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PappasNick
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 05:29 pm
@Baal,
Baal;145837 wrote:
Maybe ideas are nothing except the words that are used to convey them.


The words themselves can be ideas.
 
Baal
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 05:38 pm
@sometime sun,
My one-line post was merely intended to counter the notion of the opposite, in reality this subject has been chewed over so many times that I simply felt it was sufficient to post that line and spark some thought. In reality the relationship between "Words" and "Ideas" (though both of these terms have serious issues, itself reflective of the issue at-hand) is far more complex;

In reality the consensus is that words and language have some kind of influence on thought; whether they precede thought, whether they form thought, whether thought is absolutely dependent on language etc. is a matter of debate.

But it is quite simple to look at words and their verb roots/stems, their related homonyms, synonyms, origins etc. to see that words are not merely arbitrary tools meant to convey "Ideas".. however, words are ultimately indeed arbitrary for the most part. This is a whole different discussion and as I said, has been chewed upon ad infinitum in the proper circles. I was just providing some food for thought for those people who were under the naive assumption that words are just mathematical symbols of sorts (and even mathematical symbols are not purely correlated to "ideas" or "principles".. but again, another story).
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 05:49 pm
@PappasNick,
PappasNick;145860 wrote:
The words themselves can be ideas.


U do confuse me. Is it words or Ideas; or both? In Psychology of Law we learned a little. Still lawyers are thought to believe consiness comes before the acts like speech.:bigsmile:

Pepijn Sweep
junior
 
trismegisto
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 06:38 pm
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead;145834 wrote:
Tris:

So what is being conveyed here is only through contemplation on the terms is one able to differentiate the two and only those people enlightened enough to do it are skilled enough to make the difference all the rest of humanity are mindless sheep acting as if the two were the same?


Not at all, not by a long stretch. It does not take any individual long to understand the plain difference between the two concepts of freedom and rights. These are simple concepts that we learn at a young age. I think that often times we tend to have a hard time letting things simply be what they are and our philosophy gets bogged down in minutia that hinders our knowledge of understanding.

However, at the same time my answer is partly yes as well. It is true that only through conscious contemplation of concepts that we are able separate ourselves from mindless sheep or any other animal including the human animal. But again it does not take much and yet there are few among us that actively make time every day for consciously contemplating any subject difficult to understand.

GoshisDead;145834 wrote:
A real understanding of language and how it is cognitively processed would hold such a notion as specious at best. Language and semantics are not operations that can be in any way neatly divided between concepts. One must when relating language to human behavior must approach it through a sense of the applied semantic. What people actually act upon when they process any bit of information. These things are wrapped up in socio-cultural schema, cognitive schema, prototypical frames, target ideology etc... one cannot simply say, "oh freedom is not rights because it thought about it deeply"

As for the analogy of freedom being a subset of right, obviously this went awry, maybe try thinking deeply about it in the context of how freedom and rights are actually used within the language, culture and behavior, of those using the word.

Freedom is by its very nature a a relativistic word. It is a quality modifier, a state of being expression, applicable in a plethora of situations and completly valid in all of them. From an overprviliedged teen becoming "free from the oppession of my overbearing parents" to At this time I have "the freedom to choose which color of Prius I want." free/freedom is a direct modification/quality descriptor of state of being or implied state of being. It by its very grammatical nature is semantically and situationally relative. This is not even delving inot the affore mentioned series of contextual, and cognitive frames.


This last paragraph is almost my point exactly. Most people use the term freedom when actually they mean a specific right within their culture. However, when pressed I am sure they understand the difference.

---------- Post added 03-29-2010 at 05:42 PM ----------

Baal;145837 wrote:
Maybe ideas are nothing except the words that are used to convey them.


Were it not the case that ideas only partially exist in the universe you may be right. However, since words are completely dependent on the universe and ideas are not it is not possible that ideas originate from words.

---------- Post added 03-29-2010 at 05:47 PM ----------

PappasNick;145860 wrote:
The words themselves can be ideas.


Every thing is a combination of both the ideas and objects of creation, including words. Words always convey ideas but are unable to encompass any one idea.

---------- Post added 03-29-2010 at 05:51 PM ----------

Baal;145866 wrote:
In reality the consensus is that words and language have some kind of influence on thought; whether they precede thought, whether they form thought, whether thought is absolutely dependent on language etc. is a matter of debate.


It does not make sense that words would precede or form thought. How is that supposed to work? Is there a thread on that?
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 01:12 am
@trismegisto,
trismegisto;145885 wrote:
Not at all, not by a long stretch. It does not take any individual long to understand the plain difference between the two concepts of freedom and rights. These are simple concepts that we learn at a young age. I think that often times we tend to have a hard time letting things simply be what they are and our philosophy gets bogged down in minutia that hinders our knowledge of understanding.

