Faith measured

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serunato
 
Reply Tue 18 May, 2010 04:51 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;165855 wrote:
Well, it does seem to me that if X is willing to sacrifice his life for Y, and if Y is not willing to do that for X, then X loves Y more than Y loves X, ceterus paribus.


It seems a little extreme to measure love by the willingness to give one's life for them, but ok. I love my children enough to sacrifice my life to save them, but I would be horrified if I thought that they would sacrifice their lives to save me. Does that really mean that I love my children more than they love me? I think most would disagree with that.

Quote:
The notion that intensity of love is unmeasurable seems to me to have nothing to say for itself. It is a product of the false idea that love is just an inner state of mind, and thus cannot be detected. There is just no reason in the world to suppose that is true.


Like I said there are too many ways that might be considered to behaviorally express love that very well might indicate something else entirely AND there are many ways that one can fake these behaviors that could indicated love. And love is entirely subjective. What you say indicates love is not love itself anymore than the light and heat from the Sun are the Sun itself. And as you know, light and heat can both come from other sources than the Sun.
 
mark noble
 
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 08:36 am
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;165875 wrote:


Definition is measuring, how then would you define faith?


Hi Sun,

Faith is having the confidence to trust in what you believe, and to believe that confidence to be trustworthy.

Have a smashing everything, always Sun.

Mark...
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 08:46 am
@serunato,
serunato;165887 wrote:
It seems a little extreme to measure love by the willingness to give one's life for them, but ok. I love my children enough to sacrifice my life to save them, but I would be horrified if I thought that they would sacrifice their lives to save me. Does that really mean that I love my children more than they love me? I think most would disagree with that.



Like I said there are too many ways that might be considered to behaviorally express love that very well might indicate something else entirely AND there are many ways that one can fake these behaviors that could indicated love. And love is entirely subjective. What you say indicates love is not love itself anymore than the light and heat from the Sun are the Sun itself. And as you know, light and heat can both come from other sources than the Sun.


I think that we might have been talking about relations among adults of normal intelligence and sound mind. Fallacy of accident.

The point is that love is not entirely subjective, and for you to say so commits the fallacy of begging the question. It is not merely false that love is entirely subjective, it is a nefarious view, since it often is just an excuse for people acting atrociously toward others, and then trying to excuse themselves by intoning the lie (or self-deception) "I love you". There are child and wife abusers who beat up kids and women while assuring themselves that they are doing it because they love their victims. Religious persecutions were done under the same guise. A horrible hypocrisy.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 06:52 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;165542 wrote:
Of course I can many times. But not, of course, all the time. There are many relationships when one party is far more loved than the other party. There are novel and stories about that sort of thing all the time. Not a very good rhetorical question, since it argues for the very opposite you want it to argue for.

Cannot rhetorics be paradoxes?
This is what you are describing, no?

---------- Post added 05-20-2010 at 02:12 AM ----------

serunato;165767 wrote:

I'm not sure that fiction is a good way to try and prove that you can or can't do something.

Please you may have stated but I did not hear,
How do you measure what is or is not a fiction?
And if fiction is not a good way to measure or prove something and fact fails also what else is there to do so?
Are you saying love and or faith is a fiction?
Are you saying something that can only be insured or measured by the self and not all is un-real or a fiction?
Are you saying the only things that can be measured or proved are that which we can all witness and be sure of?
Are you saying the self is a fiction? Even though most of us have one?
Please correct me if I am wrong, I really don't want, need or like to be.
Although I am not at this point sure what is right so am open to your convincing words.

---------- Post added 05-20-2010 at 02:14 AM ----------

Ergo;165771 wrote:
Yes, faith can be measured in relation to belief.

They are inversely proportional.

Please expand.
What is the relation?

---------- Post added 05-20-2010 at 02:21 AM ----------

mark noble;165779 wrote:
Hello All,

There is only one measure of faith, in my opinion. - Do you believe, or doubt? If you believe - there is no doubt! I believe in what I believe, and doubt it not at all. Therefore I believe in ME 100%. I know I have no doubt.
As soon as the element of doubt rears its head in the mindset of the faithful, they are no longer faithful. How can someone be 50%, 23%, or 99% faithful? They can't. The word "faithful" itself, derives from "Faith" and "Full" - "Full of Faith", not "nearly full or a bit full", or "Half full". Something that is full is full. Is it not?

Anyway, thank you, and have a truly brilliant everything, always.

Mark...

What about questioning your faith?
Is questioning doubting?
I have always found that my faith (weak or strong?) always feels and is realised and strengthened by me questioning it?
Could not once you have doubted or questioned find you have 'more' faith afterwards?
Is what you are saying strength strong is only measured by totality and mild weak does not even exist because to have less than totality is to not be full ergo empty?
So I think this says there is not even 'strength' to measure faith.
 
