Forgiveness

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Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 06:39 pm
I've been wanting to open a thread on forgiveness for a long time. Here goes-

Is forgiveness necessary? Why?
When should we forgive a person who has wronged us?

If a person who has wronged us does the wrong unknowingly should we forgive him/her? Bring light to his/her ignorance? Can we bring that light only through forgiveness?
If a person who has wronged us does the wrong knowingly should we forgive him/her?
Which is easier? Should they require the same difficult? Any difficulty at all?

Or is this thread so far hogwash? Are grudges the way to go? Never forgive?
 
salima
 
Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 07:01 pm
@mister kitten,
think of what benefit it is not to forgive anyone-you can learn from a person who has done a wrong to you (or to someone else) and change your behavior, protect yourself, bring them to book etc...but forgive them at the same time.

i really do believe that no one means to hurt another-they are only hurting more inside even if they deny it themselves

holding a grudge, just like hate, only hurts the one who holds it
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 07:15 pm
@mister kitten,
Even if a person has a consciously selfish attitude, forgiveness is still arguably justified. Because a grudge is generally associated with an inferior mood. Anger, fear, envy...all of these take from our enjoyment of life. The "mortal sins" are generally just things that make us feel less alive?
 
wayne
 
Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 10:13 pm
@mister kitten,
Many years ago I listened to a sermon that gave an interesting perspective on things like forgiveness. The speaker gave a list of what he called fixed points, things that were always right. I don't remember all of them but forgiveness stuck in my mind.
When I really think about it the idea seems sound.
Forgiveness is , I think, a state of mind, necessary for us to grow beyond the wrongs that are done us. Justice is a separate issue and may even serve it's purpose better through forgiveness.
By seeing forgiveness as being always right, we are able to complete the grieving process and continue to grow emotionally.

There is the old adage that while you are home nursing a grudge, the other party is out dancing.
 
Gnostic
 
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 12:33 am
@mister kitten,
mister kitten;167120 wrote:
I've been wanting to open a thread on forgiveness for a long time. Here goes-

Is forgiveness necessary? Why?


No but neither is honesty. It is the right thing to do however.

mister kitten;167120 wrote:

When should we forgive a person who has wronged us?


All the time.

Okay admittedly this is not easy, especially if the person who wronged us is very close to us. But that of course changes nothing.

mister kitten;167120 wrote:

If a person who has wronged us does the wrong unknowingly should we forgive him/her? Bring light to his/her ignorance? Can we bring that light only through forgiveness?


1. Of course.
2. If we can in a beneficial way.
3. Of course not, we can bring it about in the wrong way. There are people who justify their harsh words by noting they are telling the truth, but truth is worthless unless it is accompanied with truth. The truth can be used to destroy people (ie for evil).

mister kitten;167120 wrote:

If a person who has wronged us does the wrong knowingly should we forgive him/her?


I would actually argue that this is impossible. I take Plato's position: "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance."

In other words, you can only do evil if you are in ignorance.

mister kitten;167120 wrote:

Which is easier? Should they require the same difficult? Any difficulty at all?


Another good question. It reminds me when you do good for those society deems worthy of blessing. It is an easy thing to do no?

But when we do good for evil people or people who wronged us personally it seems to be very hard (if we do it at all). And when we do good for those unworthy we tell ourselves in an indignant manner, "I am doing this for you even though you would would never do it for me!".

However I believe this is an imbalance. We need to find a way for there to be no difference in the two situations. It needs to be as easy to help those who are 'worthy' as it is to help those who are not.

mister kitten;167120 wrote:

Or is this thread so far hogwash? Are grudges the way to go? Never forgive?


What do we call it? Holding a grudge.

So we already know that it is a burden we are carrying, and it is a heavy one indeed. You cannot have peace in your life with a burden on your shoulders.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 05:12 am
@Gnostic,
Gnostic;167205 wrote:
In other words, you can only do evil if you are in ignorance.


Aha! You are gnostic.
 
TheSeaErskine
 
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 05:38 am
@mister kitten,
Forgiveness is not always the most natural remedy, it comes from a cognitive process where reason and logic are delicately balanced with emotion. It takes great strength.
But in a world without forgiveness, would every wrong-doing escalate to a point where we topple the balance? Would the anger grow until we are consumed by the persuit of a disproportionate justice?
We need to be able to forgive at some level to keep a sense of equilibrium. And to keep from destroying ourselves.
 
William
 
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 05:54 am
@mister kitten,
mister kitten;167120 wrote:
Is forgiveness necessary? Why?


