Faith measured

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Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 04:46 pm
Can faith be measured?

Is it only measurable by how much some one else has not?

Is your spirituality or faith measured by what you do or what you do or don't believe?

How can faith ever be measured?

No really, how can I say I have more faith in you than you in me?

How can something be measured that has no way of disproving you?
How can you prove your faith?
How can you prove some one has less than you?

Is faith only measured by God or spirit and therefore ultimately cannot be proven because you cant prove God or spirit?

Is faith that which proves God? or yourself?

*answer one some or all, better still ask and add your own*
 
mark noble
 
Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 06:02 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;165040 wrote:
Can faith be measured?

Is it only measurable by how much some one else has not?

Is your spirituality or faith measured by what you do or what you do or don't believe?

How can faith ever be measured?

No really, how can I say I have more faith in you than you in me?

How can something be measured that has no way of disproving you?
How can you prove your faith?
How can you prove some one has less than you?

Is faith only measured by God or spirit and therefore ultimately cannot be proven because you cant prove God or spirit?

Is faith that which proves God? or yourself?

*answer one some or all, better still ask and add your own*

Hi Sun,

I'll answer what I can. hope it helps.
1) No, It is only measured by you, for you cannot exaggerate your own foundation.
2) It is measured by who you are, not what you do.
3) Refer to (1)
4) Mutual reflective-causation. We perceive others EXACTLY as they perceive us. The reasons differ, but the feelings are mutual.
5) Don't understand this one. Can you ask it differently, please?
6) Confront yourself on it.
7) You can't, and other's faith is their concern. Your faith is yours'.
8) Whatever God, belief system, or material ideology you adhere to, adheres to you in like fashion.
9) Neither. It proves the validity of everything, and nothing, and the pieces in between.

I hope your search leads you to you, Sun. For that is the only place where you will find the true knowledge of all things.

Thank you, and dig deep.

Mark...
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 06:31 pm
@mark noble,
mark noble;165067 wrote:
Hi Sun,

I'll answer what I can. hope it helps.

Any participation always does.

mark noble;165067 wrote:

1) No, It is only measured by you, for you cannot exaggerate your own foundation.

But other can exaggerate you.
Is our faith measured by the conviction of others?
mark noble;165067 wrote:

2) It is measured by who you are, not what you do.

How can you know and believe in your self unless you have first proven it through defeat or conquest?
Okay how do you measure 'who' you are? unless you know through action and consequence of what you are?

I do not know what I am but I do know what I am not.

mark noble;165067 wrote:

3) Refer to (1)

Surly what is not is more easily exposed that what is?

mark noble;165067 wrote:

4) Mutual reflective-causation. We perceive others EXACTLY as they perceive us. The reasons differ, but the feelings are mutual.

How can something be mutual that can never be experienced there fore never be proven just taken on 'faith'?
mark noble;165067 wrote:

5) Don't understand this one. Can you ask it differently, please?

How can I believe you love me unless you know me well enough to show me a measure of love?
You tell me you love me how can I trust this when I myself don't know how to prove my own love for you?
What is love when love is not contained in a factor? word or action?
How can love be only about proving it through actions?
mark noble;165067 wrote:

6) Confront yourself on it.

How can you first face yourself if you have not first turned away form another?
mark noble;165067 wrote:

7) You can't, and other's faith is their concern. Your faith is yours'.

But what of giving faith over to be of strength too others?
How can I be strong for you when I don't know how to be strong for me?
How can I prove me to you when you can't prove you to you?
mark noble;165067 wrote:

8) Whatever God, belief system, or material ideology you adhere to, adheres to you in like fashion.

So are there any degrees of nakedness when it come to faith?
Or must it be worn?
mark noble;165067 wrote:

9) Neither. It proves the validity of everything, and nothing, and the pieces in between.

So do you agree then that the self is ultimately unprovable and without basis other than partner compatriot possession?
If you cannot be prove your self faith or God (same thing) can you end up only being able to prove another?
mark noble;165067 wrote:

I hope your search leads you to you, Sun. For that is the only place where you will find the true knowledge of all things.

Thank you, and dig deep.

Mark...

It not only leads me to me, but leads me too you as you are the instiller of inquisition and inquest.
I have no idea how to prove just my self to myself.
Just goes to show I have no idea how to prove my faith unless I can be appreciated for it.

