World Nation or many nations?

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Binyamin Tsadik
 
Reply Thu 9 Oct, 2008 04:11 pm
@William,
William wrote:
No, my friend, it doesn't have to be respected. You could be a serial killer because that is "you". Should I respect that? I think not. Just because one thinks like they do, is not a "carte blanc" reason to respect how they think. Not by a long shot. It sounds good though. I'll give you that.

William



No one is a serial killer at heart. But I supose this should be a seperate thread. "The Essence of Self".
Your totalitarian approach to arguments is also not respected. Not everyone has to think like you. And let me hit you with a shocker
Wait for it...
You could be wrong sometimes.
I know I know.. it may be hard to beleive, but it's possible.
William is not the Judge, Jury, and Executioner of the entire world. He is not God, and I am entitled to my own oppinion.
And I have a nation that I very much love, and I will never leave it for any other nation, especially a so called "World Nation".
But I'll give you a flower for being an aggressive hippy.:flowers:
 
William
 
Reply Thu 9 Oct, 2008 04:59 pm
@boagie,
boagie wrote:
Blind nationalism has been the result of this kind of mentality in the past, a call to blind nationalism, my country right or wrong, is a call to relinquish ones humanity.


Would you please elaborate on what you mean by "blind nationalism".
Thanks,
William
 
William
 
Reply Thu 9 Oct, 2008 05:07 pm
@Binyamin Tsadik,
Binyamin Tsadik wrote:
No one is a serial killer at heart. But I supose this should be a seperate thread. "The Essence of Self".
Your totalitarian approach to arguments is also not respected. Not everyone has to think like you. And let me hit you with a shocker
Wait for it...
You could be wrong sometimes.
I know I know.. it may be hard to beleive, but it's possible.
William is not the Judge, Jury, and Executioner of the entire world. He is not God, and I am entitled to my own oppinion.
And I have a nation that I very much love, and I will never leave it for any other nation, especially a so called "World Nation".
But I'll give you a flower for being an aggressive hippy.:flowers:


If what I have highlighted is how you have interpreted my posts, then all I can say is thanks for the flower.:brickwall:

William
 
urangutan
 
Reply Fri 10 Oct, 2008 06:00 am
@William,
Binyamin Tsadik, I guess that minute is up and I think you need to realise I am not American. Now I know that in the land where I am, we have nothing in common with the naturalness that creates a nation, which is less than you could imagine in your passive, aggressive way and it is completely dissimilar to the land nation that I stand upon in abjection of inheritance. So unless that in some way you vaguely understand the full extent of my point, you may want to consider that as an opinion I may be correct. For as much as you consider that point where you live a nation, I consider this is not. I believe I can distinguish between the two and hence think what I do for a reason.
 
boagie
 
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2008 10:53 am
@William,
William wrote:
Would you please elaborate on what you mean by "blind nationalism".
Thanks,
William


William,Smile

It is really every simple, my country right or wrong, it killed 50 thousand young Americans and One million vietnamese during the Viet Nam war. It is to go to war for country, probable out of unawareness of the reality of the situtation. Most young men who go to war do not understand why they are going to war. Perhaps to find weapons of mass destruction, or just to secure oil resources. It is repeat throughout history, going to war in ignorance of the truth of the modivation of the adminstration of the country at the time of declared war, or even undeclared war.
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2008 11:03 am
@boagie,
Is blind nationalism even nationalism then, because if the underlying true reason is for the administration then it is not about living up to the nation as a whole, only a part of it.
 
boagie
 
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2008 11:13 am
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
Is blind nationalism even nationalism then, because if the underlying true reason is for the administration then it is not about living up to the nation as a whole, only a part of it.


Holiday,Smile

Yes, it is nationalism, blind nationalism just requires devotion not understanding, it is acting out of ignorance, true nationalism is sometimes called unpatriotic, because the indivdual questions the logic or the motivations of the administation and/or refuses to go to war.
 
Binyamin Tsadik
 
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2008 12:48 pm
@urangutan,
urangutan wrote:
Binyamin Tsadik, I guess that minute is up and I think you need to realise I am not American. Now I know that in the land where I am, we have nothing in common with the naturalness that creates a nation, which is less than you could imagine in your passive, aggressive way and it is completely dissimilar to the land nation that I stand upon in abjection of inheritance. So unless that in some way you vaguely understand the full extent of my point, you may want to consider that as an opinion I may be correct. For as much as you consider that point where you live a nation, I consider this is not. I believe I can distinguish between the two and hence think what I do for a reason.


