Cheats and Liars?

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Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 12:50 pm
Is anything gained by deceptive means really worth having?

What is the point in having something that is not really yours?

Is cheating and or lying a skill like any other and earning of what it brings?

Is the loss you bring to yourself by doing so outweighed by any actual or imaginary gain?

Is lying or cheating worth anything in the short or long term?

Can it bring true prosperity?

What is the pointless? What is the loss?

What is the point? What is the gain?

Is the gain worth the loss?
Can you balance?

Is there such as a universal lie?
 
mark noble
 
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 01:24 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;167734 wrote:
Is anything gained by deceptive means really worth having?

What is the point in having something that is not really yours?

Is cheating and or lying a skill like any other and earning of what it brings?

Is the loss you bring to yourself by doing so outweighed by any actual or imaginary gain?

Is lying or cheating worth anything in the short or long term?

Can it bring true prosperity?

What is the pointless? What is the loss?

What is the point? What is the gain?

Is the gain worth the loss?
Can you balance?

Is there such as a universal lie?


Hi Sun.

No lie is worth telling. As for universals, there are many... Santa is one - people tell their kids they love them, then they support it with the lie of Santa, when the kids grow, they have learnt that fibbing is acceptable, develop mistrust and disloyalty and pass it on to their's. This is one reason I don't do Xmas, and think it foolish of those that do...But, each to their own.

Shine on, Sun

Mark...
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 01:29 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;167734 wrote:
Is anything gained by deceptive means really worth having?



Of course it is, otherwise people would not do it. And lots of people get away with it. That is why we have prisons. So that not so many people will get away with it, and there is some chance of its not being worth having. Philosophers have argued, at least since the story of the ring of Gyges in Plato's Republic that the bad always suffer, and the good always make out just fine. But, as Miss Prism in Oscar Wilde's play, The Importance of Being Ernest wisely remarks to her innocent charge, Cecily, that the bad always suffer, but the good make out just fine is , "what fiction is all about".
 
mister kitten
 
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 01:38 pm
@sometime sun,
"Become good at cheating and you'll never have to become good at anything else."
-Banksy
 
xris
 
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 02:33 pm
@mister kitten,
If you have the ability to cheat and lie and find the success it may bring fulfilling , I dont understand you. You are beyond my comprehension. Am I stupid, are you really satisfied with your success? It separates us and I will never be able to understand you.

I recently came across such a man. He claimed to be a soldier serving in Afghanistan and he was collecting for the injured soldiers. By talking to him I quickly realised he was lying. I looked into his eyes in disbelief , wanting to see in his eyes a glimmer of why he would think it acceptable ,this lie for money. I thought I saw an inability to reason or have feelings for others. I am afraid anger took over my disbelief and I acted as is my weakness with violence. My violence and his deceit on a road to Truro.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 03:12 pm
@mark noble,
mark noble;167742 wrote:
Hi Sun.

No lie is worth telling. As for universals, there are many... Santa is one - people tell their kids they love them, then they support it with the lie of Santa, when the kids grow, they have learnt that fibbing is acceptable, develop mistrust and disloyalty and pass it on to their's. This is one reason I don't do Xmas, and think it foolish of those that do...But, each to their own.

Shine on, Sun

Mark...

Agreed lies should not be tolerated no matter the 'joy' they bring.
If not for the very fact that telling them becomes synonymous with 'joy'.
The easy enjoyable lie.
I am trying to be a Christian at present but previously on the sometime show I was a Pagan so actually used to celebrate Yule, but even now as a wannabe Christ child I find Christmas a little funny as it is not His actual birthday. I tend toward being more Jehova Witness than any of the other churches, at least in theory. But do still now burn Myrrh and Frankincense on Christmas eve.

---------- Post added 05-23-2010 at 10:17 PM ----------

kennethamy;167744 wrote:
Of course it is, otherwise people would not do it. And lots of people get away with it. That is why we have prisons. So that not so many people will get away with it, and there is some chance of its not being worth having. Philosophers have argued, at least since the story of the ring of Gyges in Plato's Republic that the bad always suffer, and the good always make out just fine. But, as Miss Prism in Oscar Wilde's play, The Importance of Being Ernest wisely remarks to her innocent charge, Cecily, that the bad always suffer, but the good make out just fine is , "what fiction is all about".

What are they getting away with?
The good are not the ones lying though, so they get away without having to tell them in first place.
Infinitely more self respect and worth is what makes freedom so valuable.
What is worth really worth?