No, thank you (we may be here a while)

All my possible love, sometime sun
(Now, how do I prove all my love is possible?)
Take it on faith.
But not necessarily taken by it.
 
mark noble
 
Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 07:26 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;165081 wrote:
Any participation always does.


But other can exaggerate you.
Is our faith measured by the conviction of others?

How can you know and believe in your self unless you have first proven it through defeat or conquest?
Okay how do you measure 'who' you are? unless you know through action and consequence of what you are?

I do not know what I am but I do know what I am not.


Surly what is not is more easily exposed that what is?


How can something be mutual that can never be experienced there fore never be proven just taken on 'faith'?

How can I believe you love me unless you know me well enough to show me a measure of love?
You tell me you love me how can I trust this when I myself don't know how to prove my own love for you?
What is love when love is not contained in a factor? word or action?
How can love be only about proving it through actions?

How can you first face yourself if you have not first turned away form another?

But what of giving faith over to be of strength too others?
How can I be strong for you when I don't know how to be strong for me?
How can I prove me to you when you can't prove you to you?

So are there any degrees of nakedness when it come to faith?
Or must it be worn?

So do you agree then that the self is ultimately unprovable and without basis other than partner compatriot possession?
If you cannot be prove your self faith or God (same thing) can you end up only being able to prove another?

It not only leads me to me, but leads me too you as you are the instiller of inquisition and inquest.
I have no idea how to prove just my self to myself.
Just goes to show I have no idea how to prove my faith unless I can be appreciated for it.

No, thank you (we may be here a while)

All my possible love, sometime sun
(Now, how do I prove all my love is possible?)
Take it on faith.
But not necessarily taken by it.


Hi Sun,

I wish I could understand this multiquote function, The two greatest friends a man could wish for have joined me on this forum. I know they will teach me, and I know they will help you find yourself.

I'll be going to bed shortly, but I'll get back to you in more depth on each of these issues soon.

I will answer the end bit though: I feel the same way about you, as you do me. This I KNOW.

Thank you Sun, and inspire as inspired.

Mark...
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 09:37 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;165040 wrote:
Can faith be measured?




Since faith is only a kind of belief (belief that lacks evidence) it can be measured just as any other belief can be measured by the strength of the belief, however that is measure. Usually, we measure the strength of a belief by the strength of the feeling, and/or what would be done as a consequence of the belief.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Mon 17 May, 2010 05:49 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy; So are you saying faith can be measured by emotion and or feeling and the consequence of the action of it?
How can an action be an emotion?
Could they be separate, sense and sensation?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 17 May, 2010 06:04 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;165492 wrote:
kennethamy; So are you saying faith can be measured by emotion and or feeling and the consequence of the action of it?
How can an action be an emotion?
Could they be separate, sense and sensation?


I mean by strength of conviction. I can tell when I am more strongly convinced about some things than other things.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Mon 17 May, 2010 06:08 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;165501 wrote:
I mean by strength of conviction. I can tell when I am more strongly convinced about some things than other things.

So is it possible faith can be measured by restraint and or restriction?
Faith can be measured by the cells of hell?
 
Ding an Sich
 
Reply Mon 17 May, 2010 06:33 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;165040 wrote:
Can faith be measured?

Is it only measurable by how much some one else has not?

Is your spirituality or faith measured by what you do or what you do or don't believe?

How can faith ever be measured?

No really, how can I say I have more faith in you than you in me?

How can something be measured that has no way of disproving you?
How can you prove your faith?
How can you prove some one has less than you?

Is faith only measured by God or spirit and therefore ultimately cannot be proven because you cant prove God or spirit?

Is faith that which proves God? or yourself?

*answer one some or all, better still ask and add your own*


Replies to a Questioning Gentleman Concerning "Faith"

1. Faith cannot be measured quantitatively, but only by degree. The expressions "I have some faith" or "I have little faith" show faith as a degree that an individual has in somone or something. But even this seems questionable.

2. Faith is seen through ones actions. When one acts in accordance with certain principles e.g., Christian principles, there can be a revealing of one's faith. However, faith must have a source, which comes from the subject. The subject must have faith in order to reveal his/her faith through actions; that faith being in something e.g., that Christ is the Saviour.

