An Accident? Convince Me...

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Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 09:56 am
This is a question for those who believe life is an accident.

Looking at the human body; it doesn't look like an accident to me.

Please explain.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 11:04 am
@TurboLung,
I dont think even athiests think the human body is an accident?

Please tell me what you mean by 'accident'.
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 11:06 am
@TurboLung,
Selective pressures on accidents produce apparent design.
 
Jebediah
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 11:16 am
@Dave Allen,
Dave Allen;146223 wrote:
Selective pressures on accidents produce apparent design.


Exactly.

This doesn't look like an accident to me either:

http://i.livescience.com/images/ig35_snowflakes_01_09.jpg
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 11:48 am
@TurboLung,
TurboLung;146183 wrote:
This is a question for those who believe life is an accident.

Looking at the human body; it doesn't look like an accident to me.

Please explain.


Who says life is an accident? The existence of life had causes, some of which we are discovering. And the human body evolved as is well known. It certainly was no accident. Where did you get the idea that anyone thinks that there were no causes for the human body?
 
fast
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 12:59 pm
@TurboLung,
[QUOTE=TurboLung;146183]This is a question for those who believe life is an accident.[/QUOTE]
TurboLung;146183 wrote:


Looking at the human body; it doesn't look like an accident to me.

Please explain.
Are you by chance talking about the Primordial Soup Theory?

This site discusses the Primordial Soup Theory. It also talks about some problems with the theory. One particular problem (problem 1C) says, "Hard to hit the right protein by accident." Maybe what you mean by "accident" is what the author of that site means by "accident."

By the way, although you said, "This is a question for those who believe life is an accident," I do want to make clear that I (just like you) do NOT believe that life is an accident.
 
Khethil
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 01:26 pm
@TurboLung,
Who thinks its an accident?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 01:31 pm
@fast,
fast;146280 wrote:


By the way, although you said, "This is a question for those who believe life is an accident," I do want to make clear that I (just like you) do NOT believe that life is an accident.


Well who believes that life is a random event? Every event has a cause. But I have a feeling that you and Turbolung think that life is an accident if it does not have a special kind of cause. Am I right?

 
fast
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 01:39 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;146290 wrote:
Well who believes that life is a random event? Every event has a cause. But I have a feeling that you and Turbolung think that life is an accident if it does not have a special kind of cause. Am I right?
I don't know what I think sometimes. I do know what I don't want to think though.

At any rate, I was very careful about how I went about wording what I said. I suppose that is (in part) why you said you have a feeling.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 02:07 pm
@fast,
fast;146295 wrote:
I don't know what I think sometimes. I do know what I don't want to think though.

At any rate, I was very careful about how I went about wording what I said. I suppose that is (in part) why you said you have a feeling.


But people who want to deny that "life is an accident" are not just asserting that life has any old cause. They are asserting that life has a special kind of cause. That it is the result of design. It is best to be straightforward about this.
 
Pyrrho
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 02:47 pm
@TurboLung,
TurboLung;146183 wrote:
This is a question for those who believe life is an accident.

Looking at the human body; it doesn't look like an accident to me.

Please explain.


You mean, you think that the appendix is there as a result of design? So, why did god put it there? Is it so that doctors could make more money taking it out when it goes bad, so they would not have to suffer with only driving E Class Mercedes, and could instead drive S Class Mercedes? Or did god just like giving humans more opportunities for pain and suffering because he is a sadist?

And do you think that the complexity and unreliability of the eye is by design? Did god want most eyes to fail to work properly, or is he an incompetent manufacturer?

Please explain how the high-maintenance, low-reliability human body shows evidence of design. It is a cobbled together mess.
 
fast
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 03:04 pm
@kennethamy,
[QUOTE=kennethamy;146309]But people who want to deny that "life is an accident" are not just asserting that life has any old cause. They are asserting that life has a special kind of cause. That it is the result of design. It is best to be straightforward about this.[/QUOTE]
You deny that life is an accident, and I deny that life is an accident. How's that for an interesting truth!

Recall, you said, "Who says life is an accident? The existence of life had causes, some of which we are discovering. And the human body evolved as is well known. It certainly was no accident. [...]"

Notice the bold. It looks like we agree yet again, but not necessarily (you think) for the same reasons, so no, I didn't miss your point, and I am (now) in the process of addressing your point.

I still think that a person who keeps his mouth shut isn't asserting much of anything, and though I did speak, I asserted no such thing, but then again, you didn't seem to be asserting it either, or are you saying that life has a special kind of cause? Of course you're not. You don't do religion.

Yes, I self-identify as a Christian, but doubt is a strong force. At any rate, and as I said, I don't know what I think sometimes, and yes, it may very well be that TurboLung believes as you feel he does, so maybe things are as they appear to you in that underlying his denial that life is an accident is the belief that life has a special kind of cause.

How's that for being straight forward?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 03:15 pm
@fast,
fast;146335 wrote:

You deny that life is an accident, and I deny that life is an accident. How's that for an interesting truth!