---------- Post added 05-23-2010 at 10:25 PM ----------

"The truth is rarely pure and never simple" O.W

---------- Post added 05-23-2010 at 10:38 PM ----------

xris;167760 wrote:
If you have the ability to cheat and lie and find the success it may bring fulfilling , I dont understand you. You are beyond my comprehension. Am I stupid, are you really satisfied with your success? It separates us and I will never be able to understand you.

I recently came across such a man. He claimed to be a soldier serving in Afghanistan and he was collecting for the injured soldiers. By talking to him I quickly realised he was lying. I looked into his eyes in disbelief , wanting to see in his eyes a glimmer of why he would think it acceptable ,this lie for money. I thought I saw an inability to reason or have feelings for others. I am afraid anger took over my disbelief and I acted as is my weakness with violence. My violence and his deceit on a road to Truro.

What about if you were never to have known he was lying and you donated some money, would your charity be a lie?
Do you think he was trying to make liars of others or just himself?

(I will be going through Truro seeking truth myself this summer)

---------- Post added 05-23-2010 at 10:44 PM ----------

Is God a universal truth or universal lie?

---------- Post added 05-23-2010 at 10:48 PM ----------

mister kitten;167746 wrote:
"Become good at cheating and you'll never have to become good at anything else."
-Banksy

Do you see this as an endorsement or as a condemnation?
 
mark noble
 
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 04:17 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;167777 wrote:
Agreed lies should not be tolerated no matter the 'joy' they bring.
If not for the very fact that telling them becomes synonymous with 'joy'.
The easy enjoyable lie.
I am trying to be a Christian at present but previously on the sometime show I was a Pagan so actually used to celebrate Yule, but even now as a wannabe Christ child I find Christmas a little funny as it is not His actual birthday. I tend toward being more Jehova Witness than any of the other churches, at least in theory. But do still now burn Myrrh and Frankincense on Christmas eve.

?


Hi Sun,

Christ does not teach one to celebrate christmas, lapsed or misled christians do. There are "christians" who attend church on Sundays, arriving in porsches and mercedes, dripping in gold and made-up to the nines, believing they've pre-booked all the front row seats in heaven. And there are Christians who follow Christ to the letter and dedicate their every breath to BEING and DOING as Christ, in Christ.
You have one of the latter on this forum (Mark Gamson), would you like an introduction?

Even an exaggeration is a lie.

Thank you Sun, Shine On.

Mark...
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 04:29 pm
@mark noble,
mark noble;167799 wrote:
Hi Sun,

Christ does not teach one to celebrate christmas, lapsed or misled christians do. There are "christians" who attend church on Sundays, arriving in porsches and mercedes, dripping in gold and made-up to the nines, believing they've pre-booked all the front row seats in heaven. And there are Christians who follow Christ to the letter and dedicate their every breath to BEING and DOING as Christ, in Christ.
You have one of the latter on this forum (Mark Gamson), would you like an introduction?

Even an exaggeration is a lie.

Thank you Sun, Shine On.

Mark...

Yes please I would like an introduction, could even get a Bible study group up and running, I don't study my Bible nearly enough.

By exaggerating the truth are we not making it larger?Smile
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 04:35 pm
@sometime sun,
Movies & TV: See all 32 items

2.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516KV2XpqAL._SL160_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-dp,TopRight,12,-18_SH30_OU01_AA115_.jpg
The Talented Mr. Ripley by Patricia Highsmith (Paperback - June 17, 2008)

Also, a great movie and DVD with Matt Damon.

If you have not read it, or seen the movie, rush.
 
mark noble
 
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 04:40 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;167803 wrote:
Yes please I would like an introduction, could even get a Bible study group up and running, I don't study my Bible nearly enough.

By exaggerating the truth are we not making it larger?Smile


Hi Sun,

Will Do, I'm in work with him on Tuesday. He'll be pleased to make your acquaintance. The friend of my friend is my friend.

By exaggerating the truth, we are lying.

Shine on, Sun, and the world will too.

Mark...
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 04:42 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;167805 wrote:
Movies & TV: See all 32 items

2.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516KV2XpqAL._SL160_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-dp,TopRight,12,-18_SH30_OU01_AA115_.jpg
The Talented Mr. Ripley by Patricia Highsmith (Paperback - June 17, 2008)

Also, a great movie and DVD with Matt Damon.

If you have not read it, or seen the movie, rush.

Have seen the movie.
What's the hurry?
Perhaps you could do a review in the film group?
(A lie is the first step towards murder)

---------- Post added 05-23-2010 at 11:56 PM ----------

mark noble;167808 wrote:
Hi Sun,

Will Do, I'm in work with him on Tuesday. He'll be pleased to make your acquaintance. The friend of my friend is my friend.