You speak in riddles.

I lost track of what we were talking about..

For what reason do you think America could be considered a Nation in and of itself?
Because the modern definition of the word Nation is interchangeable with the word "country".
I agree that America is a country, but a Nation is something far deeper than a common land and government.
 
Khethil
 
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2008 02:32 pm
@Binyamin Tsadik,
Binyamin Tsadik wrote:
For what reason do you think America could be considered a Nation in and of itself?


Actually, there is no "America", though it's often used to describe the U.S. The "Americas" are 3 continents. If you're referring to Canada, the U.S.; Mexico or any individual nation-states organized from that continent; then yes, each one of those meets that definition. I've looked at several, here's one

I saw this same statement in yet another bitter-sounding post a ways back. Would you mind clarifying? You've got my curiosity.

Thanks

EDIT: Added clarification on the continents Smile
 
William
 
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2008 04:44 pm
@boagie,
boagie wrote:
William,Smile

It is really every simple, my country right or wrong, it killed 50 thousand young Americans and One million vietnamese during the Viet Nam war. It is to go to war for country, probable out of unawareness of the reality of the situtation. Most young men who go to war do not understand why they are going to war. Perhaps to find weapons of mass destruction, or just to secure oil resources. It is repeat throughout history, going to war in ignorance of the truth of the modivation of the adminstration of the country at the time of declared war, or even undeclared war.


Thank's Boagie,
I appreciate it. Had I said that, It would have been totalitarian. I have often heard people say "what we need is a benevolent dictator". The more I think about that the more it has credence. Sure, it is hard to imagine, but it is not as nonsensical as it sounds. The word "dictator" has such horrific connotations perhaps "overseer' would be more fitting. I am sure there is one among us who is worthy of such a role. Of course if history is any judge, the minute his identity is known, someone would kill him.

I have considered a "global consortium" not political in nature, but a gathering if you will of those who are leaders in their given fields such as agriculture, manufacturing, environment, distribution, travel, medicine, language, natural resources, geology, technology, human resources (labor) who could run the planet and devise a system to insure the equitable use of all the resources we have at our disposal.

Is population really a problem. I don't think so. Of the maps I have looked at, it seems most of the people of the Earth are gathered around "economic centers". Much of the land is uninhabited. I am not sure if it is because the land is environmentally "uninhabitable" or due to the inability to find income in those areas.

How limited are we? How much of "what we could do" is limited by "what we can afford to do"? As I have always said basing an economic system on objective rarity is absolute stupidity. It is the root of all our problems. Are we too greedy to give a damn?

William
 
Binyamin Tsadik
 
Reply Sat 11 Oct, 2008 05:29 pm
@Khethil,
Khethil wrote:
Actually, there is no "America", though it's often used to describe the U.S. The "Americas" are 3 continents. If you're referring to Canada, the U.S.; Mexico or any individual nation-states organized from that continent; then yes, each one of those meets that definition. I've looked at several, here's one

I saw this same statement in yet another bitter-sounding post a ways back. Would you mind clarifying? You've got my curiosity.

Thanks

EDIT: Added clarification on the continents Smile



I may be getting into trouble because I am translating the word from Hebrew.
The Hebrew word is "Goy".
Goy is most commonly translated as "Nation".
The first criteria for a Nation is a specific people.
This specific people must have a specific land
It must also have a specific language, dress, and names

I would say that U.S.A is made up of many different peoples but not a single people. Thus you could not categorize it as a Nation.

I could say that the Francs are a Nation, but France today is also made up of many different peoples, and so I couldn't call France a Nation.
I could say that the Germanic people are a Nation.
I could say that China is a Nation (however) because they are a specific people in a specific land.

So this thread about making one universal Nation cannot occur based on this definition.

Making one, big, world country would be a better title although I would still disagree because each Nation is unique and it is important that we learn to work together and work as one and still keep our separation. We can respect each other and not have a superiority complex one Nation to another without breaking down the National boundaries. We can have world peace without the John Lenon vision.

