Cheats and Liars?

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blogbomber
 
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 12:58 pm
@sometime sun,
Is it possible to be too honest? Brutally honest, no sugar coating what your saying.
 
apehead
 
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 01:08 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;167734 wrote:
Is anything gained by deceptive means really worth having?

Define "deceptive means".

Quote:
What is the point in having something that is not really yours?
If you have something, then it must be yours.

Quote:
Is cheating and or lying a skill like any other and earning of what it brings?
Sure. I know people who are great liars, and some who are terrible. I don't quite understand the end of the sentence.

Quote:
Is the loss you bring to yourself by doing so outweighed by any actual or imaginary gain?
What do you think is lost by lying and cheating?

Quote:
Is lying or cheating worth anything in the short or long term?
I don't really understand this question. The acting individual is the only one capable of forming a value statement of an action based upon their goals.

Quote:
Can it bring true prosperity?
I think that depends what you mean by prosperity.
Quote:
What is the pointless? What is the loss?
Uh, what?
Quote:
What is the point? What is the gain?
The point of any action is to achieve a goal. What is gained/lost depends on the individual.

Quote:
Is the gain worth the loss?
Can you balance?
That's up to the acting party to decide.

Quote:
Is there such as a universal lie?
Don't quite understand this one.
 
platorepublic
 
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 02:12 pm
@sometime sun,
There are many things that are not worth having through a lot of means, including deception.

We should find out what means can allow us to gain what is worth having.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 08:21 pm
@LordScroop,
LordScroop;168973 wrote:
The Truth, the whole truth and nothing but the Truth, is boring.

This is a lie and is not fun, it may be funny but that is because it is a lie.
I would rather be boring and truthful than a liar and exciting.
You just haven't met the right truths yet they haven't met you yet. I assure When you do you will know the true full scale of excitement.

Can lies ever be entertaining?
Nothing but entertainment?
or ever even educational?

I am going to stick my neck out here and say I believe lies can lead to the truth.
Lies will all always be defeated.
Lies cannot last.
Lies are self destructive even if sadly they take some of the crowd with them.
The truth will always outlive all and end everything.
Eventually we will see that living by truth is prosperous because lies are disastrous.
In the end all there can be is truth.

---------- Post added 05-27-2010 at 03:41 AM ----------

Ding_an_Sich;168994 wrote:
Whatever the facts are (the atomic facts) must be true or false. What we say must correspond to reality. Lying is knowing the truth of a states of affairs but blatantly saying otherwise. We do it conciously (lying that is). Just because something is false doesnt mean that it is a lie. So it isnt an either/or dilemna. Choosing to cover up the truth and say something contrary to the truth is different from not knowing what the truth is and then finding out later that you were wrong (or that the fact was false).

Is this where DENIAL comes in?
What is denial? you can deny both truth and lies and still be wrong about both.
Ding_an_Sich;168994 wrote:

If I totld you 2+2=5 and was honest about it (meaning that I thought it was true) and then you told me otherwise, I wouldnt be lying. Lying deals with the intent, not with the facts themselves.

The truth of a liar is knowing he is lying.
Being wrong is not the same as a lie?
Being right is not the same as a truth?

Ding_an_Sich;168994 wrote:

At least I preserve my dignity when I tell the truth. I could care less if its boring.

What if (and I am not attacking you) what if 'dignity' is a lie?
Can you tell the truth by lying?
Rephrase;
Can you be righteously lying?
Rephrase; can something feel truthful but be a lie?
I am not sure where I am going with this, perhaps someone could consider for me if 'dignity' is a lie or a truth? And let me know what they come up with.
Perhaps; Can you tell a truth wrongly?

---------- Post added 05-27-2010 at 03:42 AM ----------

blogbomber;169138 wrote:
Is it possible to be too honest? Brutally honest, no sugar coating what your saying.

Is keeping the truth to yourself a lie?

Is there ever too much truth?

Does more truth lead to more lies?

Lies are always wrong.
Can truth ever be wrong.
(Refer back to 'wrong' think what wrong could be, it is not always a lie)

Lies are always wrong.
Wrongs are not always lies.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 08:43 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;168797 wrote:
Must everything then be either a lie or a truth? One or other?


What comes to my mind is metaphor. I always felt that this was the blind spot of logic. What is metaphor? Some have argued that metaphor is metaphysical, and others that metaphysics is metaphorical. I think they are both right, and that abstracts are ossified metaphors. For the most part. :flowers:

---------- Post added 05-26-2010 at 09:45 PM ----------

blogbomber;169138 wrote:
Is it possible to be too honest? Brutally honest, no sugar coating what your saying.


I think so. Let's say your friend presents you with a painting that you find atrocious...

Relationships are complicated...Smile
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 09:39 pm
@apehead,
apehead;169143 wrote:
Define "deceptive means".

By that which you are knowingly deceiving, by the action of deception
apehead;169143 wrote:

If you have something, then it must be yours.