3. Depending on the way "faith" is used, we can say that I have more faith than you in this. How we can ascertain this seems questionable: how exactly do I know that you have less faith than me? From the way in which you express it (which is by degree). Regarding this question in religious light, it seems that it is not even right to assert ones faith is greater than anothers (if we are still going on Chrisitianity). Instead we must build up weaker faith's without assenting to the superiority of ours.

4. One can disprove anothers faith by showing the actions that seem contrary to one's professed faith.

5. Youre pressuposing that you cannot prove God and therefore no one can measure faith. Faith and God are not direct corellaries. You can measure faith, but by degree.

6. You do not have to prove yourself. If I am perceiving you there's nothing to prove. Faith does not prove anyone to anyone else, but only a blind commitment to something.

6.1 Perhaps faith is what proves God. Maybe if you walk in your faith while others perceive you to be doing so, they may think to themselves, "Perhaps God does exist." But this seems more like conviction than anything else, albeit it is rather weak in its convicting.
 
serunato
 
Reply Mon 17 May, 2010 08:15 pm
@sometime sun,
Faith is like love. Can you measure whether I love you more or you love me more? And faith is one of those subjects about which it is impossible to discuss intelligently until it is carefully defined and the definition agreed upon. My having faith that my car will make it to work is a world of difference from my having faith in God.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 17 May, 2010 09:52 pm
@serunato,
serunato;165528 wrote:
Faith is like love. Can you measure whether I love you more or you love me more? .


Of course I can many times. But not, of course, all the time. There are many relationships when one party is far more loved than the other party. There are novel and stories about that sort of thing all the time. Not a very good rhetorical question, since it argues for the very opposite you want it to argue for.
 
serunato
 
Reply Tue 18 May, 2010 09:57 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;165542 wrote:
Of course I can many times. But not, of course, all the time. There are many relationships when one party is far more loved than the other party. There are novel and stories about that sort of thing all the time. Not a very good rhetorical question, since it argues for the very opposite you want it to argue for.


What is the metric by which you measure love amounts? Or faith? So if two people love each other, can you measure whether or not the love is equal or unbalaced in one direction or the other? I say no, and that measuring love or faith has no meaning. Like measuring if one cup of water is wetter than another. Love and faith are subjective and therefore not able to be experienced outside of the individual and certainly not measured. You MIGHT be able to speculate that one person loves the other and the love is unrequited, but that is a yes no, true false question, not quantitative, qualitative. Also, I'm not sure that fiction is a good way to try and prove that you can or can't do something.
 
Ergo phil
 
Reply Tue 18 May, 2010 10:09 am
@sometime sun,
Yes, faith can be measured in relation to belief.

They are inversely proportional.
 
mark noble
 
Reply Tue 18 May, 2010 10:31 am
@Ergo phil,
Hello All,

There is only one measure of faith, in my opinion. - Do you believe, or doubt? If you believe - there is no doubt! I believe in what I believe, and doubt it not at all. Therefore I believe in ME 100%. I know I have no doubt.
As soon as the element of doubt rears its head in the mindset of the faithful, they are no longer faithful. How can someone be 50%, 23%, or 99% faithful? They can't. The word "faithful" itself, derives from "Faith" and "Full" - "Full of Faith", not "nearly full or a bit full", or "Half full". Something that is full is full. Is it not?

Anyway, thank you, and have a truly brilliant everything, always.

Mark...
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 18 May, 2010 10:55 am
@serunato,
serunato;165767 wrote:
What is the metric by which you measure love amounts? Or faith? So if two people love each other, can you measure whether or not the love is equal or unbalaced in one direction or the other? I say no, and that measuring love or faith has no meaning. Like measuring if one cup of water is wetter than another. Love and faith are subjective and therefore not able to be experienced outside of the individual and certainly not measured. You MIGHT be able to speculate that one person loves the other and the love is unrequited, but that is a yes no, true false question, not quantitative, qualitative. Also, I'm not sure that fiction is a good way to try and prove that you can or can't do something.


Well if X and Y love one another, but X sacrifices for Y, but Y does not for X, I would say that is an indication. Wouldn't you. I think that what may lie behind your view is that you think that "love" is not only the name of a feeling, but it is the name of only a feeling. But that is false. "Love" is just as much the name of a kind of behavior and a tendency to behave. And although feelings are not, perhaps, open to public inspection, but behavior is open to public inspection.