Deckard
 
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 07:48 pm
@sometime sun,
At least for the peoples of the books (e.g. Hebrew Bible, the New Testament, The Koran) Faith can be quantified and so it can be measured according to how much of The Word of God one acquires, understands and believes.

Consider Luke chapter 8

Quote:
This is the meaning the parable: The seed is the word of God. Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.Luke 8:11-15
Well this could be interpreted as each seed containing the whole of the Word of God and as we shall see this is indeed the case but in answer to the OP there is still the suggestion that some have more of the Word while others have less of the Word which suggests that faith is, in a sense, measurable - Consider Luke 8:18.
Quote:
Therefore consider carefully how you listen. Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken from him. - Luke 8:18
This is hopeful to most of us as most of us have at least received some of the Word - for example Matthew 7:12. By Luke 8:18 Faith will grow deeper for those who have received even one seed. This is why the parable talks about seeds because seeds grow. Faith grows from a single seed but from that seed roots, stems, leaves and yes also fruits are produced. Can Faith be measured? I suppose we could extend the parable and say that Faith can be measured by the depth of the roots the height of stalk, the number of leaves and the number of fruits. But again, by Luke 8:18 you need not worry about the quantity of your Faith so long as you are sure that at least one seed has found fertile ground within your heart.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 08:04 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;165807 wrote:
No one is saying that you can get it down to a science. But sometimes you can tell whether one party loves the other more. We often have good reason to believe that a relationship is one-sided. And the more mature and self-aware people will usually admit it.

And, in the case of faith, of course it can be measured. I can evaluate which of my beliefs have justification and which do not. And I can also evaluate others' beliefs by asking them for justification. Of course, that sometimes entails a pretty detailed discussion, but it can be done. That said, of course I'm not going to come out with hard numbers or exact measurements, but I can certainly get an idea as to someone's reasonableness.

What about 'blind' faith, is this the ultimate addition or subtraction of faith?
Is BLIND faith actually the only faith that exists or the only faith that cannot exist?

Zetherin;165807 wrote:

I'm confused by your OP. Are you speaking only about faith in metaphysical beings in your post? I ask because faith need not have to do with anything religious or spiritual.

Absolutely agree.
In measuring anything we must first ask and know what it is we are measuring.
It can be any kind of faith as I even believe people can have religious experiences about themselves and not even in God, even though it is actually usually realising you are God or as.
Faith is not God specific.
And as EVERYONE has a faith, surely we have made our first step in a commonality of the whole demographic and this should make it easier to measure? In theory.
Not everyone has love but everyone has faith in something or other else they are dead?
Yes I am coming to think it does not really need to be measured because either you have it or you have it?
We came to understand faith and belief are they same? no?
We came to understand you are faith full or faith empty? no?

No one can believe in nothing, nothing cannot be believed.
No one has no faith therefore all have all faith.

Do we still need to measure something we all need to have to live?
Do we not all have exactly the same 'amount' faith but just in different things?
So the further question is; Is there anything you can have faith in that gives you 'more'?
Can I have less more faith in God than your less more faith in not-God?
(I think I am coming to conclude one of my first ever threads I have been part of here. I just need the words, I hope I am coming across clearly)

---------- Post added 05-20-2010 at 03:19 AM ----------

serunato;165838 wrote:



faith


-noun 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in god or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology . the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

Faith is ownership of reality Faith is realities ownership.
And as we all own a part of reality we all are faithful.
So maybe we move on and measure whether one has is more less owned or owner of reality.
And if less owned or owing reality possibly such as a mental patient, could those with a stronger weaker grip or gripped reality/faith maybe they are the ones with more or less?
So I guess first we must ask if one can be more or less owned owning of faith and or if reality?
What do you think?
Is not faith reality?
And to measure it one can do so by measuring sanity insanity?
But can even sanity or insanity ever really be measured as it is just another's mind and faith about it?
Can I be more real than you?

---------- Post added 05-20-2010 at 03:31 AM ----------

kennethamy;165855 wrote:
Well, it does seem to me that if X is willing to sacrifice his life for Y, and if Y is not willing to do that for X, then X loves Y more than Y loves X, ceterus paribus.

The notion that intensity of love is unmeasurable seems to me to have nothing to say for itself. It is a product of the false idea that love is just an inner state of mind, and thus cannot be detected. There is just no reason in the world to suppose that is true.