That depends on whether you can forgive yourself......first. That's were it begins. Are you humble enough to recognize your own faults? If you will not do that, there is no way you can forgive others. It is common understanding when most forgive they are doing it to protect themselves from retaliation from others who they think imposed a falsehood on them; said or did something that was offensive that was in defense of themselves.

To forgive one must first have a kindness or respect of ones self owing/conferring to themselves the fact that they have wrong others too. It's a balancing process not an act. If one is indeed acting for selfish reasons they begin to carry a load/burden and become weighted down. The conscience is like a huge oak tree; when we deny our ignorance and accuse others, a chipping away of that oak tree begins and if done often enough it will surely fall. No one is that perfect in and of themselves. No one to accuse anyone of anything.

mister kitten;167120 wrote:
When should we forgive a person who has wronged us?


ASAP, ha! There is a natural/divine justice! Whether you believe that or not, just know that there is. If you don't then that is your misfortune. We commonly say "what goes around comes around". If we only knew how so very accurate that statement is.

Have you ever said to another or someone has said to you, "You need to fix that?" Ha! Ring a bell? The common responses are "Fix it yourself or when I get around to it"! Zig Ziglar, a motivational speaker and another "salesman" whom I respect offered he carried with him a wooden nickel with the letters "TUIT" written on it. He would give that to a person when they used the second excuse. So to answer your question, "now is as good a time as any". To err is human, to forgive is divine.

The fact is, Mister Kitten, it's like the phrase "I love you"; when we say things like I'm sorry, please forgive me or excuse me, we say those things so much and we become so familiar with saying them, we lose to true meaning of what we are saying. It's more of a habit than anything else.

mister kitten;167120 wrote:
If a person who has wronged us does the wrong unknowingly should we forgive him/her? Bring light to his/her ignorance? Can we bring that light only through forgiveness?


No! Remember the natural justice. They will eventually find that light themselves as their load/weight burdens them. If you try to do it yourself, that only makes matters worse. Most offenses are due to an ignorance or an unknowing and the conscience then awakens and they will forgive themselves..................eventually as they will run out of excuses. Their rationalizations will come to an end. Don't take it upon yourself to try to bring the light to them unless you have an understanding that is uncommon to most and can do it most effectively that will affect their thinking!

Let me offer it this way; when we "tell" someone something, do we have the right to do that? Do we know so much that what we tell is the truth?

mister kitten;167120 wrote:
If a person who has wronged us does the wrong knowingly should we forgive him/her?


You mean maliciously, right? If that were so your forgiveness gives them license to do it again, huh! Maliciousness comes from a cold darkness that covers the conscience and in effect tell's it to "shut up", ha! The ego does that all the time defending it's self. Let's whisper here, those so egotistical might hear us, ha! If they do they will surely come out screaming, ha! They will use erroneous analogies owing to never forgiving as they will offer extreme cases such a rape and abuse to defend themselves overlooking the many subtle ways they offend and attack. Let's see what happens, ha!

Perhaps I am rare and unique in that in all my life I have never known anyone who was offended so harshly that can be said that it was malicious. It is my humble understanding that in so many cases those that were, in some way "asked" for it. It is my belief the truly innocent could never be. I could be wrong. I would like to hope that I am not.

mister kitten;167120 wrote:
Which is easier? Should they require the same difficult? Any difficulty at all? Or is this thread so far hogwash? Are grudges the way to go? Never forgive?


I think that is not the way to go. I hope I have offered why!?

I think you will find we are all going through a "purification process" in that we must forgive ourselves for all the wrongs we have committed in our past as we begin to understand no one is so innocent in the overall picture and we are all guilty of selfishness. Our surviving from one another rather than living with one another as we will learn it is not the "survival of the fittest" and we are not animals as some profess us to be and we will learn together what it is to be truly human. That is a wish that I surely hope comes true someday, ASAP. Let us all help each other get "A ROUND TUIT". So we can get "in tuit", this thing we call life.

William
 
mark noble
 
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 10:23 am
@William,
Hi All

"You who have no sin, cast forth your stones" " Jesus.
"You who cannot forgive, are forgiven" Me.

Thank you, Have a wonderful existence.

Mark...
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 11:49 am
@mister kitten,
mister kitten;167120 wrote:
I've been wanting to open a thread on forgiveness for a long time. Here goes-

Is forgiveness necessary? Why?
When should we forgive a person who has wronged us?

If a person who has wronged us does the wrong unknowingly should we forgive him/her? Bring light to his/her ignorance? Can we bring that light only through forgiveness?
If a person who has wronged us does the wrong knowingly should we forgive him/her?
Which is easier? Should they require the same difficult? Any difficulty at all?