However, at the same time my answer is partly yes as well. It is true that only through conscious contemplation of concepts that we are able separate ourselves from mindless sheep or any other animal including the human animal. But again it does not take much and yet there are few among us that actively make time every day for consciously contemplating any subject difficult to understand.



This last paragraph is almost my point exactly. Most people use the term freedom when actually they mean a specific right within their culture. However, when pressed I am sure they understand the difference.

---------- Post added 03-29-2010 at 05:42 PM ----------



Were it not the case that ideas only partially exist in the universe you may be right. However, since words are completely dependent on the universe and ideas are not it is not possible that ideas originate from words.

---------- Post added 03-29-2010 at 05:47 PM ----------



Every thing is a combination of both the ideas and objects of creation, including words. Words always convey ideas but are unable to encompass any one idea.

---------- Post added 03-29-2010 at 05:51 PM ----------



It does not make sense that words would precede or form thought. How is that supposed to work? Is there a thread on that?



They lost some particles in CERN. Delay 1 hour.
if words exits in the Univers what means Higgs:lol:
 
GoshisDead
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 09:53 am
@Pepijn Sweep,
Tris:
I don't even know how to respond to all the contradictions in that.
 
trismegisto
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 12:34 pm
@Pepijn Sweep,
Pepijn Sweep;146043 wrote:
They lost some particles in CERN. Delay 1 hour.
if words exits in the Univers what means Higgs:lol:



Scientists sure would love to find that higgs boson. Without it all their mathbooks are just as ridiculous as the bible. It is absolutely surprising how many people are devotees of the religion of math.
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 12:41 pm
@trismegisto,
trismegisto;146269 wrote:
Scientists sure would love to find that higgs boson. Without it all their mathbooks are just as ridiculous as the bible. It is absolutely surprising how many people are devotees of the religion of math.


Inthe hermetic writing there's a part where Hermes wants to sacrifice insence to Thot. Thot stops the son of Hermes with the remarks that's a waste of money and it doesn't help by praying.

Hermes Trimegistus was an adept of Thot and reacted how he had learned around him. Luckily Thot Himself was there to correct him.
 
trismegisto
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 01:22 pm
@Pepijn Sweep,
Pepijn Sweep;146273 wrote:
Inthe hermetic writing there's a part where Hermes wants to sacrifice insence to Thot. Thot stops the son of Hermes with the remarks that's a waste of money and it doesn't help by praying.

Hermes Trimegistus was an adept of Thot and reacted how he had learned around him. Luckily Thot Himself was there to correct him.


It was hard for Asclepius to wrap his mind around the fact that song and silence are the only proper sacrifices.

The hymns of silence are the best way to honor the infinite supreme.
 
PappasNick
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 04:19 pm
@Pepijn Sweep,
Pepijn Sweep;145868 wrote:
U do confuse me. Is it words or Ideas; or both? In Psychology of Law we learned a little. Still lawyers are thought to believe consiness comes before the acts like speech.:bigsmile:

Pepijn Sweep
junior


Along these lines Smile, what do you make of the opening of the Gospel of John?

Quote:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


"Word" in the original is "logos".
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 04:24 pm
@PappasNick,
Like Genesis I think
 
trismegisto
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 06:06 pm
@PappasNick,
PappasNick;146360 wrote:
Along these lines Smile, what do you make of the opening of the Gospel of John?



"Word" in the original is "logos".


Logos meaning reason.
 
PappasNick
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 06:31 pm
@trismegisto,
trismegisto;146385 wrote:
Logos meaning reason.


Yes. Logos also means word, I believe.
 
trismegisto
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 06:36 pm
@PappasNick,
PappasNick;146394 wrote:
Yes. Logos also means word, I believe.


To us yes, originally, no.
 
PappasNick
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 06:59 pm
@trismegisto,
trismegisto;146395 wrote:
To us yes, originally, no.


I think you may be mistaken. I just checked my Greek lexicon and it indicates that logos meant word in classical times. Sorry if you're talking about something else or if I've got it wrong.
 
trismegisto
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 07:10 pm
@PappasNick,
PappasNick;146403 wrote:
I think you may be mistaken. I just checked my Greek lexicon and it indicates that logos meant word in classical times. Sorry if you're talking about something else or if I've got it wrong.


As far as I am aware, word developed out of reason. I will have to check to be certain. I may be mistaken.
 
 

 
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