Back where I started I suppose, Understanding or Intelligence or even Sense of love, faith, reality could make it 'more'?
Can ones love be the same if they do not 'understand' or appreciate even sanitise it as 'much' as the other?
Perhaps reality and or if faith is 'more' so for those who find more answers?
Which also goes back to questioning or doubting more can bring 'more' faith and or if reality?
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 08:39 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;165040 wrote:
Can faith be measured?

My own little opinions:
When a stranger looks at another stranger with an open face, that is a leap of faith. When a friend tells a friend something slightly risky to their friendship, because it needs to be said, that is a leap of faith.

When a questionable thing is said that could easily be taken the wrong way, and we choose to give so and so the benefit of the doubt, that is a leap of faith.

For me, life is a succession of leaps of faith. Interrupted by doubts, angers, confusions, etc.

Still, two humans smiling at one another with a gleams in their eyes is not a bad thing -- to understate on of those primary but not so talked of pleasures.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 08:57 pm
@mark noble,
mark noble;166113 wrote:
Hi Sun,

Faith is having the confidence to trust in what you believe, and to believe that confidence to be trustworthy.

Have a smashing everything, always Sun.

Mark...

Nail on the head, as you can see I came to theorise faith is in fact reality and at last an understanding of reality.
How do we measure trust?
And reality is nothing more or less than trust to my mind.
I was going to say reality and trust are also truth and I am reminded that love, reality, faith and now trust are all subjective. Truth is not only subjective it can be and is objective.
So besides the fact I am now imagining that any thing that is subjective is not in fact as 'real' as the objective (speculative, rejective, inductive, inclusive), I am thinking faith, love, reality, trust do not actually exist at all?
Just the objective truth exists.
How do we objectify faith? Can it be done? If not does it, can it exist?
I have just led my self a merry circle,
'How do we objectify faith?' is 'How can we measure faith?'
I may have missed it but has anyone yet objectified faith?

Thanks

---------- Post added 05-20-2010 at 04:03 AM ----------

I may be wrong it may be 'unobjective' truth is the only thing that exists.

That which is the only thing to answer and yet needs no question. <---Is this line objective or unobjective?

(I need my bed)

---------- Post added 05-20-2010 at 04:21 AM ----------

Deckard;166261 wrote:
At least for the peoples of the books (e.g. Hebrew Bible, the New Testament, The Koran) Faith can be quantified and so it can be measured according to how much of The Word of God one acquires, understands and believes.

Consider Luke chapter 8

Well this could be interpreted as each seed containing the whole of the Word of God and as we shall see this is indeed the case but in answer to the OP there is still the suggestion that some have more of the Word while others have less of the Word which suggests that faith is, in a sense, measurable - Consider Luke 8:18.This is hopeful to most of us as most of us have at least received some of the Word - for example Matthew 7:12. By Luke 8:18 Faith will grow deeper for those who have received even one seed. This is why the parable talks about seeds because seeds grow. Faith grows from a single seed but from that seed roots, stems, leaves and yes also fruits are produced. Can Faith be measured? I suppose we could extend the parable and say that Faith can be measured by the depth of the roots the height of stalk, the number of leaves and the number of fruits. But again, by Luke 8:18 you need not worry about the quantity of your Faith so long as you are sure that at least one seed has found fertile ground within your heart.

I like a lot, Thank you so much.

So could your faith be measured by how many you convert, convince, convict?
Did not Jesus have 'more' faith because he converted, convinced, convicted the entire world?

Is faith an infection a cure? Can we not measure it this way? Can we not have 'more' faith the sicker we once were or the better we have now become?
In the end the better or worse 'more' or 'less' we make other people or the world?
Cannot faith be measured by the amount of goodness one spreads?
Cannot we agree faith is a measure of goodness?
And surly at least goodness can be measured?

---------- Post added 05-20-2010 at 04:24 AM ----------

Maybe not goodness, maybe righteousness instead?

---------- Post added 05-20-2010 at 05:18 AM ----------

Reconstructo;166279 wrote:
My own little opinions:
When a stranger looks at another stranger with an open face, that is a leap of faith. When a friend tells a friend something slightly risky to their friendship, because it needs to be said, that is a leap of faith.

When a questionable thing is said that could easily be taken the wrong way, and we choose to give so and so the benefit of the doubt, that is a leap of faith.

For me, life is a succession of leaps of faith. Interrupted by doubts, angers, confusions, etc.

Still, two humans smiling at one another with a gleams in their eyes is not a bad thing -- to understate on of those primary but not so talked of pleasures.