Each Nation must develop in its own way just as each one of us develops in our own way.

There is a classic analogy that I am fond of:
"Adam" in Hebrew is a name called on all of Mankind. Each nation is an organ within Adam. One Nation is a heart, another is the Liver. All of the Nations should work together just like all of the Organs in the body.
This is true unity and true globalization. The respect for differences and personal identity.
 
Khethil
 
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2008 05:03 am
@Binyamin Tsadik,
Binyamin Tsadik wrote:
The Hebrew word is "Goy".
Goy is most commonly translated as "Nation".
The first criteria for a Nation is a specific people.
This specific people must have a specific land
It must also have a specific language, dress, and names


Ah, so we're definitely talking about a language difference here. Interesting that translations work to hit close, though end up being very different.

Thank you for your clarification.
 
urangutan
 
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2008 09:47 pm
@Khethil,
Though by your definition Binyamin Tsadik, China is not a true nation as it is a peoples enforced to the one ideal, though different at different times, say as during the Ming Dynasty as compared to the Han. The field of what you call nations narrows with each description and interpretation of your definition. Clearly as you first described, I find the land upon which I live, not a nation. This I know but what I also know is, the United States is more like a nation than you would expect. We are all one people, one race, so you can throw that point out the door and try looking with your eyes open rather than squinting so as to peer through the shutters. One belief, well let's see. When in the history of the Americas was there one belief or come to that matter when in the history of Judaism was there one belief. So you can throw that point out the door. Francs a nation, let's break that down into Celtic heritage, Vandal Bastardisation, Roman equivelance, border variations and raids, probably leaves a community no bigger than a small town of the Mid West or a kibbutz in your neck of the woods. East, West, Nation, Country, these are all modern terms for Empire, Kingdom and Fiefdom, unless you consider that a nation begins with a community rather than a territory, you have gone off the rails. Try denying that of the United States. A community is a group that begin with the care of each other, it doesn't specify anything other than that. Belief and gender, inherited body conditions and things of this nature, don't enter into it. A select community can only build boundaries.
 
Binyamin Tsadik
 
Reply Mon 13 Oct, 2008 02:06 am
@urangutan,
urangutan wrote:
Though by your definition Binyamin Tsadik, China is not a true nation as it is a peoples enforced to the one ideal, though different at different times, say as during the Ming Dynasty as compared to the Han. The field of what you call nations narrows with each description and interpretation of your definition. Clearly as you first described, I find the land upon which I live, not a nation. This I know but what I also know is, the United States is more like a nation than you would expect. We are all one people, one race, so you can throw that point out the door and try looking with your eyes open rather than squinting so as to peer through the shutters. One belief, well let's see. When in the history of the Americas was there one belief or come to that matter when in the history of Judaism was there one belief. So you can throw that point out the door. Francs a nation, let's break that down into Celtic heritage, Vandal Bastardisation, Roman equivelance, border variations and raids, probably leaves a community no bigger than a small town of the Mid West or a kibbutz in your neck of the woods. East, West, Nation, Country, these are all modern terms for Empire, Kingdom and Fiefdom, unless you consider that a nation begins with a community rather than a territory, you have gone off the rails. Try denying that of the United States. A community is a group that begin with the care of each other, it doesn't specify anything other than that. Belief and gender, inherited body conditions and things of this nature, don't enter into it. A select community can only build boundaries.


I would say that America is a breakoff of the British Nation. I would still say that they are one and the same nation just made into seperate countries.
 
urangutan
 
Reply Mon 13 Oct, 2008 04:35 am
@Binyamin Tsadik,
We are a break off of England, though still tied through certain procedures, we are fundamentally Englishmen in the sun. My heriditry is not soley English and I can count numerous ways that the Americans have diversed from the English way, through defiance and in other ways. You notice they seem English because they are essentially modern. I mean no disrespect but your ancestry was not entirely of the land where you live. Could I venture a guess at saying they would have been part of the Eastern block of recent times. This is irrelevent of course, until you take a refrigerator to a farm village in middle Greece during the seventies. Modern, Western, English.