---------- Post added 05-18-2010 at 01:00 PM ----------

mark noble;165779 wrote:
Hello All,

There is only one measure of faith, in my opinion. - Do you believe, or doubt? If you believe - there is no doubt! I believe in what I believe, and doubt it not at all. Therefore I believe in ME 100%. I know I have no doubt.
As soon as the element of doubt rears its head in the mindset of the faithful, they are no longer faithful. How can someone be 50%, 23%, or 99% faithful? They can't. The word "faithful" itself, derives from "Faith" and "Full" - "Full of Faith", not "nearly full or a bit full", or "Half full". Something that is full is full. Is it not?

Anyway, thank you, and have a truly brilliant everything, always.

Mark...


And yet, people of faith are always admitting going through periods of doubt. Read St.Augustine's Confessions a s a prime example. In fact, many such people believe that doubt makes their faith stronger, and, indeed, that faith without doubt is only a kind of lip-service. For faith is something that overcomes doubt, so without doubt, faith is very weak indeed. At least, so I have read, and been told.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Tue 18 May, 2010 11:42 am
@serunato,
serunato;165767 wrote:
What is the metric by which you measure love amounts? Or faith? So if two people love each other, can you measure whether or not the love is equal or unbalaced in one direction or the other? I say no, and that measuring love or faith has no meaning. Like measuring if one cup of water is wetter than another. Love and faith are subjective and therefore not able to be experienced outside of the individual and certainly not measured. You MIGHT be able to speculate that one person loves the other and the love is unrequited, but that is a yes no, true false question, not quantitative, qualitative. Also, I'm not sure that fiction is a good way to try and prove that you can or can't do something.


No one is saying that you can get it down to a science. But sometimes you can tell whether one party loves the other more. We often have good reason to believe that a relationship is one-sided. And the more mature and self-aware people will usually admit it.

And, in the case of faith, of course it can be measured. I can evaluate which of my beliefs have justification and which do not. And I can also evaluate others' beliefs by asking them for justification. Of course, that sometimes entails a pretty detailed discussion, but it can be done. That said, of course I'm not going to come out with hard numbers or exact measurements, but I can certainly get an idea as to someone's reasonableness.

sometime sun wrote:
Is faith only measured by God or spirit and therefore ultimately cannot be proven because you cant prove God or spirit?


I'm confused by your OP. Are you speaking only about faith in metaphysical beings in your post? I ask because faith need not have to do with anything religious or spiritual.
 
serunato
 
Reply Tue 18 May, 2010 02:33 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;165792 wrote:
Well if X and Y love one another, but X sacrifices for Y, but Y does not for X, I would say that is an indication. Wouldn't you. I think that what may lie behind your view is that you think that "love" is not only the name of a feeling, but it is the name of only a feeling. But that is false. "Love" is just as much the name of a kind of behavior and a tendency to behave. And although feelings are not, perhaps, open to public inspection, but behavior is open to public inspection.


I would say that it is a possible indicator of the presence of love. But it doesn't say that X loves Y more, just that it is probable that Y does not love X at all, while it is possible that X loves Y. And I say that it is only possible because it may be that Y expresses its feeling through a different set of behaviors than does X. What set of behaviors is always associated with the feeling of love? It isn't consistent, so it can't be measured.

But you bring a valid point. If behavior is an indicator, then what if one pretends and fakes the appropriate behavior? People can always pretend, or lie, through behaviors as well as words. There are also lots of stories about that.

But the original question was whether faith could be measured and not detected. Detection in and of itself in my opinion is also impossible due to the completely subjective reality of love and faith. You could never do better than a guess. And that is what connects love with faith.

---------- Post added 05-18-2010 at 01:59 PM ----------

Zetherin;165807 wrote:
No one is saying that you can get it down to a science. But sometimes you can tell whether one party loves the other more. We often have good reason to believe that a relationship is one-sided. And the more mature and self-aware people will usually admit it.


I think maybe we've taken the love analogy farther than we should have. What can we agree upon is the definition of faith?

faith


-noun 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in god or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology . the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Tue 18 May, 2010 03:06 pm
@sometime sun,
serunato wrote:
What can we agree upon is the definition of faith?