Not necessarily if someone else has paid for it, not if it has come at the cost of truth. You may hold it you do not own it, it may even in fact now own you.
There are no spoils of war.
apehead;169143 wrote:

Sure. I know people who are great liars, and some who are terrible. I don't quite understand the end of the sentence.

Is there a consequence? Can there be a happy liar? Is this happiness ultimately just a lie?
apehead;169143 wrote:

What do you think is lost by lying and cheating?

More than what you paid.
More than you can fathom.
More than you.
apehead;169143 wrote:

I don't really understand this question. The acting individual is the only one capable of forming a value statement of an action based upon their goals.

Sooner or later truth will find you and you wont even be able to hold that as your own. So you must find truth.
Must truth only be sought and held for it to be a truth worth having or even giving?
apehead;169143 wrote:

I think that depends what you mean by prosperity.

The whole kingdom of or for or from it and the whole heaven of or for or from it.


apehead;169143 wrote:

Uh, what?

Are lies real?
Are they not insubstantial?
Do they not have no foundation at all?
Are lies a reality?
Are lies a reality real?
apehead;169143 wrote:

The point of any action is to achieve a goal. What is gained/lost depends on the individual.

Uh, what?
apehead;169143 wrote:

That's up to the acting party to decide.

No lie has ever been believed by its teller.
No lie can cost just its owner.
Else it is not a lie.
Every lie told steals from some one and gives to no one.
All lies steals from the pockets of truth.
Thankfully no truth will ever have empty pockets.
apehead;169143 wrote:

Don't quite understand this one.

Neither do I, that's why I asked it.

---------- Post added 05-27-2010 at 04:47 AM ----------

platorepublic;169176 wrote:
There are many things that are not worth having through a lot of means, including deception.

We should find out what means can allow us to gain what is worth having.

Can the lie be the search for truth?
Is not the truth always here (not just there) so how can there be anything other than truth unless we are all always lying?

Maybe the truth is not in not telling the lie maybe the truth is that there is no truth yet to tell?

---------- Post added 05-27-2010 at 04:48 AM ----------

I really hope you notice this.

---------- Post added 05-27-2010 at 04:51 AM ----------

Reconstructo;169375 wrote:
What comes to my mind is metaphor. I always felt that this was the blind spot of logic. What is metaphor? Some have argued that metaphor is metaphysical, and others that metaphysics is metaphorical. I think they are both right, and that abstracts are ossified metaphors. For the most part. :flowers:

The meta may lead to Truth but Truth is without the meta.

Or Truth is only the meta.

Which would you go with if you had to?
 
apehead
 
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 07:19 am
@sometime sun,
Whew... too poetic for me.
 
Ding an Sich
 
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 07:35 am
@apehead,
Lying simply deals with the intent. It does not deal with the facts themselves. If you are conciously trying to cover the truth up by fabrication, exaggeration, etc., then you are lying. As to whether the facts themselves are true or false is a different matter that deals with logic.

Give you an example: say I went down to the street corner and bought some heroin. I come home and my wife asks me where I was at. I tell her that I went to the grocery store. Now there is the possiblity that I was driving around in the cadillac or that I was on the street corner buying heroin. There is a possiblity to both. But this has nothing to do with the intent which comes from the 'I'. What I have done is this: I have stated that what was a state of affairs is not a state of affairs, and in so doing, as was my intent, I have distorted what was in actuality. What I actually did was go to the street corner and buy heroin, which was not the proposed states of affairs. My intent was to distort what actually happened. This is what lying does. It becomes a moral question then, because it deals with the "will".
 
mark noble
 
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 08:40 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;169375 wrote:

I think so. Let's say your friend presents you with a painting that you find atrocious...

Relationships are complicated...Smile


Hi Reconstructo,

You tell your friend it is atrocious. Being honest is paramount in a true friendship, or - It is not a true friendship!

I will never lie to anyone, friend or not.

Thank you Reconstructo, have a fantastic day.

Mark...
 
Chris uk
 
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 03:28 pm
@sometime sun,
I think this is a great topic thanks for posting it,
my view is,
A lie is a lie, this is most likely to be justified easily from the lier's point of view,
I think this must come from the persons lack of "worth" maybe "Pride" as a minimum most when not faced with the consequence of the lie being exposed wish it was true, and for those who are exposed have to voice justification, and wish it was never told.

embellish, exaggerate, little lie, fib, distort and mislead I feel are all simply Lies, if its not the truth in all good faith from your understanding, then it is a lie.

A good friend once asked me if I thought a lier was always a lier,
my response is yes!
the person may not be misleading at any given time however to have lied means your are a lier as you can not undo actions from the past and can only chose not to do them again.

thanks again for this post,
kind regards
Chris
 
Krumple
 
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 03:41 pm
@blogbomber,
blogbomber;169138 wrote:
Is it possible to be too honest? Brutally honest, no sugar coating what your saying.