Or is this thread so far hogwash? Are grudges the way to go? Never forgive?
First off, some recive forgiveness when they shouldn't because they have the power to manipulate others, or have such great status that we forgive them.
Others revice no firgiveness even though they should, but because they are outcasts, or have committed many misdeeds that we no longer care.

- sometimes we should forgive for the greater good
- we should forgive to allow better things to prosper
- we should fortive because grudge is a huge gap for love, buisness, art, politics ..etc.

- we shouldn't forgive those who abuse our forgiveness
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 08:35 pm
@HexHammer,
All I can add at present is that I think the more one recognises they are in need of forgiveness the more they are willing and abled to forgive others.
This may sound selfish but it is not because to understand any thing of what forgiveness is needed for means becoming selfless.
You cannot fake a need to get or to give forgiveness.
Is it ever easy?
No because to be selfless is not easy. (Or shouldn't be?)
All I think is that it is easier to forgive others than it is to forgive yourself. (Or should be?)

I am not of the mind that if you see what you need forgiveness for you can forgive yourself.
It is something you need spend your dying breath trying to prove you are worth enough for that of another's forgiveness and if you see this you can only come to accept in death you may be forgiven but must spend your entire life proving you are worth your death and your eternity.

Any one who is ever truly sorry for anything will only ever know the true meaning of that word sorrow.

At some point absolution if at all possible may actually require at the least God to forgive or absolve you.
Absolution is only Gods. (what is God?)
But I am not sure absolution is the same as forgiveness?
They don't say forgive and forget as a combination for nothing. This is absolution.
Which only means when earnest death comes and life is spent, then and only then there is a possibility of forgetfulness/absolution.

Forgiveness is possible in life (I know, I have), absolution is not (I know, I cant).
Not lest until we can hear from God what lesson was trying to be taught by the need to have something sinned against in the first place.

I will say and trust;
'not anything is not forgiveable',
just must always earn it and always prove its worth always.

Forgiveness is the most expensive and dear action of any mankind.
Else it is worthless.

So ask your self truthfully;
'can I be afforded, can I afford?'
'can I be afforded by can I afford?'
'can I be afforded it by affording it?'

Because you cannot just afford it by just being afforded it.
 
Dosed
 
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 09:44 pm
@mister kitten,
I don't believe that forgiveness is by any means necessary.
I also don't believe that forgiveness is always "the right thing to do," as morals can be subjective.
I believe that forgiveness is dependent on feelings and attitudes toward an act that has been committed upon someone by another. It is difficult to control feelings. Because it is based on feelings, which are subjective, I have to say that forgiveness is subjective as well. It is dependent upon the circumstance and the individual.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sat 22 May, 2010 10:15 pm
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;167355 wrote:
First off, some recive forgiveness when they shouldn't because they have the power to manipulate others, or have such great status that we forgive them.
Others revice no firgiveness even though they should, but because they are outcasts, or have committed many misdeeds that we no longer care.

- sometimes we should forgive for the greater good
- we should forgive to allow better things to prosper
- we should fortive because grudge is a huge gap for love, buisness, art, politics ..etc.

- we shouldn't forgive those who abuse our forgiveness


I think you raise a very good issue. Even if we forgive on a personal level, what should the law do? We can't let murderers or rapists roam the streets. That's a tricky question. The question also relates to the relationship between nations. Can a nation afford to be forgiving with a Hitler at it's borders? Of course a nation can refrain from starting wars.

I do think forgiveness is a valid ideal. And yet I'm sure I would use violence without restraint against anyone who physically threatened my loved ones. I don't think individuals (or nations) ever manage to maintain this ideal state, with the exception of some isolated monks, perhaps. And perhaps practical life even demands a certain compromise. Still, the idea is deep.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 12:21 am
@Dosed,
Dosed.;167505 wrote:
I don't believe that forgiveness is by any means necessary.
I also don't believe that forgiveness is always "the right thing to do," as morals can be subjective.
I believe that forgiveness is dependent on feelings and attitudes toward an act that has been committed upon someone by another. It is difficult to control feelings. Because it is based on feelings, which are subjective, I have to say that forgiveness is subjective as well. It is dependent upon the circumstance and the individual.
Interesting, so you are ruled by emotion? It is my understanding, that people who are ruled by emotion, often ends up in fights.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 12:35 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;167578 wrote:
Interesting, so you are ruled by emotion? It is my understanding, that people who are ruled by emotion, often ends up in fights.

I am not sure you just said this but I would concur that forgiveness only has only one real emotion (if even this) and that is compassion, compassion for your self and compassion for others.
Forgiveness cannot be certain if ruled by unsure emotions.
Forgiveness is never subjective.
It is decisive and divisive.

