, moral improvement is impossible (see the definition above). Political change cannot be for the better (morally speaking) as something is only morally right/wrong in accordance with the individual/society's belief.


Actually it's not, as your own observation points out: "in accordance with the individual's belief". There is nothing contradictory about a moral relativist having a moral view and wanting their society to be that way. It makes perfect sense... to them. We might disagree, and they might know we disagree and know we disagree because of our moral laws, but that does NOT dictate that they must live in a society governed by those laws. (See Khethil's 3rd example above.)


Didymos Thomas wrote:
I think that's the point of the essay: despite what people espouse, no one actually practices moral relativism.

And that was the point of what Queen Victoria said: there's no such things as lesbians.
 
amrhima
 
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 05:25 pm
@hue-man,
To avoid nihilism is the goal of all people trying to refute moral relativism, they want a firm ground to stand on, and so they start with the end in mind and they try to simply justify it, which is a sick appraoch to philosophy. Sometimes the argument even takes the form "If relativism is true then we will all be nihilists, so realtivism cannot be true"....A philosopher or a philosophy scholar should have the courage to seek truth and the strength to endure it, which most people lack.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 05:31 pm
@Bones-O,
Bones-O! wrote:
I wasn't giving a definition of moral relativism - take note. I was giving an example of where we might find one - pertinent to an essay that proves no-one believes in it by citing examples of it not being present. If you're a moral relativist, you reject the notion of absolute moral values without rejecting morality itself. In the context of individualist subjectivism, a moral statement tells you about the person making it. Naturally anyone interested in considering someone's contrary moral view is aware of this, as per my example!


Yeah, I take note - your example of where to find a moral relativist might also lead us to something other than a moral relativist.

In any case, you said "If you recognise that your values...are simply yours and that others who disagree do have a point of view, you're a moral relativist."

It's an 'if... then' statement. If X, then Y. However, your X does not guarantee your Y.

Bones-O! wrote:
Actually it's not, as your own observation points out: "in accordance with the individual's belief". There is nothing contradictory about a moral relativist having a moral view and wanting their society to be that way. It makes perfect sense... to them. We might disagree, and they might know we disagree and know we disagree because of our moral laws, but that does NOT dictate that they must live in a society governed by those laws. (See Khethil's 3rd example above.)


You've missed the point. Moral relativism is incoherent because it cannot account for moral progress. A moral relativist cannot say that any moral laws are any more correct than any other moral laws because moral laws are only right/wrong as they are believed.

A moral relativist cannot, by definition, have a moral view and simultaneously demand that their view is right because, according to moral relativism, moral beliefs are only right in that someone believes them. A moral relativist is forced to admit that his moral beliefs are no better than anyone else's moral beliefs. They are relative to being believed.

Bones-O! wrote:
And that was the point of what Queen Victoria said: there's no such things as lesbians.


Except that Victoria had no argument to make. The author goes into a great amount of detail as to why he is right.

There are people who claim to be moral relativists, but the point is that espoused moral relativists are necessarily experiencing cognitive dissonance.

The author is not saying anything revolutionary - the incoherency of moral relativism is pretty well accepted in philosophy departments. It is a topic you might hear the first day of an Ethical Philosophy course - the lecturer takes point by point the incoherent nature of moral relativism.
 
Bones-O
 
Reply Tue 26 May, 2009 06:10 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:

It's an 'if... then' statement. If X, then Y. However, your X does not guarantee your Y.


Like I said, I was giving an example, not a one-to-one relationship.

Didymos Thomas wrote:
You've missed the point. Moral relativism is incoherent because it cannot account for moral progress. A moral relativist cannot say that any moral laws are any more correct than any other moral laws because moral laws are only right/wrong as they are believed.

A moral relativist cannot, by definition, have a moral view and simultaneously demand that their view is right because, according to moral relativism, moral beliefs are only right in that someone believes them. A moral relativist is forced to admit that his moral beliefs are no better than anyone else's moral beliefs. They are relative to being believed.


No, you've missed the point by a wide mark. I'm not saying an individual wishes the world to be as per their moral view because they're right, I'm saying it's because that's how they want it to be. Suffrage a case in point. A woman living in an oppressively male-centric society may well recognise that nothing is absolutely right or wrong, but also that for her and fellow women the situation is still simply bad.

Your argument gives rise to a complete contradiction: that a moral relativist should abide by what others think are moral absolutes, simply because the relativist's morals aren't absolute. That's clearly nonsense. I am quite capable of having a set of personal moral codes that I know don't apply universally and still act on them.

Didymos Thomas wrote:
Except that Victoria had no argument to make. The author goes into a great amount of detail as to why he is right.


Oh sure. My argument is there are no moral relativists. Here's some people who aren't moral relativists. Argument proven. Not rigorous enough for me, I'm afraid.

Didymos Thomas wrote:
There are people who claim to be moral relativists, but the point is that espoused moral relativists are necessarily experiencing cognitive dissonance.


Why? Because you can't comprehend it? What's cognitively dissonant about recognise that there are no moral absolutes, but there may be what's best for a given system of people espousing given local moral views in a given situation? Or simply what's best for me? It's really not that mind-blowing.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Wed 27 May, 2009 06:18 pm
@Bones-O,
Bones-O!;65165 wrote:
Like I said, I was giving an example, not a one-to-one relationship.


You made an 'if-then' statement which is false. I did not write that for you.

Bones-O!;65165 wrote:
No, you've missed the point by a wide mark. I'm not saying an individual wishes the world to be as per their moral view because they're right, I'm saying it's because that's how they want it to be. Suffrage a case in point. A woman living in an oppressively male-centric society may well recognise that nothing is absolutely right or wrong, but also that for her and fellow women the situation is still simply bad.


And where in this do you address the issue at hand? Where in this do you show moral relativism to be coherent? A moral relativist cannot argue that any given situation is any worse than another situation, morally speaking, because moral right/wrong is dependent on belief alone.

If the woman in your situation says that her condition is "simply bad" in some moral way, then the woman cannot be a moral relativist by definition, even if the person claims to be a moral relativist.

Bones-O!;65165 wrote:
Your argument gives rise to a complete contradiction: that a moral relativist should abide by what others think are moral absolutes, simply because the relativist's morals aren't absolute. That's clearly nonsense. I am quite capable of having a set of personal moral codes that I know don't apply universally and still act on them.


Yeah, I never said that a moral relativist should abide by what others think are moral absolutes - only that a moral relativist coherently cannot contest those beliefs.

Bones-O!;65165 wrote:
Oh sure. My argument is there are no moral relativists. Here's some people who aren't moral relativists. Argument proven. Not rigorous enough for me, I'm afraid.


And such a method would fail in my eyes as well. However, you have misrepresented the argument. You have built a straw man. Straw men are not rigorous enough for me, I'm afraid.

Bones-O!;65165 wrote:
Why? Because you can't comprehend it? What's cognitively dissonant about recognise that there are no moral absolutes, but there may be what's best for a given system of people espousing given local moral views in a given situation? Or simply what's best for me? It's really not that mind-blowing.


"that there are no moral absolutes" and "there may be what's best for a given system of people espousing given local moral views in a given situation or "simply what's best for me" is not moral relativism.

Moral relativism is the belief that X is morally right/wrong if and only if S/P believes so. S being a society P being a person, to account for the varieties of moral relativism.

Moral relativism is not simply the rejection of universal moral claims. Moral relativism contains a proposition for the evaluation of the rightness/wrongness of moral propositions.
 
 

 
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