I was referring to (1) off the list you posted. Or, in other words, belief without justification.

And I think it is often easy to see when we hold a belief without justification. Though this isn't always so.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 18 May, 2010 03:13 pm
@serunato,
serunato;165838 wrote:
I would say that it is a possible indicator of the presence of love. But it doesn't say that X loves Y more, just that it is probable that Y does not love X at all, while it is possible that X loves Y.



Well, it does seem to me that if X is willing to sacrifice his life for Y, and if Y is not willing to do that for X, then X loves Y more than Y loves X, ceterus paribus.

The notion that intensity of love is unmeasurable seems to me to have nothing to say for itself. It is a product of the false idea that love is just an inner state of mind, and thus cannot be detected. There is just no reason in the world to suppose that is true.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Tue 18 May, 2010 04:16 pm
@Ding an Sich,
Ding_an_Sich;165515 wrote:
Replies to a Questioning Gentleman Concerning "Faith"

1. Faith cannot be measured quantitatively, but only by degree. The expressions "I have some faith" or "I have little faith" show faith as a degree that an individual has in somone or something. But even this seems questionable.

So you could say the only measurer of faith is for you to know you once had it and now do not?
Ding_an_Sich;165515 wrote:

2. Faith is seen through ones actions. When one acts in accordance with certain principles e.g., Christian principles, there can be a revealing of one's faith. However, faith must have a source, which comes from the subject. The subject must have faith in order to reveal his/her faith through actions; that faith being in something e.g., that Christ is the Saviour.

Does it make it Christian faith?
Does faith have a style or type or breed?
Universal faith?
Common faith?
Ding_an_Sich;165515 wrote:

3. Depending on the way "faith" is used, we can say that I have more faith than you in this. How we can ascertain this seems questionable: how exactly do I know that you have less faith than me? From the way in which you express it (which is by degree). Regarding this question in religious light, it seems that it is not even right to assert ones faith is greater than anothers (if we are still going on Chrisitianity). Instead we must build up weaker faith's without assenting to the superiority of ours.

'In this' may be 'on this'?
So faith measured is in its expression?
It is a question of whether a Christian is greater than a Muslim, not that either one has a greater faith,
but perhaps you could say I have less Muslim faith than a Muslim and I have more Christian faith than a Muslim but can I have more Christian faith than another Christian?
Ding_an_Sich;165515 wrote:

4. One can disprove anothers faith by showing the actions that seem contrary to one's professed faith.

I think this is more proving law than faith?
Ding_an_Sich;165515 wrote:

5. Youre pressuposing that you cannot prove God and therefore no one can measure faith. Faith and God are not direct corellaries. You can measure faith, but by degree.

No I think I can prove God and my faith (same thing?) by my actions as well as my inactions. But as faith is predominantly 'Intention' how does one go about proving something they 'meant' 'mean',
Is faith 'meaning'?
Ding_an_Sich;165515 wrote:

6. You do not have to prove yourself. If I am perceiving you there's nothing to prove. Faith does not prove anyone to anyone else, but only a blind commitment to something.

Right and wrong.
I feel I must prove myself right and you right as well as my self wrong and you wrong, but first my faith will guide me to understand what is wrong and right with me before I try to prove anything.
Faith is defining right and or wrong?
Ding_an_Sich;165515 wrote:

6.1 Perhaps faith is what proves God. Maybe if you walk in your faith while others perceive you to be doing so, they may think to themselves, "Perhaps God does exist." But this seems more like conviction than anything else, albeit it is rather weak in its convicting.

So a strong faith strongly convicts and a weak one weakly pardons?
Thank you for your reply, mine might not have been up to it tonight, will come back tomorrow.

---------- Post added 05-18-2010 at 11:18 PM ----------

And thank you for thinking me a Gentleman, to you also, unless a Lady.
Either way you do me an honour. I hope one day to do so for you.

---------- Post added 05-18-2010 at 11:22 PM ----------

serunato;165528 wrote:
Faith is like love. Can you measure whether I love you more or you love me more? And faith is one of those subjects about which it is impossible to discuss intelligently until it is carefully defined and the definition agreed upon. My having faith that my car will make it to work is a world of difference from my having faith in God.

Definition is measuring, how then would you define faith?
 
 

 
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