Once given received it can never nor will ever be taken back or given away.
 
Soul Brother
 
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 12:40 am
@sometime sun,
It has been said that forgiveness need not be either necessary, nor the right thing to do as the "moral" rationale which is often applied for the appropriate justification of forgiveness is that of a subjective nature. Although this can be said true (to an extent), this reasoning would apply for robots, but we are humans, as such this fails to recognize as Hex hammer pointed out the huge and unnecessary gap that grudge creates for for things like business, politics, art, and countless other things that are crucial to human life, not to mention those that are of most beauty and importance such as love, friendship and peace.

But apart from all of these key reasons as to why we should forgive, I think it is that of the great lessons that can be learned from the experiences associated with forgiveness.

When I was about sixteen I had started a new job as a waiter at a restaurant. On this particular night I was to finish my shift at 11.30 at night. I had arranged with some one I knew to pick me up after my shift and he had agreed to pick me up at a location roughly 15 minutes walk from the restaurant. As my shift finished I walked to the location where he had agreed to pick me up. As I waited, half an hour had passed and he had still not come, I waited there a total of one hour before I decided that he was not going to come, as so, I began my walk home as I had no money for a taxi and the bus service was long finished. During the walk home as you can imagine I was fairly unhappy and disappointed. The walk home took me 3.30 hours! so when I finally got home it was around 4:00 in the morning! By the time I got to the front door I was hungry and my legs and feet were sore and numb but my unhappiness was long gone as the walk was over so that was all ok, but I think it is fair to say that I went to bed pretty disappointed with that person. the following day, my whole lower body was aching (as it did for two days!) especially my feet. But that previous night I had learned an important lesson, to never again put such reliance and faith in such situations, and to always have some sort of a back up plan, and I told my self that night that I would remember this example for the rest of my life. As the day progressed however, I started to realize that had that event not occurred I would know not the valuable lesson I had just learned, and as that happened, inside of me I had completely forgiven that person and all negative feelings were lost and instead I felt gratitude and appreciation for what had happened to me.

So as I see from such examples, there are truly great and valuable lessons that can come as a result of forgiving others, and if forgiveness does not always result in such lessons, such lessons can often teach forgiveness.

There by, forgiveness can lead to a lesson, and a lesson can lead to forgiveness.


Sorry for the lengthy post.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 12:41 am
@sometime sun,
Also I would say forgiveness has nothing to with the morals. But I'm not quite sure presently how to prove or show it.

---------- Post added 05-23-2010 at 07:49 AM ----------

Soul Brother;167583 wrote:

There by, forgiveness can lead to a lesson, and a lesson can lead to forgiveness.


Sorry for the lengthy post.

I like this but would say, forgiveness can lead to understanding, and understanding can lead to forgiveness.
Back with compassion again.

And can you ever understand or learn what ultimately can never be valued? What ultimately must remain valueless?
(there really is no price tag, you don't gain anything for it?)

(what's wrong with a lengthy post?)
 
Dosed
 
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 12:52 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;167578 wrote:
Interesting, so you are ruled by emotion? It is my understanding, that people who are ruled by emotion, often ends up in fights.


not at all. I think you misunderstood my post. I only mean that forgiveness is based upon an attitude and emotion. It can also be rational in that you consider the outcome and the circumstance of the offense against you. but still, it comes about through an emotion. and therefore it's subjective. no one can say that forgiveness is necessary or "the right thing to do" because it is subjective to each individual and their circumstance because of the emotions involved.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 01:06 am
@Dosed,
Is compassion the only emotion that needs to understand something and learn something where as all the other emotions are trying to prove something or just for the sake of proof?
Is compassion the only emotion that is sure of its as surety even meaning sure of its unsurity?
Assured it cannot be sure.
Is not forgiveness the ultimate rational of what cannot be known,
because it is not meant to be known.
It is meant to be forgiven, is meant to be unknown?

(doubt doubt?)

---------- Post added 05-23-2010 at 08:16 AM ----------

Certainty in uncertainty but not uncertainty in certainty.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 01:58 am
@Dosed,
Dosed.;167587 wrote:
not at all. I think you misunderstood my post. I only mean that forgiveness is based upon an attitude and emotion. It can also be rational in that you consider the outcome and the circumstance of the offense against you. but still, it comes about through an emotion. and therefore it's subjective. no one can say that forgiveness is necessary or "the right thing to do" because it is subjective to each individual and their circumstance because of the emotions involved.
Yes, I see for many it's a matter of emotional consideration, but others it is a rational straightforward consideration.
 
 

 
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