Yes perhaps faith is at its strongest when it no longer seeks to prove anything even its self.
Perhaps faith can be measured by how much we allow and are allowed by it?
The dainty delicate faith objectives you describe are sadly the easiest to be over run and confused.
Faith can be based on reasoning before religion.
Again perhaps a stronger faith is that which is a resolved faith and self.
A religion can do this and can leave you more unresolved, just as logic?
Is faith logical?
A strong faith looks every way at the crossroads before taking the best rout.
Perhaps faith can be measured by judgement after all?
Perhaps faith is ultimate enlightenment?
Faith can be measured by awareness of you and your reality?
Measure faith on impact upon others?
You may not take the quickest road because you know you need the journey?
Are you stronger the quicker you realise you are wrong?
Again can faith be measured by right and or wrong?
Who's right, who's wrong?
Who's faith?
 
serunato
 
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 10:30 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;166117 wrote:
The point is that love is not entirely subjective, and for you to say so commits the fallacy of begging the question.


Pointing fallacy fingers is very unbecoming, especially when you have four fallacy fingers pointing back at you. From my perspective it's you begging the question, you erroneously assume that love is not subjective. And it's ugly to poison the well by suggesting that I would redefine love in such a way as to rationalize harm to anyone, I did not and you know that. "Among adults of normal intelligence and sound mind"? That is as under handed an ad hominem as I have ever had the displeasure to read. Emotions are subjective; epistemically, culturally and biographically. Love is an emotion. Therefore love is subjective. You may say that behaviors exhibited by someone in love are love itself, but that's cum hoc ergo propter hoc.
 
Deckard
 
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 10:53 pm
@serunato,
serunato;166295 wrote:
Pointing fallacy fingers is very unbecoming, especially when you have four fallacy fingers pointing back at you. From my perspective it's you begging the question, you erroneously assume that love is not subjective. And it's ugly to poison the well by suggesting that I would redefine love in such a way as to rationalize harm to anyone, I did not and you know that. "Among adults of normal intelligence and sound mind"? That is as under handed an ad hominem as I have ever had the displeasure to read. Emotions are subjective; epistemically, culturally and biographically. Love is an emotion. Therefore love is subjective. You may say that behaviors exhibited by someone in love are love itself, but that's cum hoc ergo propter hoc.

Are emotions subjective? Most of us seem to have emotions just as most of us seem to be able to be logical. Logic isn't really all that esoteric. Granted, if the chain of reasoning as long as say, Godel's Proof, most of us will tire of the process before we reach the final goal. But there is such a thing as common sense and most of the logic we encounter in everyday life falls under the domain of common sense. Just as there is common sense there is common emotion or sympathy.

Consider what Adam Smith said about this:

Quote:
How selfish soever man may be supposed, there are evidently some principles in his nature, which interest him in the fortunes of others, and render their happiness necessary to him, though he derives nothing from it, except the pleasure of seeing it. Of this kind is pity or compassion, the emotion we feel for the misery of others, when we either see it, or are made to conceive it in a very lively manner. That we often derive sorrow from the sorrows of others, is a matter of fact too obvious to require any instances to prove it; for this sentiment, like all the other original passions of human nature, is by no means confined to the virtuous or the humane, though they perhaps may feel it with the most exquisite sensibility. The greatest ruffian, the most hardened violator of the laws of society, is not altogether without it.
- from Adam Smith's Theory of Moral Sentiments
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 11:33 pm
@Deckard,
Deckard, Everyone; Could not faith be measured or measure by the sentimentalities?
Surly as writ we all have on a basic level this in common, this may indeed be a leveller, a gauge of faith?
And I cant believe it has been overlooked but is not our capacity to ably forgive and be forgive-able also an indicator of strength of faith?
What does condemnation prove?
We come back to a good judgement.
 
mark noble
 
Reply Thu 20 May, 2010 07:48 am
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;166254 wrote:

Could not once you have doubted or questioned find you have 'more' faith afterwards?
.


Hi Sun,

You will never know the strength of your faith until you shut the door behind you and leap through the one ahead, again and again. Eventually you will come to ONE final door, The only question then is, "DO I NEED TO KNOW EVERYTHING?" Enter that door, by all means, if you dare. Me, Just knowing it is there, is enough.

Thank you Sun, and keep leaping.

Mark...
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 20 May, 2010 08:14 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;166279 wrote:

When a stranger looks at another stranger with an open face, that is a leap of faith. When a friend tells a friend something slightly risky to their friendship, because it needs to be said, that is a leap of faith.

When a questionable thing is said that could easily be taken the wrong way, and we choose to give so and so the benefit of the doubt, that is a leap of faith.



Since there may be very good reasons for giving the benefit of the doubt, both in general, and in the particular instance, giving the benefit of the doubt is anything but a leap of faith. QED.
 
 

 
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