Now that statement is not a term reffering to similarities across the world. It is the timeline that represents the periods, where the other nations fell from the group. Modern now applies to this millenium, Western applied to post WWII and English died in the War to end all Wars. Could it not be said, of the nation that you inhabit, that it is part of your parents nation, brought back into your ancestors nation. Some language, some foods, some culture and some ideals. Is your nation what it was supposed to be. Is it more or even less.
 
Binyamin Tsadik
 
Reply Mon 13 Oct, 2008 04:52 am
@urangutan,
urangutan wrote:
We are a break off of England, though still tied through certain procedures, we are fundamentally Englishmen in the sun. My heriditry is not soley English and I can count numerous ways that the Americans have diversed from the English way, through defiance and in other ways. You notice they seem English because they are essentially modern. I mean no disrespect but your ancestry was not entirely of the land where you live. Could I venture a guess at saying they would have been part of the Eastern block of recent times. This is irrelevent of course, until you take a refrigerator to a farm village in middle Greece during the seventies. Modern, Western, English.

Now that statement is not a term reffering to similarities across the world. It is the timeline that represents the periods, where the other nations fell from the group. Modern now applies to this millenium, Western applied to post WWII and English died in the War to end all Wars. Could it not be said, of the nation that you inhabit, that it is part of your parents nation, brought back into your ancestors nation. Some language, some foods, some culture and some ideals. Is your nation what it was supposed to be. Is it more or even less.


It does not matter where I live or where I was born. I am a part of the Jewish Nation.
I could be given a Nationality (citizenship) for being born in a certain place. If the Nation accepts me as one of its members then I could be a member of that nation but I am first and foremost a member of the Jewish Nation.
Wagner said "It doesn't matter how German a Jew is, even if he composes German music better than Germans and acts more German than Germans. He will never truely be German."

Hitler based his whole campaign off of this. Ultimately Hitler did it in order to Massacre the Jews and take control of the world, but the premise still exists. Jews are part of the Jewish Nation and Germans are a part of the Germanic Nation.
 
urangutan
 
Reply Mon 13 Oct, 2008 05:17 am
@Binyamin Tsadik,
Do you think that the USA is made up of mostly British subjects. You are not listening to what you are being told. Everyone from Siberia through to Ireland, Norway down to the Cape of Good Hope and Japan straight to Lebanon have ancestors that have resided in the United States since the early nineteenth century. Now if you cannot grapple the concept of how similarities exist between you and others, pray tell me how you can signify the differences.

Frankly I don't give a fat rats what Wagner said of Jews or Germans for that matter. They were still believing that there were seperations of species in man at the same time. Do I take that as gospel too. Hitler pronounced a character that is greed and distaste, vengeful and spiteful, is that Germanic. Is that the Germanic peoples heritage, is it their soul, is it their nation. I could wonder whether you are in control of your senses, when you talk that way. I prefer however to believe you are mistaken with your definition of a Nation.
 
Binyamin Tsadik
 
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 03:45 am
@Binyamin Tsadik,
urangutan wrote:
Do you think that the USA is made up of mostly British subjects. You are not listening to what you are being told.


I know it's not made up of only people of British Origin.
I originally said


Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

Although America has all of those things it is closer to Rome. It is a Nation that adopts the cultures of the Nations that are around it.



I know that America is a country which has many nations within it. The large contingient of Irish, and Italian, and Spanish. I also know of the large amount of pakestani and Arabs and Indians. And of course all of the Chinese that built the Railroads and the Africans. There are many Nations within America and that is precicely why it cannot be called a Nation of its own right.

I was also playing off of you when I said British because you said

urangutan wrote:
We are a break off of England, though still tied through certain procedures, we are fundamentally Englishmen in the sun. My heriditry is not soley English and I can count numerous ways that the Americans have diversed from the English way, through defiance and in other ways. You notice they seem English because they are essentially modern.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 01:24 pm
@Binyamin Tsadik,
Quote:
I could say that China is a Nation (however) because they are a specific people in a specific land.


The modern state of China does not seem to fit your definition of nation. Modern China encompasses many different people, and occupies land that is not traditionally Chinese. Tibet is a great example.
 
Binyamin Tsadik
 
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 03:08 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
The modern state of China does not seem to fit your definition of nation. Modern China encompasses many different people, and occupies land that is not traditionally Chinese. Tibet is a great example.


And Mongolians, and Sanchurians
 
 

 
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