By exaggerating the truth, we are lying.

Shine on, Sun, and the world will too.

Mark...

My friend is my friend.

Can a lie ever be diminished into a truth?
 
mark noble
 
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 06:55 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;167809 wrote:

Can a lie ever be diminished into a truth?


Hi Sun,

Lost my connection and my port for a while.
No! A lie IS a lie.

Mark...
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 09:02 pm
@mark noble,
mark noble;167846 wrote:
Hi Sun,

Lost my connection and my port for a while.
No! A lie IS a lie.

Mark...

Can a lie lead to a truth?
Can a lie set you up for the truth?
Are all lies all always useless?
 
mister kitten
 
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 10:00 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;168383 wrote:
Can a lie lead to a truth?
Can a lie set you up for the truth?
Are all lies all always useless?


In The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, by Mark Twain, Huck lies many times to protect his slave-friend Jim from being brought back into slavery.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Mon 24 May, 2010 10:04 pm
@mister kitten,
mister kitten;168392 wrote:
In The Adventures of Huckleberry Fin, by Mark Twain, Huck lies many times to protect his slave-friend Jim from being brought back into slavery.

So can the lie protect?
Even if you are protected from the truth can the lie not save your existence?
Is truth always worth dying for if the lie could ultimately save your life?

---------- Post added 05-25-2010 at 05:25 AM ----------

Is not the price of a lie worth a life?
Or is total life at NO cost?

Good point and question mister kitten; what is the price of lying for something or one else? Do they pay or does the liar?

Are we not all slaves to or for something? do we not at least need the lie of freedom?
Or is that a catch 22?
How can you set something free by locking it away?
 
mark noble
 
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 08:55 am
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;168393 wrote:
So can the lie protect?
Even if you are protected from the truth can the lie not save your existence?
Is truth always worth dying for if the lie could ultimately save your life?

---------- Post added 05-25-2010 at 05:25 AM ----------

Is not the price of a lie worth a life?
Or is total life at NO cost?

Good point and question mister kitten; what is the price of lying for something or one else? Do they pay or does the liar?

Are we not all slaves to or for something? do we not at least need the lie of freedom?
Or is that a catch 22?
How can you set something free by locking it away?


Hi Sun,

Good point raised by Mr Kitten there. Ultimately a Lie is a lie, it can be used to protect, save and nurture life.
It is your God you have to answer to, and this is why Christ awards His followers with the act of repentance.

Have a great day both.

Mark...
 
Ding an Sich
 
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 10:08 am
@mark noble,
mark noble;168576 wrote:
Hi Sun,

Good point raised by Mr Kitten there. Ultimately a Lie is a lie, it can be used to protect, save and nurture life.
It is your God you have to answer to, and this is why Christ awards His followers with the act of repentance.

Have a great day both.

Mark...


Agreed. A lie cannot go from being what it is (a lie) to the truth. It would have to be something other than the lie. In essence, there are no degrees of truth. Doing so destroys the way we use lying and telling the truth. It either is the case or its not.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Tue 25 May, 2010 04:50 pm
@Ding an Sich,
Ding_an_Sich;168595 wrote:
Agreed. A lie cannot go from being what it is (a lie) to the truth. It would have to be something other than the lie. In essence, there are no degrees of truth. Doing so destroys the way we use lying and telling the truth. It either is the case or its not.

Must everything then be either a lie or a truth? One or other?
 
LordScroop
 
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 04:04 am
@sometime sun,
The Truth, the whole truth and nothing but the Truth, is boring.
 
Ding an Sich
 
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 06:20 am
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;168797 wrote:
Must everything then be either a lie or a truth? One or other?


Whatever the facts are (the atomic facts) must be true or false. What we say must correspond to reality. Lying is knowing the truth of a states of affairs but blatantly saying otherwise. We do it conciously (lying that is). Just because something is false doesnt mean that it is a lie. So it isnt an either/or dilemna. Choosing to cover up the truth and say something contrary to the truth is different from not knowing what the truth is and then finding out later that you were wrong (or that the fact was false).

If I totld you 2+2=5 and was honest about it (meaning that I thought it was true) and then you told me otherwise, I wouldnt be lying. Lying deals with the intent, not with the facts themselves.

---------- Post added 05-26-2010 at 08:21 AM ----------

LordScroop;168973 wrote:
The Truth, the whole truth and nothing but the Truth, is boring.


At least I preserve my dignity when I tell the truth. I could care less if its boring.
 
 

 
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