Recall, you said, "Who says life is an accident? The existence of life had causes, some of which we are discovering. And the human body evolved as is well known. It certainly was no accident. [...]"

Notice the bold. It looks like we agree yet again, but not necessarily (you think) for the same reasons, so no, I didn't miss your point, and I am (now) in the process of addressing your point.

I still think that a person who keeps his mouth shut isn't asserting much of anything, and though I did speak, I asserted no such thing, but then again, you didn't seem to be asserting it either, or are you saying that life has a special kind of cause? Of course you're not. You don't do religion.

Yes, I self-identify as a Christian, but doubt is a strong force. At any rate, and as I said, I don't know what I think sometimes, and yes, it may very well be that TurboLung believes as you feel he does, so maybe things are as they appear to you in that underlying his denial that life is an accident is the belief that life has a special kind of cause.

How's that for being straight forward?


That's fine. I just wanted to make sure to point out that when someone asks (rhetorically) whether life is an accident, he is really asserting that life is the result of some kind of design, and not simply asserting that life is not a random event. The latter is not the point of the question.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 03:41 pm
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;146326 wrote:
You mean, you think that the appendix is there as a result of design? So, why did god put it there? Is it so that doctors could make more money taking it out when it goes bad, so they would not have to suffer with only driving E Class Mercedes, and could instead drive S Class Mercedes? Or did god just like giving humans more opportunities for pain and suffering because he is a sadist?
you think the appendix NEVER severed a purpose?
 
Pyrrho
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 05:50 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;146344 wrote:
you think the appendix NEVER severed a purpose?


Define "purpose". I don't think it was designed. And certainly, the appendix would be a mysterious thing if humans were created ex nihilo by god. And if they evolved through natural selection, then there is no need for a god to design anything. And, as mentioned in my previous post, even the eye is problematic from a design standpoint. If it was designed, then the designer is a piss poor one who designed something extremely unreliable. So if the human body was designed by god, it is a stupid and incompetent god, or an evil one that wanted it to go wrong.
 
Rob phil
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 05:56 pm
@TurboLung,
I think that your question is referring to the fact that the human body is very elaborate and it seems very unlikely that we were created like this. I guess the answer is in our ancestors. If we evolved from very simple organisms over time than it does not seem very hard to believe. For myself at least. I dunno.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 06:06 pm
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;146378 wrote:
Define "purpose". I don't think it was designed. And certainly, the appendix would be a mysterious thing if humans were created ex nihilo by god. And if they evolved through natural selection, then there is no need for a god to design anything. And, as mentioned in my previous post, even the eye is problematic from a design standpoint. If it was designed, then the designer is a piss poor one who designed something extremely unreliable. So if the human body was designed by god, it is a stupid and incompetent god, or an evil one that wanted it to go wrong.
By purpose I simply mean the reason for a things existence. Nothing exists without a reason for existing as far as I am aware of in my understanding of science, nature, and reality.

By what standard do you critique the "supreme-ness" or lack thereof of the design of the human eye? Without the design specs so to speak how can we know how well something is designed?

I may look at a toothpick and say, "hey that toothpick seems to be poorly designed because look how easy it breaks", but a toothpick is not designed to withstand breaking, so while my observation may be correct in one sense, it still fails to demonstrate the poor design of the toothpick per what it is supposed to be.
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 06:12 pm
@TurboLung,
TurboLung;146183 wrote:
This is a question for those who believe life is an accident.

Looking at the human body; it doesn't look like an accident to me.

Please explain.
An accident is something that happens unintentionally. In biology we pervasively talk about things in terms of purpose. So you're not alone.

Some time ago, I had an episode. I'd been studying cardiac anatomy and physiology and after having worked and worked to see it, all the sudden the whole functioning of the heart appeared in my mind. It's a complex dual pump for a pressurized system. But to understand the heart, you also have to bring in kidney, nervous, and hormonal function. It was a WOW moment.

But I still don't know how it came into existence. My WOW moment wasn't the basis for gnosis. Those who say it was an accident may have red-phone access to the Big Kahuna Truth. I don't.
 
Rob phil
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 06:23 pm
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;146386 wrote:
An accident is something that happens unintentionally. In biology we pervasively talk about things in terms of purpose. So you're not alone.


Yeah it seems like to have an accident there has to be an original intent in the first place even if its for a certain accident not to occur. Am I making any sense to anyone besides myself? :\ I'm new to a lot of this.:brickwall:
 
Amperage
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 06:25 pm
@Rob phil,
Rob;146391 wrote:
Yeah it seems like to have an accident there has to be an original intent in the first place even if its for a certain accident not to occur. Am I making any sense to anyone besides myself? :\ I'm new to a lot of this.:brickwall:
no that makes sense...I see what you are saying....You're basically saying that for something to be an accident implies that something else was intended that was not the accident itself.

For me to spill milk and that be classified as an accident I must have had some different intent with the milk other than spilling it







just a side note....i then proceed to cry
 
 

 
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