I like questions like this.

Yeah I think you can, but there is an art to being direct and blunt without offending the person. Word choice, and delivery are key though other wise they will just look at it as a personal attack even when they know that what you say is true.

There is definitely an art to speaking your mind in a way that does not offend but doesn't wash out the truth at the same time.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 03:51 pm
@Chris uk,
Chris (uk);173066 wrote:
I think this is a great topic thanks for posting it,
my view is,
A lie is a lie, this is most likely to be justified easily from the lier's point of view,
I think this must come from the persons lack of "worth" maybe "Pride" as a minimum most when not faced with the consequence of the lie being exposed wish it was true, and for those who are exposed have to voice justification, and wish it was never told.

embellish, exaggerate, little lie, fib, distort and mislead I feel are all simply Lies, if its not the truth in all good faith from your understanding, then it is a lie.

A good friend once asked me if I thought a lier was always a lier,
my response is yes!
the person may not be misleading at any given time however to have lied means your are a lier as you can not undo actions from the past and can only chose not to do them again.

thanks again for this post,
kind regards
Chris

Once a teller of lies always a teller of lies.
But also this means.
Once a teller of truth always a teller of truth.

There must then be a word or term for someone who is a liar as well as truthful.

Has not everyone at least once told a lie?
One lie will cost you your title of truth teller for ever?
I think trust comes somewhere into this.
Is a liar always a liar always un trustful even if they have now the truth?
This goes some way into saying that the truth can never be held or be told by anyone who has ever lied.
In which case if all this holds firm I must admit I am a liar who knows truth.
 
Chris uk
 
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 04:16 pm
@Krumple,
I think the user of a Lie, is not necessary planing to malicious,
I work for the red-cross supporting the ambulance service where I have lied under some circumstances for example. I have had patients who are suffering from a Myocardial infarction (Heart Attack), I will be reasonable certain what is happening to the person however I will calmly suggest "it is most likely indigestion and nothing to worry about, but best get it checked anyway". this is in my opinion a lie. done because I feel better about the fact this could help save the persons life.
this however is still nothing more than a lie. as I know for the most part what I am faced with.


for profit. yes I feel better for it, justified in my mind. and if requestion by the person after the event would answer with the facts.

however I feel any event can be justified by a person, this will not and should not make it any less a lie.

thanks again
regards
Chris.

---------- Post added 06-04-2010 at 11:36 PM ----------

sometime sun;173081 wrote:
Once a teller of lies always a teller of lies.
But also this means.
Once a teller of truth always a teller of truth.

There must then be a word or term for someone who is a liar as well as truthful.

Has not everyone at least once told a lie?
One lie will cost you your title of truth teller for ever?
I think trust comes somewhere into this.
Is a liar always a liar always un trustful even if they have now the truth?
This goes some way into saying that the truth can never be held or be told by anyone who has ever lied.
In which case if all this holds firm I must admit I am a liar who knows truth.


I do not disagree with the line "once a teller of truth always a teller of truth"
unless they tell a lie, then they become a liar.
I think from a personal point of view this is all about trust the whole topic that is.
I think a Liar can definitely chose to not lie again, but the past action makes him a liar.

I have chosen to lie as I have mentioned in a post, I have also seen the disappointment in my daughters eye when I have told her Santa is a lie. I am by my own hand a liar, who talks truth also.
thanks
Kind Regards
Chris
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 10:13 pm
@Chris uk,
Chris (uk);173098 wrote:


I do not disagree with the line "once a teller of truth always a teller of truth"
unless they tell a lie, then they become a liar.
I think from a personal point of view this is all about trust the whole topic that is.
I think a Liar can definitely chose to not lie again, but the past action makes him a liar.

I have chosen to lie as I have mentioned in a post, I have also seen the disappointment in my daughters eye when I have told her Santa is a lie. I am by my own hand a liar, who talks truth also.
thanks
Kind Regards
Chris

I will give you a clearer reply tomorrow,
But this says to me on first glance that a lie is heavier and more 'real' than a truth.
Is not the truth more important and outweighing of lies and therefore if you tell lies and truth in equal measure the truth you tell is ultimately worth more and proves more than the worthless lies.
But what you are basically saying is that a lie is worth more and I would say I respect you integrity and intention but I so not agree with it.
If I cannot in my turn bring to light all the lies I have told and simultaneously uncovering and proving more truths and be worth more for this than the lies I ONCE told then there is little hope that the truth will ever be trusted by me as it is never going to be available or make me available for and to the truth.
Are you saying once a sinner their is no redemption?
Or are you possibly saying you can be a redeemed sinner but that is what you will always be a sinner who has redeemed?
 
wayne
 
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 01:33 am
@sometime sun,
As in the story of Huck Finn, the lie may be a bit like the difference between a good watchdog and a vicious beast, the difference is entirely which side of the fence you are on.
 
 

 
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